Pandora Killed The Wiz

[SomeGuy99]

Really how do people learn this stuff on their own in any kind of reasonable timeframe? They must be single with only a part time job or something.

Ouch. I don't think you realise what you just did.

Don't get too offended. Please realize I'm only kidding, so put down the torches and pitchforks!!! :unsure:

 

[tristan.clark]

I've never had or used any GPH products reading the thread though it sounds like that could be interesting.

Personally I find the open source aspect of Pandora interesting not only as a source of games and applications to run but also as a coder (well I did some coding at college, rusty and was never that good at the time) the access to the source code gives me worked examples to look at. From that point of view the input of Pickle and others, where they feel its appropriate to release source code, can be really helpful to see how its done. The community hopefully (as whole, not trying to put more pressure on certain coders) has the talent within it that polite enquiries can be made to clarify issues, style, technique etc.

And just like everyone else I have a day job, a family, so IF I make it as a decent coder my time working on the Pandora or whatever else comes along is limited. Hopefully the people that want to have a go and are willing to see what they are capable of will out weight the 'consumer mentality' that don't seem to understand the community.

 

[Dunny]

Nothing to do with the software available for me - I can port my own. I bought (to my eternal regret) a GP2X. That soured the deal for me, and I refrained from buying a launch-day Wiz. My fears were more than justified at the woefully underpowered chipset, the total lack of wireless connection, the badly implemented (or almost complete lack of) USB connectivity, and the cheap as chips display system - which aside from being a phone screen rotated 90 degrees which brings the diagonal tear, also inflicted the dreaded pixel plague on a worryingly high number of Wiz owners.

GPH continue to amaze and delight with the still unreleased Wifi dongle and the still unreleased software that promised to push the hardware to new levels of sophistication.

The Pandora had absolutely nothing to do with me not getting a Wiz (and hence, not developing for it) - the Wiz is itself the reason I don't have one.

D.

 

[Pickle]

Thanks for the nice words, its appreciated. (but I want to keep this thread on topic)

I think this an important discussion that I hope would enable other wiz owners to decide to have the will to support themselves. (I want more the ol'GP2X days and less of the PSP entitlement)

Damn, now I feel guilty for asking you about zdoom, sorry.

Back on topic. The Wiz is definately going to take a hit in the developer dept when the Pandora is Shipped. But the scene won't die, at least not until GPH releases their next model and even then, are the GP32 or GP2X scenes dead? They've certainly slowed but they're still here. The Wiz has it's niche and I think there's going to be dev's around to support it for a while yet, Pandora or not.

No your missing my point ;-), im not having an issue with people asking questions. I have an issue with people whining when they dont get what they want. Theres a phrase "Have your cake and eat it too", which what I think some in the community have.
And actually your response is exactly what i was talking about. If you really want to see something happen, learn and do it yourself. Although you might need to start small and work towards that goal.

Wait, wait, wait, you don't think I was trying to be a wise-ass do you? Not at all, I honestly felt bad after reading your post. Anywho, I think you're absolutely right about people wanting and demanding whatever and not giving any kind of thanks or respect when they get it. Precisely the reason I stopped following the PSP scene. It's funny you should mention it because I recently started reading up on Python. So expect my first release in, I dunno, 5 years or so with the amount of time I can manage to put into it. LOL!!! Really how do people learn this stuff on their own in any kind of reasonable timeframe? They must be single with only a part time job or something.

no (i have no issue with you whats so ever), your last response in the other thread is the approach I think it is the right.
Heres an example: back in the gp2x time dosbox wasnt running well at all. With some tips from others and some hacking and testing I was able to get a more stable dosbox. (I did it cause I wanted to use it). This was before we had the dynamic core, I was hoping to get the most out of dosbox and the dynamic core was really the best option. Adding it at was beyond my skill and time to learn so I put out a call to anyone that had the time and ability to help out and it get it working. I didnt get any real responses at the time, and was expecting nothing would come of it. So i left it at that. Shortly after M_HT dropped a bomb and had started the dynamic core for ARM. And now we have it for wiz and pandora.
Ask. Learn. Contribute.

 

[SomeGuy99]

I think a porting tutorial from the devs would be a great idea.

I'm pretty certain we have a lot of technical users (who maybe aren't coders) that could compile a Linux app and put it into a PND. Not counting issues like opengl/opengl es and screen resolution issues.

Using the community as willing slave labour, we could fill the appstore with Linux apps pretty quickly. Doesn't the average Linux repository have over 20,000 programs? Best start slaving.

 

[Jumpman]

For me personally, The Wiz killed the Wiz! I bought one last july, as I had sold my GP2X, and wanted something to tide me over waiting on the Pandora, but sadly it just didn't really do anything the GP2X couldn't do. I sold mine a few weks ago, as it was the same stuff that was on the 2X, with a slight improvement. I really just wish I had kept my DaveC modded GP2X, as I could have saved my money and time.

The Wiz really needed to be something more IMO to get interest sparked, but sadly GPH took the easy way out, and just really didn't supply what the community wanted. Even if the Pandora had never been made, I really think many would have just went the smart phone, dingoo, route.

The Pandora or something like it was bound to happen once the community gets fed up with lack luster products. I know Ed has said he looks to continue support for all open source units, but I think Craigs attitude of being over and done with GPH ASAP is the best route to go. You can't have a community based product, and not listen to the community, it's just bad for business.

Chris

 

[Rockthesmurf]

Isn't this like asking your favourite band to do a new album, and then they get up on stage, infront of all their fans and say 'Come on guys. Just learn the guitar! Make your own music!

I think less gamers are coders than music fans play the guitar. You can blame Nintendo if you like. Actually... Nintendo wanted to make the Nes a proper microcomputer with Basic. Blame 80's American youth?

Hey Hey Im the Pickle
Im always coding all day
People are always gripin
And on top of it I get no pay

Hey Hey Im the Pickle
I stopped coding to make this song
maybe it will make the wiz people happy
we dont have to wait for the pandora for too long

I hope you didn't take time out of your Wiz coding budget to sing songs, we aren't paying you to sing songs, in fact we aren't paying you at all, oh, that's the whole point! As you were!



Steve

 

[tristan.clark]

Isn't this like asking your favourite band to do a new album, and then they get up on stage, infront of all their fans and say 'Come on guys. Just learn the guitar! Make your own music!

I think less gamers are coders than music fans play the guitar. You can blame Nintendo if you like. Actually... Nintendo wanted to make the Nes a proper microcomputer with Basic. Blame 80's American youth?

Hey Hey Im the Pickle
Im always coding all day
People are always gripin
And on top of it I get no pay

Hey Hey Im the Pickle
I stopped coding to make this song
maybe it will make the wiz people happy
we dont have to wait for the pandora for too long

Sung to the theme from The Monkees?

 

[TitanUranus]

Well, this isn't really about the Wiz, it's about the creators of software and what people can contribute to a 'scene'. I think everyone can contribute something. I'm single, I have no job and I can just about write "hello world" in languages like 'c' or BASIC. It's funny really, I'm actually quite bright and usually quick to pick things up but I struggle with any programming. I've tried to learn, using guides I zip through the first 5 chapters then it starts talking about maths and I think... bugger I hate maths. I honestly don't think I have the methodical way of thinking needed to become a coder, it takes a lot of dedication.

Here's a quick true story though about the different way people think. about 10 years ago I was with my mate, a software engineer and I overheard his teams converstion. They were distraught because the whole office network had died, one PC was a non bootable wreck and they knew the only way to fix it was to format and reinstall. Their problem was it was full of vital data, that was only kept on that machine and in they used to rely on the newtork for backing up. Honestly they'd spent the whole morning trying to figure up a way to communicate with the PC and/or fix it to save their data. I said "why don't you just take the hard drive out, bung it in that working PC over there, copy the then reinstall" they thought it was a great idea, but really it just seemed obvious. I couldn't believe anyone could be bothered farting around with the buggered PC. They on the other hand felt there must be a 'proper' way to fix the problem.

I could never in a hundered years create the stuff their little company made - to me what they did on their PC's looked like magic, genuine skillfull wizardry well beyond my humble abilities. Sure I can still chip in with the odd idea that might be useful. If one idea fails try another then another, but creating a logical path towards an ultimate goal and following it thorough is just so difficult for me. For that I'm in the hands of the gods, the coders.

 

[Ravnos]

Stop kidding around. If it wasn't for the pandora then thousands would have bought the Wiz.

I had decided early on that I wouldn't buy a GP2X replacement until something quite a bit better came along. The Wiz was only a small upgrade, so even without the Pandora, I would have passed. The early discussions about what kind of hardware was probably going to go into the Pandora had made me decide to pass on that, too, until the OMAP3 was selected as a base. Add onto that GPH's serious issues with quality control and I was in no rush to jump back into that sort of thing. I loved my GP2X, but I didn't need to drop $200 or whatever on a GP2.5X, you know? The Pandora is a pretty big leap over the GP2X, I would have gotten in on that Wiz or not, just as I would have passed on the Wiz whether or not there was a Pandora. Given the price and power difference, saying one killed the other is pretty ridiculous. It's not like the Wiz released at a roughly $330 price point.

 

[SomeGuy99]

I'm actually quite bright and usually quick to pick things up but I struggle with any programming.

Don't feel bad about it. Some people just aren't into programming. If you hang out in open source crowds they tend to give the impression that everyone is, but it's probably a minority.

I mean, think of all those eighties kids who programmed in Basic but never went on to work as a programmer. I meet so many people who could write a program on their C64 or Spectrum, but wouldn't even dream of attempting that now. And they never took it as a career option because maybe it didn't satisfy them enough.

I've tried to learn, using guides I zip through the first 5 chapters then it starts talking about maths and I think... bugger I hate maths. I honestly don't think I have the methodical way of thinking needed to become a coder, it takes a lot of dedication.

I think it's arguable whether you need maths or not. You can just plug in an algorithm made by someone else and not need to understand how it works. For example, as a teen, the program I made which impressed people the most just used some 3D point rendering maths I nicked from GameDev. It wasn't something I put any creativity or engineering thought into - I just took the maths and coded an interface to go around it. I ended up with a little Visual Basic window - you could draw pixels on the screen, and then use the second or third mouse button to spin or translate the pixels around in three dimensions.

I only made the program to see if the maths even worked, out of curiosity. But man, the reactions I got from people... you'd think I was David Copperfield flying around the room. They thought it was some dark magic, peering at the window in awe. They would treat me like a wizard, but really I hadn't done anything that interesting.

So then I show them something which took months of hard engineering and creativity and lateral thinking. 'Big deal' was the reaction. It wasn't showy enough, clearly you needed to be a coder to appreciate that achievement.

I couldn't believe anyone could be bothered farting around with the buggered PC. They on the other hand felt there must be a 'proper' way to fix the problem.

I think it's a programmer instinct to take an interest in another programmers work, especially if it goes wrong. I imagine they wanted to understand and correct the flaw.

 

[sixtyfifthbit]

Im not using it, it was enjoyable to see it run the way it should. Im not looking for praise, but respect.

Who let you out of your cage? Get back to work!

I am Pickle, hear me roar!

Definitely not a Vlassic.

 

[TitanUranus]

Thank you SomeGuy99, a very kind and heartening response. I used to do the old c64 BASIC bouncing balls and stuff. I always remember getting those magazine listings to poke games and get infinite lives etc... I always wondered how on earth they came up with all those data lines and how they actually figured out where to poke the memory in the first place. If only I'd had VICE emulator with all the software and my I7 Quad Core PC back in 1985, how much more fun could a human ask for?

 

[SomeGuy99]

Thank you SomeGuy99, a very kind and heartening response. I used to do the old c64 BASIC bouncing balls and stuff. I always remember getting those magazine listings to poke games and get infinite lives etc... I always wondered how on earth they came up with all those data lines and how they actually figured out where to poke the memory in the first place. If only I'd had VICE emulator with all the software and my I7 Quad Core PC back in 1985, how much more fun could a human ask for?

A few years ago a guy I knew was throwing out some C64 books, which I said i'd happily give a new home.

One of these books is the complete assembly code listing for the C64 rom. What's the ROM? Well maybe you don't know, but it stands for read-only-memory, and was used to store the the operating system of the machine. It's a lot like the NAND memory on the Pandora, but obviously you can't change it at all. The main reason for this was because flashable (writable) chips were way too expensive at the time (this was over twenty years ago). ROM chips can cost pennies I think, even then. But yeah, this had an advantage in that the operating system was essentially identical on every machine (although some machines from that era had a changeable ROM chip, like the Amiga and BBC).

So, this book was effectively the source code for the C64 OS. The OS being the interface between the application and the hardware on the machine. It was also documented in great detail! So an interested programmer could sit and read it on the toilet and find out what it all does.

These days, the equivalent would be documentation from Microsoft about how the Windows API works. An API is an application programming interface, and acts as a layer between the OS (which runs in memory) and the hardware. It was needed because the PC is such a non-fixed platform, with all sorts of hardware combinations (just think of the Dos days, where every game had to write multiple sound card drivers just to work across the board). Also, your OS now exists on writable memory (your hard disk) and is subject to change. Programming with the API is consistent, just like programming with the C64 ROM was consistent.

What you were doing with peeks and pokes was rewriting parts of the program stored in memory. For example, you can give yourself an extra life by changing a machine code instruction that subtracts one from the lives variable to something else (eg. do nothing). All cheat cartridges and cheat code systems use the same thing, even now.

If you're interested, you can view the assembly output for Windows quite easily. Microsoft even provides the tools for this (or at least they used to back in the Windows 98 era, it was a dos command). The process is called dissassembly, but it won't be all that useful - the output is just far too much to humanly read or work with (because executables are now millions of lines long).

 

[Sphinxter]

GPH needs help from no one to kill their platforms.

 

[philly]

Did the Pandora kill the Wiz??? Well it did for me!!!

It never would have if GPH had listened to what the gp32 and gp2x communities wanted and reacted instead of forcing Craig and Co. to come up with a machine that could do the things we wanted.

I'd of bought a wiz out of pure desperation, if it wasnt for the promise of something better!

 

[Monk]

Stop kidding around. If it wasn't for the pandora then thousands would have bought the Wiz.

You think over half the people that bought a Pandora would have settled with a Wiz if it were the only thing available?

I think it's quite possible that half the number of Pandora preorder slots could have gone to the Wiz - possibly including myself - if the Pandora hadn't existed, or hadn't been promised for long, long before it was possible to deliver. That's a much lower number, it seems, than the number of people who have preordered a Pandora during its pre-sales life, as there have been many cancellations (which signifies to me a larger pool of potential owners for Open gaming handheld than are willing to be on the preorder lists).

 

[Elanzer]

If anything the Wiz killed itself with it's stupid double dpads.

Aside from that, Dingoo probably did more damage to the Wiz than Pandora.

 

[elwing]

Aside from that, Dingoo probably did more damage to the Wiz than Pandora.

yep, I'dd personally bought a dingoo if the pandora did not exist and surely not a wiz... (in fact if I wern't stuck with a pandora preorder i'dd have bought a dingoo almost a year ago... hopefully it looks like we might get it by the end of this summer... I'm still not too confident through)

 

[Pleng]

You think over half the people that bought a Pandora would have settled with a Wiz if it were the only thing available?
Personally, if the Pandora weren't available, I may have gotten a Dingoo.

Was the Dingoo even available when the Wiz was released. If it was I had certainly never heard of it. I eventually came to purchase a Dingoo when I was contemplating the need for a Wiz to tide me over for the short wait for Pandora (this was like a year ago), but I hadn't heard of it when I was originally deciding between a Wiz or Pandora at pre-order time.