Pandora should leave Angstrom

[Prometheus]

first sd-card for os and all apps and data you need regularly, second sd-card for current use, like romsets, music and additional pnds. That's a well sorted system and frees us from restrictions of nand.

I know you said you've given up and all, but I'm genuinely curious, here: What do you propose if you're a person who uses both SD Card slots for cards full of regularly-used data? The OS needs to be on the NAND in such use-cases, in addition to the other things that have been mentioned, as far as I know.

 

[McLovin]

Well, if both cards are filled with apps and data you use all the time, how can you exchange one anyway? The left sd would be locked indeed, but the right one can be switched anytime and we also have the usb-port for additional capacity. not at all bad if you compare it to most other mobile computer systems.

 

[Tempel]

We have 2 sd-slots, the nand is small and therefor restricting. Having the OS on SD by default is an option, a good one if you ask me.

That's simply not feasible because Pandoras don't ship with an included SD card. It's impossible to have OS on SD as the "default" if Pandora's aren't delivered that way. So if Arch can't be fit on the NAND (and it's certainly not designed for that), then we can't expect it to be usable as the default.


Having said that, I intend to run Arch from SD whenever my Pandora arrives, and would happily contribute to giving it official support as an alternative.


valhalla: Arch has ARM support through Arch Linux ARM (formerly PlugApps), which is how wejp made his image. And many PKGBUILDs in the AUR only list i686 and x86_64, but can be built on ARM without modification.

 

[WizardStan]

first sd-card for os and all apps and data you need regularly, second sd-card for current use, like romsets, music and additional pnds. That's a well sorted system and frees us from restrictions of nand.

That's a good suggestion for you and is something that you can absolutely do right now as an option. You can install the OS, Pandora or other, onto an SD card and keep that in, installing a number of other packages that otherwise couldn't be installed to the NAND. You are then free to use the NAND for whatever else you might want.


By making that the default, however, you are removing options, making it more restrictive. Make the default OS big enough that it needs to be installed to an SD card and you no longer have the option of not using an SD card.


There are other downsides to an SD installed OS. What filesystem should it be? EXT is the obvious choice to continue using Linux, but then how does a user reflash the OS to their SD card? In Linux or MacOS there'd probably be little difficulty getting a script setup that'll handle it, but in Windows there's no simple way to write to an EXT formatted card. With the current setup, reflashing the OS is as simple as putting a file on an SD card formatted in one of a few different file systems (including FAT32) and rebooting your Pandora with the button held down; can't really do that if your OS is supposed to be on the SD card.


So in short, for every benefit you can imagine for making an SD card install the default, there is at least one drawback, often several. There is no drawback to having NAND as the default for the OS while keeping SD card installation an option.

 

[ShleeDragon]

I'm just a single chump.. but from a technical/non technical opinion. Id love to see archarm being used as the base.


Firstly, it's slim, manageable and generally based entirely on more upstream sources.


The pacman rolling release repo + the AUR source repo environment is damn awesome for maintaining packages and keep everyone inline.


It would obviously require some assistance from the archarm community to move completely over to the archway but id like to see it debated.


bonus: The default packages are like 12 of them? The kernel/modules/daemons can be limited/compiled for the pandora and can run with the least possible bloat... Leaving more resources for the games/apps than in a full distro.


Software/Drivers/modules/tweaks can be made and updated whenever required and with a single push/pull every single Pandora would be on the most recent version. - If somebody kinds a tweak to improve performance, it can be tested by a core group and pushed to everybody a few days later - The joy of the rolling release.

 

[quartercast]

Mmmmm, I spy human bones.

 

[laurencevde]

Well, the biggest issue is simply manpower, so if you want the Pandora to switch away from ängstrom, you'll have to DIY. Until someone builds a maintainable image that runs from the NAND this discussion is basically moot.


Personally, I think Gentoo would be a better choice though. Leaving out the build-chain(gentoo has support for building on a separate host), it can be stripped down to practically nothing, and there are already packages for Pandora-stuff (in the neuvoo-overlay). In fact, the neuvoo-guys have already done a lot of work for getting it all to work.

 

[ShleeDragon]

I'll work towards a archlinux distro once I get my unit. I doubt it will take long to get the kernel/modules compiled... just setting up the pacman distro and the default scripts will be the main problem.


Obviously this is just WORDS, until I get help.. but hopefully we could get a group together for a proof of concept

 

[EvilDragon]

We already have an ArchArm distro, running from SD Card.


It uses the experimental kernel, but it supports WiFi, Touchscreen, etc. and runs flawlessly.


It's my favourite SD-Distribution for the Pandora right now


However, for internal NAND we'd have the same issue we have with any other OS:


The package manager would want to install everything in the internal 512MB NAND... therefore, you can barely use pacman to install new apps, you'd run out of the NAND very fast.

 

[DaMummy]

http://atc.k-n-p.org/w/pnd-arch1.jpeg

 

[Night]

What about the .pnd system? does it work with the Pandora Arch?

 

[Cloudef]

What about the .pnd system? does it work with the Pandora Arch?

It's just software, depending how sucky the software is (and amount of documentation) determites how long it does take to set it up.


IMO I'm not much of fan angstrom either, but I don't really care either.


Like many have pointed out, you can just boot OS from SD which I will be doing anyways, since linux without package managment (and few other things nand/nand wear/outdateness restricts) is like fish without sea.


The default OS aim is to provide some sort of "windows like" interface with PND system which doesn't write much to nand and allows to launch some PND applications, that's pretty much it.


Take my words as a grain of salt, I haven't yet touched a physical pandora yet

 

[ibisum]

I don't like the idea of switching OS's. What are we developers to target?


Angstrom linux is perfectly fine for the job. It'd be nice if we could use Angstrom package management in a sane fashion, but okay ..

 

[Grench]

We already have an ArchArm distro, running from SD Card.


It uses the experimental kernel, but it supports WiFi, Touchscreen, etc. and runs flawlessly.


It's my favourite SD-Distribution for the Pandora right now


However, for internal NAND we'd have the same issue we have with any other OS:


The package manager would want to install everything in the internal 512MB NAND... therefore, you can barely use pacman to install new apps, you'd run out of the NAND very fast.

OK, as hard for some to take as it is...


The internal NAND is too small to be used ongoing as a primary drive.


We're only able to use it as such to date by using outdated OS images that, through labors of love, have been shrunk down and trimmed to fit. I'm sure there are many who would like to fight against that statement - it doesn't make it less true.


Moving on...


1. Require use of an SD card for the OS to live on in slot 1. This is an end-user required purchase - minimum 4GB. See cheap.


2. Relegate the NAND to being a device install & 'factory specs' recovery partition. It should be able to partition, format and install a wire-frame OS onto the SD card in slot 1 with enough to allow packages to be downloaded and installed over wireless/wired internet connections. I.e. if the primary OS on SD1 fails, the NAND could allow the user to put in a new SD card and rebuild the system from a cold boot.


3. We need to use a reliable, updated and popular distribution. Yes, popular matters too.


a. reliable - changes and fixes get tested before distribution.


b. updated - security updates and software updates and dependencies should be automated (yum, apt, etc...).


c. popular - the distro should be recognizable by anyone who has ever used a Linux machine - and must be able to be spelled correctly on standard US and European keyboards. It should have popular support - yielding OS specific support forums in multiple languages. There should be broad software support and features.


I have recently gotten so fed up with Ubuntu's suicidal pursuit of the Unity interface that I have been systematically re-loading my home workstation with distro after distro.


My opinions:


At the end of the day, the UI front end is the #1 most important differential factor in which distribution to use.


Why? Because functionality must be assumed - or it wouldn't pass to even seriously be a contender.


-Angstrom is about as obscure as an OS distribution as could possibly have been found to use. The fact that it is the only one that can be wedged into NAND does NOT mean that it is the appropriate one to use on the device. However - it DOES have a functional and understandable interface in the form of xfce. XFCE is VERY good.


-Ubuntu WAS good until version 11.04 onward. The current "Unity" interface is the most dysfunctional UI ever.


-Debian is hung up on Gnome 3 - which is less annoying than Unity - which is it's only saving grace. Without Unity to be compared to, Gnome 3 would be a disgrace.


-Fedora's shoes are so tied up that it can't figure out which way to hop.


-Linux Mint tries hard to hide the Gnome 3 shortcomings - but there is only so much that can be done.


I have run all of these on my desktop some, and so far I'm fairly impressed with one oddity.


Linux Mint Debian xfce.


I have no idea if or how to get this onto the Pandora, but so far it has proven to be a very interesting alternative in my desktop Linux alternatives search.


A few of you may be curious - the system that I'm using to evaluate desktop Linux distributions:


HP XW8600 workstation with dual quad core Xeon 2.33Ghz CPUs, 16GB RAM, four 2TB drives on a 3ware hardware RAID controller running RAID 10 - showing as a 4TB drive, two Nvidia 9800GT cards in SLI with 3 monitors in portrait mode as one 2700x1600 combined screen. If i can't get the system working right - using all of the hardware - then I don't bother to evaluate the rest of an OS.


My requirements from a distribution:


1. Understandable package manager.


2. The OS must NOT get in the way of any application running in windowed or full screen mode. I.e. it must NOT take over shift-alt-ctrl-function key combinations and things like that. Somewhere someone decided that new Linux OS's have the right to step between the foreground application and the keyboard. Shame - it RUINS them.


3. List it's installed applications in a hierarchical menu system (tree based) in an orderly and quickly-accessible fashion. Having to type in, from memory, application names into a search box in order to find them is a direct failure of any OS.


4. The OS must stay 'out of the way' or be able to be 'backgrounded'. It must have a mode where it's menu bars and control systems can 'hide' and allow the applications to have the screen real estate.


Sounds pretty simple - right?


Ubuntu 10.04 passes - but is now out of date.


Ubuntu 11.10 fails on 2, 3 AND 4.


Debian (current gnome release) fails on 2 and 4.


Fedora fails on 1, 2 and 4.


Linux Mint Gnome fails on 2 and 4.


Linux Mint Debian xfce fails -partially- on 2.


I'm considering giving Mint Deb xfce another shot to see if I can get it to stop getting in the way of function keys on windowed applications.


If someone has a suggested alternative I should try - let me know.

 

[Prometheus]

1. Require use of an SD card for the OS to live on in slot 1. This is an end-user required purchase - minimum 4GB. See cheap.

I can see a massive flaw with this idea: People won't be happy, having paid $500, that they have to pay extra money (it doesn't matter how much) in order to be required by one user to lose one of the device's features.


EDIT: Haha, I just realised that this was discussed on the previous page of this very gravedug thread. Pickle nailed it in post 16. :lol:

 

[WizardStan]

OK, as hard for some to take as it is...


The internal NAND is too small to be used ongoing as a primary drive.


We're only able to use it as such to date by using outdated OS images that, through labors of love, have been shrunk down and trimmed to fit.

Um... no?


First, neither real labour nor love required*. It hasn't been shrunk down, it just isn't bloated. You choose NOT to install certain things, that means less work, not more.


Second, it isn't outdated so much as not as up to date, something which Notaz, being super awesome beyond all conceivable reason, has steadily worked to correct. This "outdated" wasn't a problem with the size of the NAND, even if you'd installed some different distro on an SD card, you'd still have the same kernel problems. Saying that the ONLY reason to use such an outdated distro is because of size restrictions is incredibly insulting to all the work everyone has put into making it work for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with size. Both of your arguments are without merit.


Finally, what you are proposing is absolutely not noob friendly. The SD card would necessarily have to be inserted, and formatted to some linux format like ext2. The first time someone accidentally ejects it, or even shuts down properly and tries to use it in their Windows computer, they'll complain. We should be working to make things easier, not harder. OS on the NAND, you don't have to think about it.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you want to install to an SD card you can do so very easily, and then you can install everything you could possibly want from the repo. That's two options, and a plethora of choices on how someone can use their SD cards. By making an SD install mandatory, you are necessarily removing options and choices. I am very much against removing choices for no gain. I can think of no benefit to the community by forcing everyone to using a larger OS than they need. I can think of many benefits to the individual, but the individuals that would benefit from that should be knowledgeable enough to follow the steps to install the OS to an SD card themselves and then activate the Angstrom repo to install anything they want.


*a lot of labour and love required, just not in the way you're thinking it.

 

[Stephane Hockenhull]

1. Require use of an SD card for the OS to live on in slot 1. This is an end-user required purchase - minimum 4GB. See cheap.

I can see a massive flaw with this idea: People won't be happy, having paid $500, that they have to pay extra money (it doesn't matter how much) in order to be required by one user to lose one of the device's features.


EDIT: Haha, I just realised that this was discussed on the previous page of this very gravedug thread. Pickle nailed it in post 16. :lol:

you buy a video or photo camera, you need an SD card (unless its the expensive SDD version)


you buy a PlayStation VITA, you need to buy a very expensive proprietary memory card


you're telling me you can't afford to buy a 5$ 4GB SD card ?


http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4329067&CatId=7068


I think using the NAND as a restore/install-to-SD tool, running the OS off the SD card is a good idea.


extra point for keeping user settings on the NAND as well so re-installing on a new SD card will keep the user settings.


super mega bonus points for keeping sets of app packages to reinstall as well.


even better if you can alternatively install the OS on an USB drive, the NAND could trampoline-boot to USB.


you could stick a fast USB HDD or SDD to the cover or bottom with a short USB cable.


maybe even hack-in a tiny USB hub.


doesn't need to be the out-of-factory option for the NAND, but I'd switch mine (once I get it) to that setup if it was available.

 

[Stephane Hockenhull]

to clarify, I'm not saying we should force people to buy a SD card, just that the argument is invalid.


even if you can run the OS off the NAND only, you're not gonna go far without an SD card.


if you can afford to buy a 500$ Open Pandora device:


- you're not the usual technologically illiterate DS/PSP-limited user


- you can afford a 5 - 20$ SD card


- you probably have at least 2 old SD cards just lying around


- its perfectly user-friendly to have a "OS not found, format SD card and install OS ?" button


now, nothing prevents having a tool in the default, NAND-installed, fully working, OS that would do this either.


format SD card (after confirmation and only if just 1 SD card / external drive is present to be sure) properly


install copy of NAND (or download) base image(s)


have an option to trampoline-boot to external OS.

 

[Prometheus]

Straw-men. The argument is not invalid - way to miss my point completely. You even completely ignored the part about how mandating that would force people to lose one of the device's features, which was the whole point.


Read the rest of the thread for the rest - I've no desire to reinvent the wheel by repeating what I've already said before.

 

[bismuthdrummer]

We're not discussing cameras or Vitas, we're discussing handheld Linux PC's. Cameras have no OS options, and the Vita won't have any until people hack it, which still is not the same as the interchangeable Pandora. And we're not discussing options, we're discussing defaults since the original poster posited that the default OS will receive the most community support.


I am in the NAND OS camp here:


SD-free boot > bigger OS and using NAND as backup


Requiring the common Open Pandora customer to boot from SD by default would be a terrible business decision for OPT. We don't need the Open Pandora to become more niche than it already is.