Pandora should leave Angstrom

[ibisum]

pmprog: sebts got a VM out there somewhere, pre-configured and ready to go? This sounds like a great plan .. anyone got more details?

 

[pmprog]

pmprog: sebts got a VM out there somewhere, pre-configured and ready to go? This sounds like a great plan .. anyone got more details?

It's not specific for firmware - that's what I was saying, if one was made similar to his, but primarily designed around building the firmware, that would be ace


It compiles the MiniMenu okay though

 

[ShleeDragon]

It is about size restriction. Please read the rest of the topic.

The device has 512MB of NAND, It's not size restrictive - Quit saying that... The NDS Dslinux runs on has 8mb of ram and 51mb of storage.. I doubt it will be hard for "us" to work around the size. the smaller the better if we want to use it for storing both OS+binaries & PNDs as usual.


The real issue is maintainability and manpower. If be interested to hear from the actual real dev team on their internal roadmap... and if *insert arm distro of choice here* is consider a valid option.

 

[Grench]

OK, as hard for some to take as it is...


The internal NAND is too small to be used ongoing as a primary drive.


We're only able to use it as such to date by using outdated OS images that, through labors of love, have been shrunk down and trimmed to fit.

Um... no?


First, neither real labour nor love required*. It hasn't been shrunk down, it just isn't bloated. You choose NOT to install certain things, that means less work, not more.


Second, it isn't outdated so much as not as up to date, something which Notaz, being super awesome beyond all conceivable reason, has steadily worked to correct. This "outdated" wasn't a problem with the size of the NAND, even if you'd installed some different distro on an SD card, you'd still have the same kernel problems. Saying that the ONLY reason to use such an outdated distro is because of size restrictions is incredibly insulting to all the work everyone has put into making it work for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with size. Both of your arguments are without merit.


Finally, what you are proposing is absolutely not noob friendly. The SD card would necessarily have to be inserted, and formatted to some linux format like ext2. The first time someone accidentally ejects it, or even shuts down properly and tries to use it in their Windows computer, they'll complain. We should be working to make things easier, not harder. OS on the NAND, you don't have to think about it.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you want to install to an SD card you can do so very easily, and then you can install everything you could possibly want from the repo. That's two options, and a plethora of choices on how someone can use their SD cards. By making an SD install mandatory, you are necessarily removing options and choices. I am very much against removing choices for no gain. I can think of no benefit to the community by forcing everyone to using a larger OS than they need. I can think of many benefits to the individual, but the individuals that would benefit from that should be knowledgeable enough to follow the steps to install the OS to an SD card themselves and then activate the Angstrom repo to install anything they want.


*a lot of labour and love required, just not in the way you're thinking it.

It was announced in another thread that we're done updating Angstrom at HF6. I take that to mean that our OS is dead ended. Is this incorrect?


NONE of the repositories work correctly with our Angstrom install - we're so far behind that any use of opkg BREAKS the OS.


Unwillingness to have a single card formatted for Linux - for someone using a Linux handheld seems asinine.


"We should be working to make things easier, not harder. OS on the NAND, you don't have to think about it."


is incompatible with:


"I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you want to install to an SD card you can do so very easily, and then you can install everything you could possibly want from the repo."


Easy availability of the distribution's repository should be ASSUMED AS REQUIRED for any OS. Currently, even if you copy the OS to an SD card and boot from it - any attempt to use the repository has as good of a chance of bricking the OS as it does getting a desired program to install.


We're trying to use an embeded OS footprint for a desktop OS application.


Programs such as FireFox and LibreOffice don't work properly - they need a /swap partition to work at all.


Claiming that the expense of a $20 SD card is too onerous for someone purchasing a $500 linux handheld with two SD slots is hillarious.


Requiring an SD install should OPEN the options for people using this device - by allowing normal users simple access to updates and repository based software without having to beg a developer to put re-compile it and package it into the PND format.


The Angstrom OS support - being mostly in German - is inaccessible to many of the Pandora's users.


Anstrom is a lame duck OS - it isn't being actively developed by enough people to be an ongoing concern.


Notaz did a great job of getting an OS to work on the OpenPandora. Kudos to him - and thank you. At some point though, we're going to need to give some serious consideration to 'what's next'? I don't think that is Angstrom in NAND. It's too obscure, it's package management is broken, it has a name that can not be typed on my keyboard, English support for the OS is very limited, etc... If going away from Angstrom to an SD install of another OS would enable us to get better package management, updates, real access to a repository - I'm all for it.


Remember, the Pandora is a general use Linux based handheld computer with gaming controls built in. It is NOT a Nintsony game console.


Grench

 

[mcobit]

It is about size restriction. Please read the rest of the topic.

The device has 512MB of NAND, It's not size restrictive - Quit saying that... The NDS Dslinux runs on has 8mb of ram and 51mb of storage.. I doubt it will be hard for "us" to work around the size. the smaller the better if we want to use it for storing both OS+binaries & PNDs as usual.


The real issue is maintainability and manpower. If be interested to hear from the actual real dev team on their internal roadmap... and if *insert arm distro of choice here* is consider a valid option.

Look at your libfolder. If you want to carry everything there is with you to a new system and have updated libs it is unlikely, that 512mb will be enough.


Angstrom is an embedded linux distro, that is trimmed down to run on smaller systems. Try to install everything, that is on Pandora in ubuntu and see how big your image gets.


DS linux might be small, but it has a lot less features out of the box.


I think YOU don't really know what you're talking about...


Edit: When I think about it, I don't want to argue with you. So you are right. What do I know...

 

[Linux-SWAT]

About the .pnd compatibility between OS updates, i would like to say Notaz .pnd are working pretty well on Slackware.


I suppose he made them all static, and it's the way a .pnd should be.


About the Slackware package management, the fact he has no dependency check is not "a bad thing". It's up to the exo-maintainer to do a good job.


And it suppress the hotfix system, avoiding wiping all SD each month ^^ (note that i don't care, because of the appdata trick).


And finally, you don't bloat your system installing a tiny app.


Oh, and DSLinux, well... you jus't can't compare.

 

[Prometheus]

It was announced in another thread that we're done updating Angstrom at HF6. I take that to mean that our OS is dead ended. Is this incorrect?

Are you sure that this isn't about the now-disproven notion that Zaxxon, the current Pandora OS release - not Ångström - was meant to be done with by Hotfix 6, to be replaced by the next release, Yar's Revenge, and updated via a repo of some sort?


There's been no talk of Ångström being dead-ended at all, to the best of my knowledge. Quite the opposite - I gather that Yar's is meant to be more in-line with current Ångström releases, thus negating the current issue where installing from the Ångström repo can break things.

 

[WizardStan]

It was announced in another thread that we're done updating Angstrom at HF6. I take that to mean that our OS is dead ended. Is this incorrect?

Not as far as I know. Can you link to the exact announcement, because from what I can tell the only reason not to do any more work is because everything that has been done has been migrated into mainline.

NONE of the repositories work correctly with our Angstrom install - we're so far behind that any use of opkg BREAKS the OS.

That's weird. I install stuff off the Angstrom repo all the time.

Unwillingness to have a single card formatted for Linux - for someone using a Linux handheld seems asinine.


"We should be working to make things easier, not harder. OS on the NAND, you don't have to think about it."


is incompatible with:


"I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you want to install to an SD card you can do so very easily, and then you can install everything you could possibly want from the repo."


Easy availability of the distribution's repository should be ASSUMED AS REQUIRED for any OS. Currently, even if you copy the OS to an SD card and boot from it - any attempt to use the repository has as good of a chance of bricking the OS as it does getting a desired program to install.

It's not assumed that you need to be able to install your OS on a memory card for the 3DS or the Vita, the OS is in the firmware. If you mandate an SD card install, it necessarily becomes more complicated than if it is installed on NAND as it is.

Programs such as FireFox and LibreOffice don't work properly - they need a /swap partition to work at all.

No they don't, I've never had a problem without swap. I'm limited to two or three tabs in Firefox, but it still works just fine.

Remember, the Pandora is a general use Linux based handheld computer with gaming controls built in. It is NOT a Nintsony game console.

Ahah! Then we get to the root of your error. You assume it is a handheld computer, and that everyone who wants one is using it as such. For every person that thinks of it as a handheld computer with game controls there's someone else that considers it a game system with keyboard. There's at least 3 discussions about this over the years that I can recall where absolutely no conclusion was drawn except that everyone sees it differently. You see it as a pocket PC, I see it as a pocket PC, but the key difference between us is that I don't assume that my way is necessarily suitable for everyone and realize that what I gain from an SD card install is not something that would benefit everyone, and would absolutely be detrimental to some.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Ahah! Then we get to the root of your error. You assume it is a handheld computer, and that everyone who wants one is using it as such. For every person that thinks of it as a handheld computer with game controls there's someone else that considers it a game system with keyboard. There's at least 3 discussions about this over the years that I can recall where absolutely no conclusion was drawn except that everyone sees it differently. You see it as a pocket PC, I see it as a pocket PC, but the key difference between us is that I don't assume that my way is necessarily suitable for everyone and realize that what I gain from an SD card install is not something that would benefit everyone, and would absolutely be detrimental to some.

True.

 

[F_Slim]

You see it as a pocket PC, I see it as a pocket PC, but the key difference between us is that I don't assume that my way is necessarily suitable for everyone and realize that what I gain from an SD card install is not something that would benefit everyone, and would absolutely be detrimental to some.

Besides: having an OS for people who just want something that runs the .PNDs you can get eg. from the repo does not keep you from just running whatever OS you want (and that is able to run on the given hardware) from an SD-card

 

[Prometheus]

I don't assume that my way is necessarily suitable for everyone and realize that what I gain from an SD card install is not something that would benefit everyone, and would absolutely be detrimental to some.

If I may...


The way I see it, is that those running from SD already could treat the on-NAND OS as a "recovery" thing - just carry a spare SD Card for reimaging if you need it, and use the on-NAND OS to flash it to the other slot if it's ever necessary. It's already there and doable, as far as I can see.


I would imagine, though, that the vast majority of users not only run from NAND, but also make use of both card slots in doing so... There's no benefit to losing a slot for those in this boat, whilst those who want to treat the NAND differently can already do so.


In short, the current situation benefits everyone through its flexibility, whilst forcing absolutely everyone to waste an SD slot when currently they don't need to, doesn't even benefit those few who want that option since it likely could already be done if needed - it only disadvantages everyone who doesn't need it.

 

[diligentcircle]

Maybe requiring use of an SD card for the OS would be a good idea... for the Pandora 2, if it has an SD slot under the battery and includes an SD card with it. Not for the Pandora, though.

 

[Binky]

Maybe requiring use of an SD card for the OS would be a good idea... for the Pandora 2, if it has an SD slot under the battery and includes an SD card with it. Not for the Pandora, though.

Only if there are 2 full size ones as well

 

[diligentcircle]

Maybe requiring use of an SD card for the OS would be a good idea... for the Pandora 2, if it has an SD slot under the battery and includes an SD card with it. Not for the Pandora, though.

Only if there are 2 full size ones as well

That's what I meant.

 

[Binky]

Running off on a tangent, as everybody wants more/more complex hardware in a P2, is it likely to be possible to include this kind of stuff without massively increasing the cost?


i.e. will the cost of what is already in a P1 have reduced sufficiently to add new stuff?


---


What about installing the OS on a tiny USB drive?

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Just made a poll :

 

[kaprikawn]

Wow, way to go derailing the thread. Whether to mandate the use of the SD card is utterly irrelevant. All you need is an OS that fits in 512meg, and where you can use the repos should you want to run the OS from the SD card. Then you'd have the best of both worlds, letting people choose. The Pandora wouldn't be very OPEN if you force people to use it in a certain way.


To my mind we should be focussing on Torpor's issue of not being able to easily contribute to the OS. What (or who) would it take to get this sorted?


Could it not be done in the 'Open Pandora appstore/repo' method - community sets up their own thing, turns out to be better than the previous official offering, community solution becomes the new official way?

 

[Binky]

Of course the main question relating to changing distro is does anybody have the time, knowledge and enthusiasm to do it?

 

[ZXDunny]

Can I just interject here that my Pandora is a games console, and that when a new firmware update requires that I boot from an SD card is the day that I stop updating the firmware. My SD cards are for games and ROMs/ISOs, and nothing else. Of course, if that means that my .pnd files don't work or run sub-optimally on newer firmwares, then that's just too bad.


D.

 

[Binky]

Your Pandora is a games console


My Pandora is a subnetbook


I think a full OS for SD cards is worth having, but only if there is also one that fits on the NAND