Pandora''s Type Classification

[urjaman]

I kind of wonder, if it lacked the keyboard and looked more like a traditional gaming handheld if it would be getting a totally different spin than it's getting right now.

One can wonder, but I (propably) wouldn't be gettting one if it didn't have the keyboard...

 

[lulzfish]

Thanks to the huge advent of netbooks on the market a lot of people are seeing Pandora as one and an inferior one at that (smaller, not x86..). It's not a netbook, but unfortunately since a netbook is all a lot of people want that's all they're going to see it as. It's a gaming device. Netbooks are not gaming devices.

I kind of wonder, if it lacked the keyboard and looked more like a traditional gaming handheld if it would be getting a totally different spin than it's getting right now.

These people are stupid. The point of netbooks is to sacrifice higher-end gaming and graphics for portability and battery life.
But all netbooks are too large for pockets and still only have a few hours of battery.

If anything, the Pandora is a superior version of the netbook, with a Playstation built in.
But it definitely needs the keyboard for general computing stuff. I certainly would not buy a Pandora that lacked a keyboard. Touch screen, maybe. Gaming controls, probably. But not without the keyboard.

 

[DavidBowman]

It's WITCHCRAFT!!!

 

[zaoin]

PSP+DS+KEYBOARD

 

[WizardStan]

PSP+DS+KEYBOARD

The only thing that people care about in comparison to the DS is the touch screen. If you mention it's like a DS, however, they're likely to think it has two screens. Probably better to say PSP+Touchscreen+Keyboard(+400 mhz+SD cards+proper video out+...).

 

[gp2.eXe]

Another:

PLUG!

Pocket
Linux
Ultra
Gadget

 

[Exophase]

These people are stupid. The point of netbooks is to sacrifice higher-end gaming and graphics for portability and battery life.

But all netbooks are too large for pockets and still only have a few hours of battery.

There are netbook like devices that are around the same size as Pandora. Expensive though. I saw one with a 1280x800 or so screen, which felt like overkill.

Battery life is encroaching on Pandora as well. Eee 1000HA can last 7 hours.

If anything, the Pandora is a superior version of the netbook, with a Playstation built in.

Now that's just silly, since it's just as easy to get a PS1 emulator running on a typical netbook (and it'll probably work fine, save for the lack of gaming controls that you seem to not care that much...)

But it definitely needs the keyboard for general computing stuff. I certainly would not buy a Pandora that lacked a keyboard. Touch screen, maybe. Gaming controls, probably. But not without the keyboard.

Personally I see gaming controls as being the biggest thing Pandora does have to offer over competitors which are going to catch up more in battery life, especially with OMAP3530 devices just around the corner. A lot of people might be buying it for the keyboard, but those who don't care about the gaming controls much or at all are going to be much easier to sway over to other devices. In the mean time, a lot of people in the handheld gaming device crowds are saying bad things about it because of the cluttered and unergonomic appearance they perceive the Pandora as having.

 

[kin]

SSM

Spicy Sandwich Maker

 

[cobaltage]

Personally I see gaming controls as being the biggest thing Pandora does have to offer over competitors which are going to catch up more in battery life, especially with OMAP3530 devices just around the corner. A lot of people might be buying it for the keyboard, but those who don't care about the gaming controls much or at all are going to be much easier to sway over to other devices. In the mean time, a lot of people in the handheld gaming device crowds are saying bad things about it because of the cluttered and unergonomic appearance they perceive the Pandora as having.

I agree. I also think the gaming controls could be really useful for controlling applications when using the Pandora for non-gaming tasks. It would be great to be able to map hardware buttons to stuff like opening and closing tabs in Firefox, or selecting tracks in the media player.

As for netbooks, the increasing battery life results from the fact that they are growing from 7" to 10"+ screen sizes, which leaves much more room for a battery.

For devices the size of the Pandora, the power consumption of the Atom CPU means that to get reasonable battery life, you make more compromises. E.g. the Viliv S5 is an Atom based MID running Windows XP with a 4.8" 1024x600 screen, the Poulsbo graphics chipset, and a 6,200 mAh battery with internal GPS and a battery life of about 5 to 6 hours -- but it has no hardware keyboard and no mouse. The Pandora has the 4,200 mAh battery and battery life of about 8 hours. The S5 comes in at 395g, the Pandora at about 300g. Of course, the S5 also has a 30GB harddrive and that internal GPS, so the cost of the internal components is not directly comparable. Nevertheless, if you assume that people are buying netbooks for battery life at the expense of whatever other features, the S5 goes for about $700, twice as much as the Pandora, for a 50% increase in battery size but providing about 70% of the battery life as the Pandora.

The point is that the Atom CPU is not going to be able to give you the combination of a handheld or pocketable computer with good battery life and hardware thumb-keyboard. It is just not efficient enough.

I think netbooks make the Pandora look better and not worse overall, primarily because netbooks have pushed Linux OS towards the mainstream. Even if MS gets Windows 7 to run okay on the Atom CPU, the power consumption benefits of the ARM class CPU will keep Linux competitive in the netbook market for a while. I just hope Linux/ARM keeps up with things like Flash, useful PIM apps, and UI optimizations.

 

[renegadechic]

i'm a bit indecisive about this, but:

F - Functionally/Fully
U - Unrestricted
N - Net/Nano

Book

FUN Book. does what is says on the tin.

 

[Exophase]

The point is that the Atom CPU is not going to be able to give you the combination of a handheld or pocketable computer with good battery life and hardware thumb-keyboard. It is just not efficient enough.

I don't see why the thumb keyboard would be a limiting factor, unless you mean that there's not enough room for a battery afterwards. The battery life comparisons you gave seem a little flawed, assuming that the S5 was benched at full CPU load - I'm figuring a 1.6GHz Atom (since that's what everything seems to be using), and there's no way that a 500MHz Cortex-A8 is in the same league as that. Maybe it should be done with the Atom at 500MHz instead, or whatever is necessary to reach benchmark parity. Just the same, Atom battery consumption is going to be improving faster than ARMs will be because there's simply more room for improvement, and as much as I prefer ARM CPUs the difference is going to become less and less relevant.

I think netbooks make the Pandora look better and not worse overall, primarily because netbooks have pushed Linux OS towards the mainstream. Even if MS gets Windows 7 to run okay on the Atom CPU, the power consumption benefits of the ARM class CPU will keep Linux competitive in the netbook market for a while. I just hope Linux/ARM keeps up with things like Flash, useful PIM apps, and UI optimizations.

I don't think that netbooks have made Linux more mainstream at all - for one thing, most of them are shipping with Windows XP or Vista. This might change in the future, but right now the situation with Linux on netbooks isn't really any better than it has been for laptops for years, and the support has been spotty (I have been using Easy Peasy and have run into all kinds of problems so far). Wifi bugs persist across the board, with some outright not working at all. I'm sure it'll get better, but it's still a problem.

I'm not trying to say that Pandora w/o gaming controls offers nothing over similar devices, but what I am saying is that in the eyes of the average consumer, whatever gap there actually is is only going to become smaller and smaller because this is a really hot market that's completely exploded recently. The market for this kind of gaming device, on the other hand, is virtually nil, and I think that this will be the stronger selling point of Pandora in the end. Which is why it's bad that people see it as being marginalized to instead focus on the netbook like qualities, whether or not this was craigix's intention.

 

[Happy]

Before this thread gets killed for ambling off into rambling (only an observation that there isn't a certain cohesiveness to the discussion, not anybody's fault), I want to point out that this thread has only reaffirmed the difficulty in categorizing the Pandora. It would be really nice to stop focusing on comparison to other devices as the Pandora does not really seem to be aiming at becoming the next (insert whatever name in here). Rather the Pandora is a good opportunity to have a device which fits in your pocket with the potential to allow you to use it for whatever purpose you see fit. It should not have limitations of only running approved (i.e. proprietary/licensed) applications, you hopefully have the options you want. I realize the design really is aimed for supporting entertainment/gaming, which is great. Just market it as a pocket gaming device that is friendly for development. Attract the developers. Make it easy for them, whether they are professional developers or homebrew developers. Eliminate the distinction between the two. Ultimately, Pandora's range and usefulness will come down to what is developed for it.

I apologize for somewhat ranting, but if someone can point out an advantage the Pandora has that eclipses the accessiblity to development, I would be willing to listen and change my views.

 

[lulzfish]

I apologize for somewhat ranting, but if someone can point out an advantage the Pandora has that eclipses the accessiblity to development, I would be willing to listen and change my views.

I would say the accessibility to development is just a subset of the Pandora's general accessibility.
There's no similar portable device that gives the user full filesystem access in such a way. Not legally, at least.
I can easily think of 6 ways to get files on the Pandora [7 if the Pandora is simply plugged into a USB port] without any special connection software, and you control exactly where the files go.
Open development is certainly one of the most valuable aspect of the Pandora, but it's basically just a special case of having full access to its file system.

 

[(naw)mcx]

TKS?

The Kitchen Sink, of course.

 

[lulzfish]

"Nobody can be told what the Pandora is. You have to see it for yourself."

 

[latiosu]

I think the classification would be something like this:

Unbrickable Linux Open Source Handheld PC Online Emulator Gamer Multimedia and Office Oriented, Community Supported, Noob & Hardcore Friendly which can do a lot of Stuff.

 

[gp2.eXe]

You forgot about pocket?

Sounds nice however. *Starts learning it to tell friends*

 

[calc84maniac]

I think the classification would be something like this:

Unbrickable Linux Open Source Handheld PC Online Emulator Gamer Multimedia and Office Oriented, Community Supported, Noob & Hardcore Friendly which can do a lot of Stuff.

That sounds oddly like tags on a Youtube video.

 

[latiosu]

You forgot about pocket?

Sounds nice however. *Starts learning it to tell friends*

Also forgot the USB, Bluetooth, etc. That's why I put "which can do a lot of Stuff" at the end. I got tired of enumerating things.

 

[cobaltage]

I don't see why the thumb keyboard would be a limiting factor, unless you mean that there's not enough room for a battery afterwards. The battery life comparisons you gave seem a little flawed, assuming that the S5 was benched at full CPU load - I'm figuring a 1.6GHz Atom (since that's what everything seems to be using), and there's no way that a 500MHz Cortex-A8 is in the same league as that. Maybe it should be done with the Atom at 500MHz instead, or whatever is necessary to reach benchmark parity. Just the same, Atom battery consumption is going to be improving faster than ARMs will be because there's simply more room for improvement, and as much as I prefer ARM CPUs the difference is going to become less and less relevant.

Yes, I was just referring to size and space limitations on the hardware keyboard. That Viliv S5 is one of the few Atom-based pocket sized computers that has a decent battery life, and the battery is enormous.

I agree that the Atom and Cortex A8 are not capable of being directly compared. It is just a question of what is out there on the market these days. If those tiny computers that run Windows had the form factor and basic design of the Pandora minus the slick analog gaming controls, for $330 and with 8 hours of battery life, people would be very prone to getting one, I would think. But for $1000+ and a 2 hour battery life, they are a luxury class device (like the OQO 2+).


Anyway, getting back to classification...

If Nokia made a version of their Internet Tablet series that were designed specifically to play N-Gage games as well as do what it already does, that would be about as close to the Pandora as anything could be that one could even think a major company might produce, IMO. Except that their game catalog is kind of in left field, meaning that Nokia would have to attract developers to their platform. I guess it is theoretically not out of the question that Nokia would do something like that, although they seem to be doing that to a small extent now with Symbian OS instead of with Maemo.

I think Nokia will be the one to watch when it comes to a competing similar device to the Pandora. They are the only major company to have invested in any significant way in the ARM-based CPU in a pocketable device running a mostly open-source OS, supported by an open-source development community. What is interesting about the Internet Tablet series also is that Nokia has kept it a multi-function device -- it has always had an RSS feed aggregator, a browser, multi-media playback, Flash support, a PDF reader, in some cases a GPS application... And of course the internals are practically dead-on identical for the upcoming model. However, Nokia has never stressed battery life with the N8x0 or N770 -- the battery life is okay but not superb.