Power, Memory and Schematics

[Letalis Sonus]

If I have to study a previous project of someone else to learn how to solve specific problems in my current project, then I'm obviously creating a derivative work of the studied project in my mind.
If I write down these thoughts then this document becomes a derivative work of the studied project.

Unless a legally binding definition of a derivative work is included in the CC license, the term is defined by applicable law - and that is the problem. I don't know of any country whose law is up-to-date in this matter and actually provides a clear definition - which makes every statement concerning the definition of a derivative work in the context of digital data absolutely invalid if it does not originate from an actual court ruling. That's exactly what makes the GPL a legal gray area as well, it uses derivative work as a predefined legal term without providing any kind of clarification. That's what my follow-up question was intended to address.

 

[shaddim]

On that note, possibly the CERN Open Hardware License (Mentioned above as well) would be a good choice. http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cernohl/wiki From their brief overview it sounds similar to the GPL. Which means you could charge money for it, but would have to provide the schematics under the same terms.

Yes having the schematic itself under a proper hardware license would be a great plus.

* NC prevents that somebody else places the documents on a server behind a paywall.

Yes, but this prevents also the adding on free-to-share places like wikipedia or the creative commons, which allow as most restrictive license the CC-BY-SA.

* and even if you have commercial ideas, don't think in worst case scenarios. Even with NC you can simply ask to get an individual license. It may even be for free (as in free beer) if you ask politely... We do not want to cut your freedom (of speech) and ideas. We only want to know if someone makes something interesting out of it and remain able to decide case by case.
* for details about the license please read: https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/ https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/legalcode

Well, as orphaned works are a serious problem with copyrighted works, consider please a automated unrestricted release at the time when an commercial value is highly improbable...e.g. 5 years (time-bomb license).

The SA clause on its own is pretty good at suppressing commercial exploitation, it seems to me -- with the GPL the primary ways to make money seem to be via technical support or via relicensing. How often do savvy people pay for SuperTuxKart or Xonotic, even modified versions of them?

Yes, especial the AGPL was utilized for making money by relicensing. "Releasing to the public under a free copyleft license, selling under a non-copyleft license for money"

I note that the Neo900 schematics (http://neo900.org/stuff/kicad/proto_v2/2016-11-20/neo900__proto_v2__by_eeshow.pdf) are CC-BY-SA, not CC-BY-NC-SA. The Neo900 appears to be a similar project to the Pyra, so what does the NC provide the Pyra that the Neo900 does not have?

True, I hope the Pyra documents can be released under such a license in the forseeable future, at best with an automatism.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Well the Devboard can certainly with a custom Device tree setup, it's not an issue with OMAP5 SoC.

I run the EVM and IGEP at 1.7GHz flawlessly with a better heatsink (60°C at full load).

 

[EvilDragon]

Shouldn't TI provide all these data to their Chips? It's their job, not yours, to fiddle out under which conditions these Chips do run. Almost every hardware comes with such information, power conditions are mandatory imho. What is TI for a "Saftladen"...

We only got the okay to use the OMAP5 by not getting any support. Otherwise, you'd have to buy at least 100k of them, as it is with other manufacturers.

TI would make a loss providing support to companies who only buy small quantities.

Still, we get unofficial support from some working at TI, which is great

 

[Splintercat]

We only got the okay to use the OMAP5 by not getting any support. Otherwise, you'd have to buy at least 100k of them, as it is with other manufacturers.

TI would make a loss providing support to companies who only buy small quantities.

Still, we get unofficial support from some working at TI, which is great

I hope you and everyone else won't have too much trouble finding the solution to the 1.2 GHz issue.

 

[diligentcircle]

Even with NC you can simply ask to get an individual license.

That's assuming everyone that holds some copyright to the work can be contacted. This may be impossible if people start making modifications under the non-commercial license. That's why, as I said, I implore you to add the ND clause if you're going to insist on using a proprietary license for it (and make no mistake, it is 100% proprietary).

We only want to know if someone makes something interesting out of it and remain able to decide case by case.

Then why are you using a license that allows modifications? And at that, modifications that must include a restriction on you? If you actually want to approve every change people make, use ND and have any contributor assign copyright to you. If you want freedom of collaboration, use an actually libre license. You're not gaining any acceptance points from anybody by using CC BY-NC-SA, except maybe die-hard Communists, and it doesn't make any sense over BY-NC-ND from any pragmatic angle, either (unless your actual intention is to oppose capitalism).

 

[hns]

We should not waste time with another fruitless pro/con license battle.

It is the basic right of the authors to freely choose a license. It is neither the licensees nor the general public having different ideas or wishes who does the choice. Go out and become creative, publish your own work and documents, and choose the license you believe it is the right one for your own work!

We might reconsider the license when the first real Pyra user comes and shows up a real world and significant problem with the license that can not be solved otherwise. We will not change it just for ideologic or theoretical reasons. It is far more important that the Pyra is finished and that you can already start to study the schematics (which you definitively can with this license) to e.g. improve and port software because you know which gpio is connected where (there will also be a table for the Wiki).

Regarding the 1.x GHz issue we are analyzing to find the root cause with the somehow limited tools we have. It is like experimental science to find out what is going on in a "grey box" until we find our "Higgs boson". But we are in a better situation than CERN because we already know that it exists (the OMAP542EVM runs with 1.5GHz or even more).

 

[ThinkPad]

1. The case

The final changes have now all been implemented. FormAction plans to produce a bunch of cases tomorrow (at least thirty, so enough for all prototypes).
They also already created the molds for the silicon that's needed to seal the speakers, and hopefully we'll get those preapplied to the cases as well.

Can't wait for them
Once we got them and the keymats, I can finally build the prototype units for devs and the ones who ordererd one.
We might sell a few more of them as well, but not before they're ready to be shipped.

When we can expect some pictures/videos of a completely assembled working unit (even if its down-clocked to a 1.2 GHz), with the final case, keymat, touchscreen and so on...?

Keep up the good work!

Best Regards,

 

[Bosbeetle]

We should not waste time with another fruitless pro/con license battle.

Indeed, to me you guys are the most open company (definetly the most op company making an linux handheld computer) I know, which is totally awesome.
Keep up the great work!

 

[EvilDragon]

When we can expect some pictures/videos of a completely assembled working unit (even if its down-clocked to a 1.2 GHz), with the final case, keymat, touchscreen and so on...?

Well, as soon as it arrives
Display with touchscreen is already there, final keymat will not look THAT much different than the current one (the changes will just be regarding the tactile feedback, but you can't see that), the CPU boards are already there and the Mainboards should be finished in a couple of weeks as well, I could temporarily use an old mainboard as well.

 

[gpsqueeek]

Thank you for your transparency regarding the process, this is much appreciated. You now have one more pre-order
I can see you are more willing to finish the Pyra properly even if it means some delay rather than shipping a flawed product : that is also a very good reason for me to follow you. Cheers to the team !

 

[Yuji Sakai]

Are you able with current parts do an 8GB version? I would buy that, and perhaps a few people.
Are the batches ready to be sent now or I have several day to order and fit into first batch?

 

[fusion_power]

We only got the okay to use the OMAP5 by not getting any support. Otherwise, you'd have to buy at least 100k of them, as it is with other manufacturers.

TI would make a loss providing support to companies who only buy small quantities.

Still, we get unofficial support from some working at TI, which is great

OK, I understand that you don't have full support for such a (ompared) small project but some general public specs about voltages 'n stuff should be avaiable anyways? I hope they don't charge 100K minimum quantity only for getting a propper manual.

 

[EvilDragon]

OK, I understand hat youdonät have full support for such a (ompared) small project but some general public specs about voltages 'n stuff should be avaiable anyways? I hope they don't charge 100K minimum quantity only for getting a propper manual.

There's no special manual for that. There are guidelines with examples that can help you, but as that heavily depends on trace lengths, amount of layers, etc., there's no "use this and it'll work" solution.

 

[AnimatedFreak]

Well I always had the position that I rather wait for a good quality unit instead of a rushed one. So take your time, also take a nap when you need it

 

[rSl]

thanks for the latest update!

fingers crossed here for finding the right 1.5gz secret-sauce.
don't rush the final release if there are any major restrictions hw-wise, but
for development prototypes it should be initially good enough that things can be done with it, leading to more things...
i really like that there 'are' at least any schematics to look at and learn from them. (not that i'm able to learn from them, but that's another story...
raspberry pi 2 and 3 schematics are still not being released by the raspberry pi foundation, to my knowledge.
i really would love to have the hw-docs fully open too, as shareing is about letting loose of control somehow.
but first we need some pyras in the wild and then we should debate of freeing it all, right!?

aaand... ed, get some sleep, now!

 

[rSl]

BTW, is there any news about heating?

if you ask trump's climate 'experts', no.

 

[Grench]

We should not waste time with another fruitless pro/con license battle.

It is the basic right of the authors to freely choose a license. It is neither the licensees nor the general public having different ideas or wishes who does the choice. Go out and become creative, publish your own work and documents, and choose the license you believe it is the right one for your own work!

We might reconsider the license when the first real Pyra user comes and shows up a real world and significant problem with the license that can not be solved otherwise. We will not change it just for ideologic or theoretical reasons. It is far more important that the Pyra is finished and that you can already start to study the schematics (which you definitively can with this license) to e.g. improve and port software because you know which gpio is connected where (there will also be a table for the Wiki).

I hope you don't mind if I stand up and applaud those statements. Very well stated Sir!

Regarding the 1.x GHz issue we are analyzing to find the root cause with the somehow limited tools we have. It is like experimental science to find out what is going on in a "grey box" until we find our "Higgs boson". But we are in a better situation than CERN because we already know that it exists (the OMAP542EVM runs with 1.5GHz or even more).

A valid temptation would be to launch production with 1.2GHz hardware - or at least crank out the prototypes using it. The 1.5 GHz systems boards could then be the first upgrade if/when the issues are worked through. It sounds like 1.2GHz is potentially stable enough to ship? That would lead into a 'human issue' though of convincing people to continue their orders for 1.2GHz instead of 1.5GHz and that it is OK and acceptable to do so. Waiting for the 'eureka moment' to sort out the 1.5GHz blocking flake of gold traces or which line needs just a bit bigger capacitor or other sounds like a bit of an indefinable situation. It is theoretically solvable, but there is a hypothetical practical limit on how long the overall device can wait for that boost too.

Well, as soon as it arrives
Display with touchscreen is already there, final keymat will not look THAT much different than the current one (the changes will just be regarding the tactile feedback, but you can't see that), the CPU boards are already there and the Mainboards should be finished in a couple of weeks as well, I could temporarily use an old mainboard as well.

I'm looking forward to seeing a fully assembled and functioning 1.2GHz Pyra running. Keep up the great work!

 

[D32_bobjob]

Please don't even think about sending out a 1.2 GHz version, please.

@Grench(and others who want some thing fast): We know that 1.5GHz is possible(eval boards), thus everything less indicates a problem(sofar a unknown one). Maybe even a problem that can happen with 1.2GHz later on, after some aging.

 

[rygD]

1.7GHz or death.