Pedophilia

[LHC]

I've already said that paedophilia was never an issue. Unfortunately child molestation remains one.

On this side of things, I'd like to see see the parents consenting too.

 

[Mark]

I believe that was what he was talking about. Don't know what you mean by getting parents to consent though.

 

[LHC]

If a child molester says "Hay can i fuck your child" and then they reply "yeah sure". Never going to happen, mind you.

Obviously in other cases it would be an initiation of force, which is what the government should be there to stop.

 

[Mark]

If a child molester says "Hay can i fuck your child" and then they reply "yeah sure". Never going to happen, mind you.

Obviously in other cases it would be an initiation of force, which is what the government should be there to stop.

I really do not understand what the point you're trying to make is; if it's the parents agree, their child can be buggered senseless?

 

[raven]

If a child molester says "Hay can i fuck your child" and then they reply "yeah sure". Never going to happen, mind you.

Maybe you should check out some foreign countries were this happens every day. When people don't have money to feed themselves they sometimes do silly things.

You obviously don't agree with these laws, feeling they limit the freedom to do what you want with your own body but you forget when and why these laws have been instated. They are not there to stop children from doing what they want to do, they are there to make sure children can't be forced to do things they don't want to do. They have been enstated because parents, employers and children can not be trusted to deal with this themselves. It is quite easy to put pressure on children or simply talk them into doing things they normally would not want to do or that they will regret later in life.

There is a limitation: you are forced to be a child untill the age of sixteen to ensure you will be able to actually be a child.

 

[LHC]

Maybe you should check out some foreign countries were this happens every day. When people don't have money to feed themselves they sometimes do silly things.

What, selling a service in exchange for money?!? Heaven forbid!

You obviously don't agree with these laws, feeling they limit the freedom to do what you want with your own body

Indeed

but you forget when and why these laws have been instated. They are not there to stop children from doing what they want to do, they are there to make sure children can't be forced to do things they don't want to do.

We should stop people being forced to do things they don't want to do. What we shouldn't do is tell then what they want to do, when they want to do it, and at what arbitrary age barrier they are allowed to do it, because person x wanted to do it at age y.

They have been enstated because parents, employers and children can not be trusted to deal with this themselves.

Unfair

It is quite easy to put pressure on children or simply talk them into doing things they normally would not want to do or that they will regret later in life.
There is a limitation: you are forced to be a child untill the age of sixteen to ensure you will be able to actually be a child.

Almost everyone is manipulated every day of their lives; this 'people suddenly become responsible after the age of X' idea seems hideously wrong and contradicts almost the entirity of my personal experiences. How many 16/17/18/40/41 year olds do you know who consistently make educated rational decisions, seriously?

 

[LHC]

If a child molester says "Hay can i fuck your child" and then they reply "yeah sure". Never going to happen, mind you.

Obviously in other cases it would be an initiation of force, which is what the government should be there to stop.

I really do not understand what the point you're trying to make is; if it's the parents agree, their child can be buggered senseless?

If child, parent and offender agree then sure.

 

[mattmagoo]

If a child molester says "Hay can i fuck your child" and then they reply "yeah sure". Never going to happen, mind you.

Obviously in other cases it would be an initiation of force, which is what the government should be there to stop.

I really do not understand what the point you're trying to make is; if it's the parents agree, their child can be buggered senseless?

If child, parent and offender agree then sure.

OK, what if the molester IS the parent, this is completely illegal but falls into the boundaries of your rule

 

[LHC]

Most of what I have suggested it "totally illegal", but I don't care for unfair laws.

In this case, again, if they both consent I don't see a problem. But, as always, if force is used (inc. forced "consent") there is indeed a problem.


The issue isn't really when people think things are appropriate - e.g. over 21 is OK, but 20 isn't, etc.

People can have their quirky rules about this sort of thing. It's when you want to enshrine your bizarre prejudice into law. You can have a "rule" for yourself. That's fine. But are you saying people who break your rule should be put in prison? That seems a completely different matter.

 

[Rico]

"If the child agrees, fine." was LHC's response.

However what happens if the parent does some stuff in the first place with the child while he doesn't know much about life in general, and the child grows up to think it's perfectly normal. I have spoken to people who only found out what their dad did to them was 'wrong' many years later.

You may argue that if the child was brought up not thinking it to be wrong, he was not negatively affected. However, as soon as he enters society he realises it to be 'wrong' and becomes very upset by it. For as long as you want to keep kids isolated in glass jars, you can ignore these 'unfair laws'.

EDIT: Your edit pretty much beat me to the point.

 

[raven]

Maybe you should check out some foreign countries were this happens every day. When people don't have money to feed themselves they sometimes do silly things.

What, selling a service in exchange for money?!? Heaven forbid!

They have been enstated because parents, employers and children can not be trusted to deal with this themselves.

Unfair

It is quite easy to put pressure on children or simply talk them into doing things they normally would not want to do or that they will regret later in life.
There is a limitation: you are forced to be a child untill the age of sixteen to ensure you will be able to actually be a child.

Almost everyone is manipulated every day of their lives; this 'people suddenly become responsible after the age of X' idea seems hideously wrong and contradicts almost the entirity of my personal experiences. How many 16/17/18/40/41 year olds do you know who consistently make educated rational decisions, seriously?

So you have no problems with rich pedophiles going to poor countries and having sex with little boys that agree with this because they need the money to live?

What is unfair about saying parents, employers and children can not be trusted with that? At the time those laws were created children were forced to work under horrible circumstances (often dying while doing this), employers couldn't care less and parents and children were forced because they really needed that money.

Children are being abused by their own parents for child-pornography. Sometimes children agree to do this because their parents blackmail them saying things like "but you want mommy and daddy to love you don't you?". Your suggestion would make this legal.

What you seem to forget is that a child can easily be tricked into making pictures with this friendly gentleman in exchange for a shiny toy. This might be something you regret when later in life all your childhood pictures are you and 'uncle John' in the nude. Are you seriously suggesting that children at any age are as capable to oversee the results of their actions as adults are? To do this you need a level of abstract thinking that is simply not developed in children yet.

 

[mattmagoo]

like Amish people

 

[LHC]

So you have no problems with rich pedophiles going to poor countries and having sex with little boys that agree with this because they need the money to live?

Which is preferable? The sex with the man or the death?

What is unfair about saying parents, employers and children can not be trusted with that? At the time those laws were created children were forced to work under horrible circumstances (often dying while doing this), employers couldn't care less and parents and children were forced because they really needed that money.

I don't see what employers have to do with this, but still. Employers aren't there as a charity case. They are there to achieve profit for themselves, and the workers are there means to that end. If the employees agreed contractually to accept the conditions of working, they take the risk. The alternative is to not work there.

Children are being abused by their own parents for child-pornography. Sometimes children agree to do this because their parents blackmail them saying things like "but you want mommy and daddy to love you don't you?". Your suggestion would make this legal.

Emotional blackmail is an initiation of force, so no it wouldn't.

What you seem to forget is that a child can easily be tricked into making pictures with this friendly gentleman in exchange for a shiny toy. This might be something you regret when later in life all your childhood pictures are you and 'uncle John' in the nude. Are you seriously suggesting that children at any age are as capable to oversee the results of their actions as adults are? To do this you need a level of abstract thinking that is simply not developed in children yet.

Yes I agree. We should outlaw bad decisions. :rolleyes:

 

[raven]

So you have no problems with rich pedophiles going to poor countries and having sex with little boys that agree with this because they need the money to live?

Which is preferable? The sex with the man or the death?

What is unfair about saying parents, employers and children can not be trusted with that? At the time those laws were created children were forced to work under horrible circumstances (often dying while doing this), employers couldn't care less and parents and children were forced because they really needed that money.

I don't see what employers have to do with this, but still. Employers aren't there as a charity case. They are there to achieve profit for themselves, and the workers are there means to that end. If the employees agreed contractually to accept the conditions of working, they take the risk. The alternative is to not work there.

Children are being abused by their own parents for child-pornography. Sometimes children agree to do this because their parents blackmail them saying things like "but you want mommy and daddy to love you don't you?". Your suggestion would make this legal.

Emotional blackmail is an initiation of force, so no it wouldn't.

What you seem to forget is that a child can easily be tricked into making pictures with this friendly gentleman in exchange for a shiny toy. This might be something you regret when later in life all your childhood pictures are you and 'uncle John' in the nude. Are you seriously suggesting that children at any age are as capable to oversee the results of their actions as adults are? To do this you need a level of abstract thinking that is simply not developed in children yet.

Yes I agree. We should outlaw bad decisions. :rolleyes:

It's very easy to say that actually agreeing to do something also means that you want to do it. Children are often not in the position to change their lives: if you refuse where will you live, who will look after you, how will you get food, will you still be loved? Children have very limited power and control over their own circumstances (how many times did you get to stay up as late as you wanted?). You are simply taking this out of the equation and suggest that children have as much negotiation power as anybody else.

The laws you are objecting have taken the power position from parents and employers, they simply were not allowed to do what they did before. Because of this the exploitation of children on a massive scale disappeared from western countries. What was normal before would not be accepted today thanks to these laws, not thanks to employers and caretakers. You might suggest we can now safely abandon these laws becasue the situation has changed but even today we have rules about sexual contact between employers and employees and docters and patients. We have those for the exact same reason: the power postion is not balanced.

It is also very easy to just ignore the comment about abstract thinking and making this into 'bad decisions'. Abstract thinking and overseeing your own actions isn't something you are born with, you have to develop these skills. If you lack abstract thinking you can't oversee the results of your actions and therefore can't make life decisions (it's why we do not allow severely retarded people to make all decisions for themselves). Are you really suggesting we put two year olds in charge of their life?

 

[LHC]

It's very easy to say that actually agreeing to do something also means that you want to do it. Children are often not in the position to change their lives: if you refuse where will you live, who will look after you, how will you get food, will you still be loved?

First person to refer to need, loses? I hope so.

Children have very limited power and control over their own circumstances (how many times did you get to stay up as late as you wanted?). You are simply taking this out of the equation and suggest that children have as much negotiation power as anybody else.

This is meaningless. It's not only children that have less negotiation skills than anybody else. Many adults are better at negotiating than others.

The laws you are objecting have taken the power position from parents and employers, they simply were not allowed to do what they did before. Because of this the exploitation of children on a massive scale disappeared from western countries. What was normal before would not be accepted today thanks to these laws, not thanks to employers and caretakers

I'll repeat that I don't think that employers should have ever had a responsibility to be slaves to their workers, and then point out that this socialisation of the work place has meant profits have been stolen from employers and we now have a welfare state.

You might suggest we can now safely abandon these laws becasue the situation has changed but even today we have rules about sexual contact between employers and employees and docters and patients. We have those for the exact same reason: the power postion is not balanced.

It shouldn't be the jurisdiction of the government to decide which two people can have a relationship. Because private property in healthcare doesn't exist you could probably claim that as the government owns the doctors and therefore it is their choice whom they ban their employees from seeing. It's not just doctors who have power over patients. It happens in other relationships; money earners ofter have the power over the other partner.

It is also very easy to just ignore the comment about abstract thinking and making this into 'bad decisions'. Abstract thinking and overseeing your own actions isn't something you are born with, you have to develop these skills. If you lack abstract thinking you can't oversee the results of your actions and therefore can't make life decisions (it's why we do not allow severely retarded people to make all decisions for themselves).

Do you expect that banning bad decisions will allow people's 'abstract thinking skills' to develop?

Are you really suggesting we put two year olds in charge of their life?

This is different as two year olds can not make bad decisions on such a scale; they can not make decisions at all. This is their parent's job, and if they do something to the child, the child will not be consenting and such would be an initiation of force.

 

[raven]

It's not about being better at negotiating or getting better developing skills:
Children can not negotiate because they don't have power: children go to bed in time because daddy says so, not because they want to. Rights come as you start claiming them, you can only start claiming them when you have at least some power position. Children do not have to be enslaved, they are born as slaves and slowly start claiming rights little by little.

Children really do not have the development in their brains to do abstract thinking, period. It's a real developement (not develop as in 'getting better at it' but as in 'not being there before') like learning to walk. Children can't oversee their actions because their brain is not ready to do that yet. You can't compare poor judgement to not being able to judge.

You seem to understand that two year old children can't take care of themselves. Don't you understand that the age of sixteen is just a line between where people can and can 't take care of themselves according to the government. You do seem to acknowledge the line, so apparently you just don't agree on the age they set.

 

[RoboJoe32]

My GOD at the people sympathizeing for these freaks...

"They can't help it" "Blah blah" Oh bullshit, So I supposed people who get off on necrophilia and killing people can't help it either?

Rapists, child molestors, pedophiles, kidnappers, all of them make me sick to my stomach to even HEAR about...

They are the LOWEST of the low, the most cowardly bastards ever, and the most sick and twisted.

And people are trying to defend them? Wtf IS WRONG WITH YOU?!?!?

Sometimes you guys really disappoint me. :angry:

 

[Rico]

Sometimes your stupidity and narrow-mindedness amazes me.

Just in case that comes across as overly harsh, here's a little reminder.

Your mother should have received a darwin award for bringing such a goddamn fucking prick of a bastard white trash child into this fucking world... Normally i'm a reasonable guy... But you're a fucking asshole. Go do the world a favor and curl up and die in a fucking gutter, FUCKING. DIE.... You prolly will anyways, either from your own sad demise or someone tireing of your fucking mouth. If someone YOU care about dies the next day it'd only be fucking fitting... Wait, you love no one because NO ONE loves you... Did your father beat you or something as a child to fuck you up so badly? Really? What THE FUCK is your problem?

Sound familiar...?

 

[finty]

Your mother should have received a darwin award for bringing such a goddamn fucking prick of a bastard white trash child into this fucking world... Normally i'm a reasonable guy... But you're a fucking asshole. Go do the world a favor and curl up and die in a fucking gutter, FUCKING. DIE.... You prolly will anyways, either from your own sad demise or someone tireing of your fucking mouth. If someone YOU care about dies the next day it'd only be fucking fitting... Wait, you love no one because NO ONE loves you... Did your father beat you or something as a child to fuck you up so badly? Really? What THE FUCK is your problem?

Sound familiar...?

Who did he say that to?

 

[Mark]

My GOD at the people sympathizeing for these freaks...

"They can't help it" "Blah blah" Oh bullshit, So I supposed people who get off on necrophilia and killing people can't help it either?

Rapists, child molestors, pedophiles, kidnappers, all of them make me sick to my stomach to even HEAR about...

They are the LOWEST of the low, the most cowardly bastards ever, and the most sick and twisted.

And people are trying to defend them? Wtf IS WRONG WITH YOU?!?!?

Sometimes you guys really disappoint me. :angry:

It's so easy to think like that. As Rico says, it's completly narrowminded.

But LHC, saying that if everyone involved consents it's okay doesn't really make sense. And when you say starve or have sex to the ppl in other countries; don't u think it's bad enough for them without being used like that.