Power, Memory and Schematics

[oskda]

For me an important question is the difference in consumption and heat changing from 1.5 GHz to 1.2 GHz.

It may be we are to worry about getting 1.5 GHz, but finally it be a no optimal speed for hard and colling solution on Pyra.

Even now I don't know how much time Pyra can hold continuos 1.2 GHz (even from wall power) with NEON and other modules working.

Even for me it is interesting to launch at 1.2 GHz and invest money/time no on 1.5 GHz but in a new SOC with 64 bits and more advanced integration (less nm) so it gets lower temperaturee ansld consumption.

On other side I understand 1.5 GHz has been hyped in some way and it may be someone doesn't get happy with 1.2 altough it may be difference in real isn't too much (even less if heat is considered, when CPU has to slow frequency).

 

[TrashyMG]

On other side I understand 1.5 GHz has been hyped in some way

It's the default and advertised speed of the SoC, nothing hyped about it... That said currently it only runs at that speed when it needs it. Current configuration on the EVM devboard, it will run at 500MHz when Idle, ramp up to 1.5GHz when needed, current speeds are 500Mhz, 1Ghz and 1.5Ghz, though it's sort of easy to hack in any ranges between these.

 

[rygD]

I need to keep this in mind for when I finally get mine in my hands. By then others will have probably messed around with underclocking and such to figure out what is usable, so I will probably play around.

 

[TrashyMG]

Nikolaus in an email on the Kernel mailing list claims the OMAP5 works as low as 250MHz, although I'm not sure if he has tried lower.

root@letux:~#

This was done with these OPP:

&cpu0 {
operating-points = <
/* kHz uV */
250000 800000
500000 850000
750000 950000
1000000 1050000
// 1250000 1150000
// 1500000 1250000
// 1700000 1250000
>;
};

 

[Grench]

Also, the prototype preorders will get them but will also get an updated CPU board later.

I know it will be a some time before these ship, but I had a few thoughts wrapped around shipping expenses. Also, I had been considering purchasing a production unit at some point so that the prototype unit could experience less daily wear.

Since shipping LiPo batteries is a pain that is already getting covered in the primary prototype unit shipping, I would like to order/purchase a 2nd battery to be shipped with my prototype (so the battery doesn't have to ship at high prices later).

Then, some day when you're ready to send out the 1.5GHz upgrade boards to the prototype purchasers, I may want to purchase additional 'stuff' from your store to add to that in order to save separate shipping.

If all of that is a pain, I can go through normal channels - I just hate having to pay international shipping any more times than necessary.

I'm putting the idea out in public since I don't know who the other prototype purchasers are but thought they might also be interested in purchasing an additional part or coffee mug to ship with their prototype too. I already have the Pyra coffee mug.

Thanks!
[doublepost=1480094437,1480089117][/doublepost]

And I will also sell some more of these prototypes in case someone wants to get a unit earlier (also for a higher price, but also with a free upgrade to the fixed CPU board later).

Maybe do these 'extra' prototypes through an auction format to maximize that price? In theory, the risk is considerably lower now than it was for the initial prototype purchasers. Following that theory, these additional few prototype units should bring in -more- per unit than the original prototype pre-orders did.

 

[NetBLOKS]

Maybe do these 'extra' prototypes through an auction format to maximize that price? In theory, the risk is considerably lower now than it was for the initial prototype purchasers. Following that theory, these additional few prototype units should bring in -more- per unit than the original prototype pre-orders did.

I second that. Better to benefit the project. I can wait for my Pyra.

I hope FreeBSD may be able to run on the Pyra someday (probably in the distant future). But I'd be happy to run Linux on it for gaming, development and some productivity until that time.

FreeBSD would be awesome. It's the reason why I miss the rotator-chip.

 

[levi]

FreeBSD should be able to set up the CPU's tiler to rotate the display using the same code that Linux uses I'd have thought. Why else would you want a rotator chip to run FreeBSD?

 

[NetBLOKS]

Exactly as you said. If it will work to implement the code without much trouble, I will be happy with the solution.

 

[Orbstheorem]

@EvilDragon, @hns If you're making a new revision of the board, can you please consider exposing the 4 MIPI CSI lines on board to board a connector?

I'm definitely planning to use the Pyra as a phone, and I'd love to be able to take great pictures and edit them right away.

I understand the problem with space, but I think people would love to have the posibility to add a great camera later on. Maybe you can allocate another side connector just containing the camera lines, or have them replace some GPIO.

 

[Kippykip]

@EvilDragon, @hns If you're making a new revision of the board, can you please consider exposing the 4 MIPI CSI lines on board to board a connector?

I'm definitely planning to use the Pyra as a phone, and I'd love to be able to take great pictures and edit them right away.

I understand the problem with space, but I think people would love to have the posibility to add a great camera later on. Maybe you can allocate another side connector just containing the camera lines, or have them replace some GPIO.

I'm still stuck on a flipphone, the pyra would be a killer replacement for me!
I just hope the 1.5ghz issue will be solved.

 

[Luke-Jr]

We should not waste time with another fruitless pro/con license battle.

Then just concede and approve a free license.

It is the basic right of the authors to freely choose a license. It is neither the licensees nor the general public having different ideas or wishes who does the choice. Go out and become creative, publish your own work and documents, and choose the license you believe it is the right one for your own work!

Are we Pyra preorders not funding the creation of it? This seems excessively insulting to those of us who are paying for the Pyra. One of the Pyra's selling points was that it would be open hardware, and now it sounds like you're backing out of it.

 

[WizardStan]

One of the Pyra's selling points was that it would be open hardware

I don't see anything to suggest that it isn't open hardware. You can take these documents, recreate everything entirely on your own, modify it if you want or not, and sell it if you so choose. What more do you need?

 

[D32_bobjob]

Then just concede and approve a free license.

Are we Pyra preorders not funding the creation of it? This seems excessively insulting to those of us who are paying for the Pyra. One of the Pyra's selling points was that it would be open hardware, and now it sounds like you're backing out of it.

We preorders are people paying for a product, EvilDragon and hns are some of the people doing the creating stuff. Thus they have some stakes in this as well and we should accept there decisions as long as they are not fraud, which so far they are NOT.
The hardware is open, so is the documentation. E.g. you get the schematics (for free) and can use knowledge gathered from it to modify the pyra or create your own stuff(that is how I define open HW).

If you are insultet by their approach/taken choices ... well, I think you mixed something up. Because with that declaration you (at a minimum) insulted yourself (IMHO).

 

[bzar]

Then just concede and approve a free license.

You shouldn't try to badger good people into doing things your way like this. For shame.

They are being more than fair with the licensing. If it doesn't match your personal definition of open hardware, it doesn't. It does mine. A preorder is just that, a preorder for the device. It's not a stake in the company that entitles you to a say in how it's run.

 

[sulu]

One of the Pyra's selling points was that it would be open hardware,

Is that so? I know, a lot of people were always hoping that, but has there ever been an official statement that the Pyra would meet the requirements of being considered OSH?

I don't see anything to suggest that it isn't open hardware.

The ND clause in the license for the design files clearly makes it unfit to be considered OSH as defined by the OSHWA [1], which I would consider to be the most reputable reference for an OSH definition.
If you know of any other OSH definition that allows for ND designs, then I'd be honestly interested in seeing that.

You can take these documents, recreate everything entirely on your own, modify it if you want or not, and sell it if you so choose.

No, you can't modify and redistribute the design.

The hardware is open, so is the documentation. E.g. you get the schematics (for free) and can use knowledge gathered from it to modify the pyra or create your own stuff(that is how I define open HW)

If everyone comes up with his own definition of things then defining them in the first place makes no sense.
What's wrong with the OSHWA definition?

You shouldn't try to badger good people into doing things your way like this. For shame.

I'm not sure Luke is doing that. Somehow he gained the expectation that the Pyra would be OSH. If it turns out not to be, I think it's understandable, that he's disappointed. That disappointment is all I'm seeing in his post so far.
Now it's up to him to prove that this expectations were justified, e.g. by citing an official statement that says the Pyra would meet the requirements of OSH.


[1] http://www.oshwa.org/definition/

 

[bzar]

Is that so? I know, a lot of people were always hoping that, but has there ever been an official statement that the Pyra would meet the requirements of being considered OSH?
I'm not sure Luke is doing that. Somehow he gained the expectation that the Pyra would be OSH. If it turns out not to be, I think it's understandable, that he's disappointed. That disappointment is all I'm seeing in his post so far.

Maybe not intentionally, but the options he leaves open are continuing the debate ad nauseam or conceding to his demands. I count that as badgering. The team has already given their statement regarding the issue for now, so continuing the debate would be pointless. Unless, of course, they have explicitly expressed the intention to make everything OSH according to OSHWA's definition, as you said.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Most things we buy are closed, and nobody complains.
Here we have an open device made with good spirit and here come the whiners.

 

[Nilsnsn]

No, you can't modify and redistribute the design.

Yes you can. But you have te give credit to the original authors and point out your modifications - thats BY. You have to use the same license for redistribution - thats SA. And you can't take money for the documents - that's NC.

 

[sulu]

Maybe not intentionally, but the options he leaves open are continuing the debate ad nauseam or conceding to his demands. I count that as badgering.

Fair point.
Let's see if Luke comes up with an official citation, that turns his unfounded hope (which I'm not blaming him for) into a justified expectation.

Most things we buy are closed, and nobody complains.
Here we have an open device made with good spirit and here come the whiners.

I don't like this relative approach of comparing things to worse things, for the sake of pointing out how good the former is. A thing can be much better than all the alternatives, and still have flaws.
I don't see pointing out these flaws as whining if there is a better way of doing it.
Now, don't get me wrong, I know that there is no clear definition of "better", especially in this case. The Pyra devs obviously have a different opinion on that than Luke, but that doesn't automatically disqualify Luke's opinion. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree and move on.

Yes you can. But you have te give credit to the original authors and point out your modifications - thats BY. You have to use the same license for redistribution - thats SA. And you can't take money for the documents - that's NC.

Yay! I finally mixed up NC and ND here.
Thanks for pointing that out! Of course you're right, the license is not ND, so distributing modifications is fine. But it's NC instead, which still doesn't meet the OSHWA's criteria.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

I'm comparing attitudes.