possible soc updates.

[Binky]

4000mAh @3.7V or 7.4V?

clovertrail came close and baytrail will follow through.

I'd assume sebt3 is making a comparison with the pandora1, so that's 4Ah @ 3.7v = 15Wh = about a watt for the whole device

 

[monstercameron]

a regular user shouldnt have to depend on another member to port a program.

Every platform has developers and consumers

iOS users depend on iOS devs to write apps for them, etc, etc

that's a given, that is why I said port.

 

[_wb_]

Purely technically speaking, I like ARM more than x86 because it is a cleaner instruction set - less legacy clutter, nicer register space, etc.

In terms of software support, I don't care, because things can be compiled for any platform. In some cases (e.g. emulators) there is some assembler optimization going on - so it might be a good idea to use x86 or ARM and not something more exotic.

I don't really see any actual advantages to x86. Being able to run closed-source binaries is not much of an advantage, since those binaries will not be designed for low-power small-screen handhelds with a relatively weak CPU and GPU. Maybe you want to run closed-source ARM binaries instead. Or just stick to retro and open source stuff.

In deciding on a SoC, I care about perf, perf/Watt, price and availability. I don't care much about architecture, but all else being equal, I'd pick ARM because it's a nice design (technically speaking).

how can you not care about the uarch? it dictates compatibility and legacy support. Unless you are building all the applications yourself, the uarch choice will be important.

open pandora doesn't have a bright future if it gets so little support. the current OP is catered to those in the know, the ones who can debug and cross compile onto the device. a regular user shouldnt have to depend on another member to port a program.

I don't know any architecture that does not have any GNU/Linux distro.

 

[sebt3]

a regular user shouldnt have to depend on another member to port a program.

Every platform has developers and consumers

iOS users depend on iOS devs to write apps for them, etc, etc

that's a given, that is why I said port.

A port isn't just a few commands away and done. Even for desktop apps, you need to hack the code to get something worthy. I was somewhat expecting a simple compile when I built gparted (being a desktop app). It took me a full week to find and fix the few bugs I was having...If a regular user dont want to depend on someone else for ports, he should learn coding asap...

 

[God Ginrai]

One of the issues with the Pandora was a lot of people saw it as a Emulation gaming handheld with an after thought of it being a UMPC. Problem is , as a gaming handheld, it's a hard sell for the $'s it costs, as a UMPC the price is about right. It's always been my opinion that if the Pandora was to sell more , it needs to be pushed more as a UMPC. A P2 with a Bay Trail SOC will allow it to run Linux, Android and Windows 8.1. The ability to run Windows 8.1 (As well as Linux) will give it that extra bit of boost it needs to be seen more (or at least equally) as a UMPC, which it needs to do to sell for it's asking price. That, and it will also bring in new additional customers who are after a Windows 8..1 handheld.

ie from a business(sales) point of view, a Bay Trail based P2 makes a lot more sense than an ARM based P2.

The Pandora was made by distributors of a homebrew gaming community for homebrew gaming and emulation. The Pandora was not a hard sale because it was marketed as a gaming handheld, it was a hard sale because of horrible delays early on (and some people never even getting their device) as well as the fact that when the system finally did get stable production, phones already had better SoCs and could be purchased cheaper through your cell phone company.

I want to see a new gaming handheld not a pc. There are tons of PCs in the market, but not very many handheld gaming devices.

Yes i was thinking about the same.

But if no company would sell an ARM SOC for a Pandora 2 what will gonna do ?

I think (like i said before) search and insisting research again for an interesting ARM SOC and ask if the company would sell to us...and if not....go for Intel

I think you are misunderstanding something. It won't be hard for EvilDragon to get a hold of an ARM SoC. It will just be hard for him to get his hands on the really nice ARM SoC's. (Although I fully believe that ED will find a way to get one)

-God Ginrai

 

[Binky]

I think you are misunderstanding something. It won't be hard for EvilDragon to get a hold of an ARM SoC. It will just be hard for him to get his hands on the really nice ARM SoC's. (Although I fully believe that ED will find a way to get one)

Which is easier to find in small quantities:

• Good x86 SoCs
• Good ARM SoCs

?

 

[God Ginrai]

I think you are misunderstanding something. It won't be hard for EvilDragon to get a hold of an ARM SoC. It will just be hard for him to get his hands on the really nice ARM SoC's. (Although I fully believe that ED will find a way to get one)

 Which is easier to find in small quantities:

• Good x86 SoCs
• Good ARM SoCs

?

AFAIK, good ARM SoCs. This is due to the fact that ARM licenses its processors and because of this there are multiple companies all making their own ARM chips. This creates more outlets you can get ARM SoCs from.

-God Ginrai

 

[Grench]

One of the issues with the Pandora was a lot of people saw it as a Emulation gaming handheld with an after thought of it being a UMPC.  Problem is , as a gaming handheld, it's a hard sell for the $'s it costs, as a UMPC the price is about right.  It's always been my opinion that if the Pandora was to sell more , it needs to be pushed more as a UMPC.  A P2 with a Bay Trail SOC will allow it to run  Linux, Android and Windows 8.1.  The ability to run Windows 8.1 (As well as Linux) will give it that extra bit of boost it needs to be seen more (or at least equally) as a UMPC, which it needs to do to sell for it's asking price.  That, and it will also bring in new additional customers who are after a Windows 8..1 handheld.    

ie from a business(sales) point of view, a Bay Trail based P2 makes a lot more sense than an ARM based P2.

Very true.  There are lots of cheap 'Linux gaming handhelds' out there.  Frankly, I don't see any reason to play in that space.  Where the Pandora shines is that it crosses over between the two worlds of 'Pocket Linux General Use Computer' and 'Linux Gaming Handheld'.  It is by serving both of those audiences well that make the machine special.

 

[Grench]

The only reason that would make x86 pandora somewhat conviencing is the ability to run pc softwares, but it would always be a watered down experience. Half an hour of half life 2 with 320p resolution and slideshow framerate is not a good gaming session to me. No need to mention what would happen if I want to make a powerpoint presentation with that. Even the funniest grannie punching joke would go stale after being referenced 20 times in a row in an attampt to distract my audience from how sluggish an experience it is.

Sure X86 has decent ps2 and sega saturn emulators, that's if you are running them on a gaming pc with "dedicated" graphics cards.

I would rather have a slightly more powerful pandora than a quarter arsed linux pc that fails to do anything decently and makes me want to go back to my laptop.

So -  you think we're talking about putting in a 10 year old Atom chip?

The SoC in question is a hot off the shelf 22nm Z3770 64bit quad core SoC with 4GB RAM and a 2-3W envelope for $37 a throw (plus RAM cost).

Where do you get the 320p resolution slide show for Half Life?  My expectations are 720p @ 30fps in OpenGL under 64bit Linux & Steam, but since nobody has actually tried that yet, I don't have any basis for that.

Your powerpoint should run just fine - from what I'm seeing this should perform as well or better than a generic core2duo notebook did.  Lets be clear on this though - Windows isn't the objective.  If someone wants to load Windows on their hardware, that's fine.  I don't think a Pandora successor should ship with anything but Linux though - preferably Ubuntu - though I would change mine to Mint pretty quickly.

The OpenGL graphics are apparently similar in capability to a GeForce 7800GT.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7314/intel-baytrail-preview-intel-atom-z3770-tested/2

Frankly I couldn't care less if it runs PS2 and/or Saturn emulators or not.

This SoC a world away from the original Atom chips.  Should you expect the performance of a $2000 modern gaming X86 desktop with dual graphics cards and SSD storage?  Not in the slightest.  Somewhere in the capability range of a Core 2 duo machine?  Maybe.  If it even has the umph of the old dual core Pentium era, then it's crossed a threshold from novelty to usable.

The OQO failed for many reasons.  CPU, battery life, lack of gaming controls.  This SoC, in theory, fixes the CPU and about 50% of the battery life issue.  Blended with Pandora-like controls - I like it.

 

[3_bit]

The only reason that would make x86 pandora somewhat conviencing is the ability to run pc softwares, but it would always be a watered down experience. Half an hour of half life 2 with 320p resolution and slideshow framerate is not a good gaming session to me. No need to mention what would happen if I want to make a powerpoint presentation with that. Even the funniest grannie punching joke would go stale after being referenced 20 times in a row in an attampt to distract my audience from how sluggish an experience it is.

Sure X86 has decent ps2 and sega saturn emulators, that's if you are running them on a gaming pc with "dedicated" graphics cards.

I would rather have a slightly more powerful pandora than a quarter arsed linux pc that fails to do anything decently and makes me want to go back to my laptop.

So -  you think we're talking about putting in a 10 year old Atom chip?

The SoC in question is a hot off the shelf 22nm Z3770 64bit quad core SoC with 4GB RAM and a 2-3W envelope for $37 a throw (plus RAM cost).

Where do you get the 320p resolution slide show for Half Life?  My expectations are 720p @ 30fps in OpenGL under 64bit Linux & Steam, but since nobody has actually tried that yet, I don't have any basis for that.

Your powerpoint should run just fine - from what I'm seeing this should perform as well or better than a generic core2duo notebook did.  Lets be clear on this though - Windows isn't the objective.  If someone wants to load Windows on their hardware, that's fine.  I don't think a Pandora successor should ship with anything but Linux though - preferably Ubuntu - though I would change mine to Mint pretty quickly.

The OpenGL graphics are apparently similar in capability to a GeForce 7800GT.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7314/intel-baytrail-preview-intel-atom-z3770-tested/2

Frankly I couldn't care less if it runs PS2 and/or Saturn emulators or not.

This SoC a world away from the original Atom chips.  Should you expect the performance of a $2000 modern gaming X86 desktop with dual graphics cards and SSD storage?  Not in the slightest.  Somewhere in the capability range of a Core 2 duo machine?  Maybe.  If it even has the umph of the old dual core Pentium era, then it's crossed a threshold from novelty to usable.

The OQO failed for many reasons.  CPU, battery life, lack of gaming controls.  This SoC, in theory, fixes the CPU and about 50% of the battery life issue.  Blended with Pandora-like controls - I like it.

Where there's HL2 there's TF2. I know my Sandy-bridge pentium can churn out, at an absolute minimum, with an Intel HD 2000 GFX chip, a reliable 15-30 FPS on low settings, and that's with textures on Medium. It's a lot faster on L4D2, surprisingly, where I get 30-40 FPS. I would pay about $850 for a Pandora that could run these games reliably. I already have $400 for upgrading my desktop so I can run Star Citizen, and I don't intend on ever having a pocket device to play that, so I'll settle for TF2 L4D2 and GMOD, which is most of what I play. If the OP2 can do those, count me in for a good $800 preorder.

If we could appeal to PC gamers on the go (the market which will/may be dominated by the Razer Switchblade), we could get a lot of money. Sure, the OP is unique, can game and do all the other things, but let's face it: It isn't a far cry from an Android phone/tablet with the ICP2, which is, I believe now cheaper, hardware-wise, and has a lot more software, albeit it may lack the emulators.

 

[Binky]

a 2-3W envelope

My entire pandora uses 0.5W idle, 1.2W with radios off and screen dim but full CPU load, 2W with everything going at once.

I'm going to guess that that puts the SOC's max power consumption between 1W and 1.5W

If I'm correct, and your figures are correct,  that x86 SOC has twice the power consumption of our current ARM one.

I'm not happy with half the battery life or double the battery size.

 

[Exophase]

Frankly I couldn't care less if it runs PS2 and/or Saturn emulators or not.

I'm glad we've established that this is all about what you want. Probably many people here would trade all your Steam games for a good PS2 or Saturn emulator.

Not that x86 doesn't have better prospects for PS2 emulation at the moment - Saturn is probably more of a tossup,

BTW, please don't talk about 10 year old Atoms, the chip debuted in 2008.

 

[kuru]

Frankly I couldn't care less if it runs PS2 and/or Saturn emulators or not.

I'm glad we've established that this is all about what you want. Probably many people here would trade all your Steam games for a good PS2 or Saturn emulator.


Not that x86 doesn't have better prospects for PS2 emulation at the moment - Saturn is probably more of a tossup,


BTW, please don't talk about 10 year old Atoms, the chip debuted in 2008.

Holy moly, Saturn on the go would kick tremendous ass.. Dragon Force, Panzer Dragoon 1, 2 and especially Saga, Manx TT, Nights into Dreams, SEGA Rally, Three Dirty Dwarves, Shining in the Holy Ark, Guardian Heroes, Radiant Silvergun, Layer Section, In the Hunt, Mystaria, Enemy Zero, Story of Thor 2, House of the Dead, Virtua Cop, Dark Savior, Deep Fear, Burning Rangers and the Shining games *catches breath*

Apart from Saturn gems I'd also like me some meatboy for example, or System Shock 2, Deus Ex, TIE Fighter, Neverwinter Nights&Co to throw in a few closed source titles.

One can dream, can't they?

Edit: Plus, never forget the possibility of markting this as a genuine UMPC that would possibly be considered by companies if it was able to run windows, give you proper Citrix (SAP in your pocket!) and network integration.

 

[Grench]

a 2-3W envelope

My entire pandora uses 0.5W idle, 1.2W with radios off and screen dim but full CPU load, 2W with everything going at once.

I'm going to guess that that puts the SOC's max power consumption between 1W and 1.5W

If I'm correct, and your figures are correct,  that x86 SOC has twice the power consumption of our current ARM one.

I'm not happy with half the battery life or double the battery size.

You know we're talking about a chip that has something on the order of 20 times the processing power of the one in the Pandora - right?

You could, in theory, throttle it back (underclock) or shut down 2-3 of the 4 cores in use and get it -under- the Pandora's TDP and still have way more processing power.

That is why performance per watt is so important - not just maximums.

Completely different animal.

Yes, if you run performance benchmarks or something else to tap 100% of the CPU continuously, the Z3770 would consume 2-3 times more power per minute than the existing Pandora architecture.  It would also, in theory, be doing >20 times the work.

In -theory- for doing the same tasks, this CPU could use -less- power because it only runs 'full out' for 5% of the time.

 

[Binky]

[citation needed]

(Not that I'm accusing you of untruths, or anything - I'd just like to see your sources )

 

[Grench]

[citation needed]


(Not that I'm accusing you of untruths, or anything - I'd just like to see your sources )

OK.  Everything is new enough here that there isn't anything that puts them in the same spreadsheet.

OMAP3530 Sunspider = 9397 ms.

http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/Android_Comparative_Benchmarks

Intel Z3770 Sunspider = 531.6 ms.

http://www.legitreviews.com/intel-atom-processor-z3770-bay-trail-first-look-and-performance-testing_123335/3

OK, so 20 times faster was an exaggeration.  Just not much of one.

 

[Binky]

What's a Z3770's idle power?

I'm considering how much energy each SOC needs to run at a given rate of computation:

If we say the sunspider test is one unit of computation

Our OMAP3 can do one unit in ten seconds while drawing 1.2W

A Z3770 can do one unit in ten seconds, drawing (0.95*idlepower + 0.05*2.5) = ?

I'm trying to consider the battery life while doing the things that, on a pandora, use most of CPU.

 

[God Ginrai]

Also, I'd like to see comparisons with this Intel Chip alongside newer ARM offerings as well as the Pandora's SoC. That way, we can see how both compare to what the Pandora currently has.

-God Ginrai

 

[Grench]

What's a Z3770's idle power?

I'm considering how much energy each SOC needs to run at a given rate of computation:

If we say the sunspider test is one unit of computation

Our OMAP3 can do one unit in ten seconds while drawing 1.2W

A Z3770 can do one unit in ten seconds, drawing (0.95*idlepower + 0.05*2.5) = ?

I'm trying to consider the battery life while doing the things that, on a pandora, use most of CPU.

I don't know what it's idle power is.  Apparently single threaded power draw is 800-1200 mW.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7314/intel-baytrail-preview-intel-atom-z3770-tested/2

It looks like it's only when you get all 4 cores going that you get into the 2.5W range?

Also, I'd like to see comparisons with this Intel Chip alongside newer ARM offerings as well as the Pandora's SoC. That way, we can see how both compare to what the Pandora currently has.

-God Ginrai

I have no idea - but the fact is, this SoC has, on paper, the capabilities that put it within the realms of being possibly being a really good option.

To ignore it out of hand because it's X86 - or to make assumptions that it simply won't work without examining it would potentially be a mistake.

I like what I've seen so far of it - but it's so new that there isn't much out there yet.  I was really happy that I found any benchmark at all that could compare the two.  I haven't said that we have to use this - but that it should given serious consideration.  It is a new animal - and old assumptions about X86 are out the window.

 

[Binky]

don't know what it's idle power is. Apparently single threaded power draw is 800-1200 mW. http://www.anandtech...-z3770-tested/2

Is sunspider multithreaded at all?

If you can really get 20x (or even 5x if your benchmark is multithreaded while your applications aren't) a pandora's performance on 1.2W, I'm impressed