On marketing and buzzwords

[slaeshjag]

No, I didn't actually have a reference handy, and I didn't think of using maths. I blame not being used to your silly imperial mesurments

 

[sandwhich]

I am very grateful that there are still sane minds defending what I (and probably most of the rest of the pandora userbase) want of this successor. Thank you.

 

[Grench]

How would the device being 6" diagonal go down?

If given a choice, I'd go up to a 6.5" (165mm) diagonal if it means that the device could be 5mm thinner.


6" (152mm) diagonal would be fine, but how thick? Can we reach 20mm?

 

[Grench]

As it is now, Android has a lobotimized and incomplete enviroment. As long as that doesn't change, I will reject Android with disgust. That is, until you can run normal linux apps and shellscripts in Android, no deal. I'm not programming for Android, I'm programing for a real distro. At the moment, that's two completely different things.

Android can't even launch native programs.. yes there's NDK, but it still has to be called by Dalvik programs. It's a real pain in the ass to port a lot of things to because you have to shim a lot of API stuff through Java. I had a C program that used rfcomm to talk over Bluetooth that I needed to port to Android.. this has been an easy port to a bunch of other Linux platforms (Ubuntu on x86, Neo Freerunner, Nokia N900, even Windows w/Cygwin) but of course a straight port to Android wasn't going to happen. Trying to separate the C stuff into some kind of Android BT Java interface proved so much work that I eventually just rewrote the whole thing in Java..


So no, Android is not just Linux with an elaborate costume on nor just another Linux distribution. All of userspace can't be likened to a "front end", much less one that can be switched at will.

Currently you are both correct. That was not the scenario I presented.


Please note the ongoing re-merger of the Android fork into the primary kernel. From the article linked to above: "Today, you can compile the Android code in Linux 3.3 and it will boot. Still, as Kroah-Hartman warned, WakeLocks, still aren't in the main kernel, but even that's getting worked on. For all essential purposes, Android and Linux are back together again."


It is getting closer - it may or may not be in a state where there can be one underlying OS installation and be able to switch 'front ends' by 2014, but it is moving forward faster than anyone had thought possible.


Instead of thrashing the existing state of Android - consider it's potential future value in a re-merged kernel environment.

 

[craigix]

As it is now, Android has a lobotimized and incomplete enviroment. As long as that doesn't change, I will reject Android with disgust. That is, until you can run normal linux apps and shellscripts in Android, no deal. I'm not programming for Android, I'm programing for a real distro. At the moment, that's two completely different things.

Android can't even launch native programs.. yes there's NDK, but it still has to be called by Dalvik programs. It's a real pain in the ass to port a lot of things to because you have to shim a lot of API stuff through Java. I had a C program that used rfcomm to talk over Bluetooth that I needed to port to Android.. this has been an easy port to a bunch of other Linux platforms (Ubuntu on x86, Neo Freerunner, Nokia N900, even Windows w/Cygwin) but of course a straight port to Android wasn't going to happen. Trying to separate the C stuff into some kind of Android BT Java interface proved so much work that I eventually just rewrote the whole thing in Java..


So no, Android is not just Linux with an elaborate costume on nor just another Linux distribution. All of userspace can't be likened to a "front end", much less one that can be switched at will.

Currently you are both correct. That was not the scenario I presented.


Please note the ongoing re-merger of the Android fork into the primary kernel. From the article linked to above: "Today, you can compile the Android code in Linux 3.3 and it will boot. Still, as Kroah-Hartman warned, WakeLocks, still aren't in the main kernel, but even that's getting worked on. For all essential purposes, Android and Linux are back together again."


It is getting closer - it may or may not be in a state where there can be one underlying OS installation and be able to switch 'front ends' by 2014, but it is moving forward faster than anyone had thought possible.


Instead of thrashing the existing state of Android - consider it's potential future value in a re-merged kernel environment.

^ absolutely. I've never doubted this. Android is a force for good for Linux, it will take it places it would never have reached.

 

[Exophase]

Sharing a kernel doesn't mean Android becomes Linux (or at least Linux as it's usually defined). Hopefully you'd be able to switch between the two, even dynamically, and share filesystems. But that isn't the same thing. There's still way more to the difference between the two than anything you'd call a front end, and that is probably never going to change. They have totally different goals and restrictions.


How exactly did this thread become the catch-all for random Pandora 2 design discussion? Pretty much everything people randomly started talking about here has a thread going somewhere else for..

 

[sebt3]

having the same kernel doesnt give you the same presentation layer : android doesnt use X11 while graphical linux app does (I'm forgetting fb apps on purpose)


Android dont use the same audio API as Linux apps.


Android doesnt provide the now defacto standard in desktop inter-process communication deamon d-bus.


The list goes on and on and on.


Trust us when we say that the kernel is not enough.


The current android PND take advantage of the kernel merger. But once Android is started you cannot use any linux apps anymore : the PND does stop X11.


The kernel merge cannot bring you more than what the current android PND does already

 

[ekianjo]

How exactly did this thread become the catch-all for random Pandora 2 design discussion? Pretty much everything people randomly started talking about here has a thread going somewhere else for..

Simply because we started talking about marketing and how it should not be relevant to the design of the device, but some people think it is and are trying to push specs and functions anyway so that's why this thread is a mix of all kinds of stuff.

 

[Batou456]

Android is a Linux distribution.

This is completely and utterly incorrect, if a somewhat understandable misuderstanding. Linux is a common vernacular abbreviation for GNU/Linux, especially with regards to distributions. Android has a Java stack around the kernel which has little to nothing to do with the GNU stack.

It has it's own front end. Other Linux front ends include Unity, KDE, Gnome, XFCE.

Desktop environments are desktop environments, and Linux ones are not as integrated as the Windows Shell. For your statement to be even vaguely accurate you'd need to be able to open a Terminal on Android, and be able to use the full capabilities of the GNU stack.

This demonstrates you're failing to understand some rather basic things involving what an operating system is. There's a lot more to what makes an OS then just a kernel and a Desktop Environment shell. The basic concept of a kernel is that it's a program, which handles the important task of working as interface between the hardware and software, with an emphasis on the former and supporting tools seperate from the actual kernel emphasizing the latter. There is a _lot_ of middleware between the kernel and what you're thinking is the front end.


It might not help, but imagine you have a SQL database, and a web page that works through queries of a SQL database. Just like you would design a serious middleware in that case, so it is with an operating system.


P.S.


Why would you bring up Unity, but not mention LXDE given you mentioned the other three of the common four desktop environments?

However, it is in the process of re-merging to the general Linux kernel.

Hence the ability to run both side by side as TI has demonstrated, and various people in this thread are alluding to.

I've never doubted this. Android is a force for good for Linux, it will take it places it would never have reached.

How does Android further the goals of Free Software? Mostly I've see people use it to try to further this notion of having every computational device locked down to most extreme degree possible, because the "future" is "appliances." A notion that ignores the trend that everything that has computational elements to become more computer like their processing elements and supporting assets have allowed more slack in favor of reversions of everything from desktops down, and is in direct contradiction of everything the Free Software Foundation stands for.

From what I've seen only the Ubuntu community is really interested in this notion that everyone needs to use a Linux based operating system. Most people are more interested in increasing the number of people who can help improve the GNU/Linux ecosystem, having max flexibility in line with the ideals of Free Software, and aren't particularly interested in simply increasing the number of users for the sake of it.

 

[ShleeDragon]

Wow, that's a whole bunch of nothing.


The Pandora you need to think in layers. The linux kernel is at the bottom. the userland is in the middle and the android as a pair of abstraction layers HAL and VM (including all the libs) is located on the top...


Don't be afraid of Android, you can ignore it if you so wish. It doesn't take anything away and only offers us an additional stack to play with. It won't remove or limit anything.. We can still boot the same kernel and access all of the regular software packages. Just not at the same time.


If you want performance on par with PCXS. You wouldn't want to target android because of the multiple layers of abstraction and VMs... but we will be able to hopefully run most of the android library out of the box. Life is good.


If you don't want Android, you will not be forced to use it and can pretend it doesn't exist.

 

[_wb_]

I agree with most of what Jebe said. In my opinion, most of this discussion boils down to the old "open source" vs "free software" debate, with the Android camp firmly at the side of "open source". Having options is nice, and of course "open source" is still vastly better than proprietary shite. I don't mind if my Pandora can run Android, if OPT can sell more units or get access to nice hardware by supporting Android, fine. But I'm probably never going to use it myself, and I hope the Pandora community stays focused on creating an optimal GNU/Linux experience on the Pandora.


You say "don't be afraid of Android, you can ignore it, pretend it doesn't exist". OK. I'm just a bit afraid that the gap between Pandora users and Pandora devs gets wider since most of the devs are not a big fan of Android while most of the users (esp. those not familiar with GNU/Linux) like it, and may expect the devs to ignore GNU/Linux and make stuff for Android (tuned to the Pandora) instead. And that would be a major step in the wrong direction.

 

[erico]

I wonder if android approaching linux more and more has anything to do with their fight with java(oracle).


That is, if I got the stuff correct in my mind. ^_^

 

[mcobit]

Well, they won't drop the whole java stuff suddenly.


But it would be a step in the right direction

 

[SNESFAN]

I wonder if you could port linux to run on the dalvik vm. The components of android that is linux users and devs dont like i would imagine could be intergrated with android.


I was reading a story that explained they converted all a large functional portion of android from java to c#. Would it require rewriting linux from c to java or rewriting android from java to c?


Im out of my realm mostly talking about this stuff, but the point im trying to make is, instead of talking about what android is lacking, think about how it could be modified so it could be useful maybe?


Sent from my MB612 using Tapatalk 2

 

[ShleeDragon]

I wonder if android approaching linux more and more has anything to do with their fight with java(oracle).


That is, if I got the stuff correct in my mind. ^_^

Linux is C. Android is mostly C++ but the applications (SDK) is java-focused and based, which is compiled to bytecode, which is run on a JVM (dalvik) powered by C++. Different concepts. Java is a pretty high level language which is compiled into something friendly but it doesn't run natively. The JVM runs the java bytecode similar to Android being compiled to the android DVM.


"Porting android" is a non-starter.. If you mean, porting an android application to run inside our Xorg based system as a single static binary... not really worth it or possible.


You guys are getting your metaphors mixed.

 

[erico]

oh , not much mixed, I do have some little understanding of what is going under(and tnks for making it more clear), it was just a hunch based on recent corporate activities.


But I have to agree with Mcobit, it would be nice if that happens

 

[ShleeDragon]

oh , not much mixed, I do have some little understanding of what is going under(and tnks for making it more clear), it was just a hunch based on recent corporate activities.


But I have to agree with Mcobit, it would be nice if that happens

Android is all about abstraction layers. Which is why it works on so much hardware so quickly. this abstracton is what real devs dislike about it.


Kernel ( C ) - Userland(C/C++) - Android HAL(C++) - Android userland(C++) - dalvik VM(C++) - Android application(Java bytecode).

 

[erico]

Agree, but the ability to also support the lower ones without hassle would be welcome as an alternative.


I take java is an easy + or - language for people to learn, so it is good it supports such high level stuff should you want tons of stuff made to it, or even pioneering experiments, but I still think it would be nice to have alternatives on the lower side of things.


Just some thoughts, I´m not even sure they are actually any close to being correct.

 

[ekianjo]

I agree with most of what Jebe said. In my opinion, most of this discussion boils down to the old "open source" vs "free software" debate, with the Android camp firmly at the side of "open source". Having options is nice, and of course "open source" is still vastly better than proprietary shite. I don't mind if my Pandora can run Android, if OPT can sell more units or get access to nice hardware by supporting Android, fine. But I'm probably never going to use it myself, and I hope the Pandora community stays focused on creating an optimal GNU/Linux experience on the Pandora.

Not everything in Android is open-source, though. Of course, all the Google applications Android calls have very closed server side software. And that's part of the Android package, whether you like or not, it's integrated. At least a Linux distro is not permanently leaking data to a specific single party and you know where your data is going out and coming in.

 

[mcobit]

They are porting to c#?


Thats as high level as java.