Nvidia's Project Shield - 'Android & Tegra 4 inside'

[monstercameron]

@, there is no way the tegra 4 and 1gb ram cost another $100 and neither does the value the shield go up because of any special manufacturing or premium material bump. I bet this thing cost a little over $100 to make, looking at the specs and from the outside looking in nvidia wont have to worry about making a profit off the socs by themselves and are directly supporting the system, thats cost saving. Just because nvidia makes it doesnt make it inherently a higher value either or premium, the thing seems to be all plastic...

it looks great but the price is definitely high, is it TOO high is the question?

 

[SNESFAN]

Your argument of lack of value is without an example of any kind other than your own opinion. I provided a good example of what an upgrade "costs" to the consumer on a device in the same niche. You could also take a looser example of a nintendo wii vs wiiu for a $100 upgrade... but it's hard to compare those because they're not exactly bare metal computers and not directly comparable, too much licensing subsidies etc as I mentioned greatly effects your profit margins and what you can sell for potentially even at a loss if you have a good enough walled garden.

there is no way the tegra 4 and 1gb ram cost another $100

tell that to the pandora customers, I'm sure they would disagree with that statement. How much would you pay for a cortex a9 or a15 pandora vs an a8? I would pay $200 right now... hell I paid $200 for just 256mb of ram (CC->GC).... just saying

If you have a better example of where a significant processor/ram/gpu upgrade is proven to be cheaper on another device in the same realm of what we're talking about, I'm open to listen. Hell even a bump of flash memory can mean the difference between $50-100

http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_ipod/family/ipod_touch

https://play.google.com/store/devices/details?id=nexus_7_16gb

I meant manufacturing makes things cheaper, this was aimed at pandora vs sony or jxd or nvidia or whomever. Thats why I didn't do a direct $ for $ price comparison with the pandora. I'm trying to compare on a level playing field.

Price per part for the manufacturer is irrelevant in retail. It's the price for comparable products already on the market that maters. Watch the automobile and housing manufacturing market and try to explain those prices!?!? The only time it's relevant is when the price to produce is > retail price. Sometimes the bottom line forces you to increase your price which could severely hurt your sales. (initial PS3 launch price $600, horrible sales regardless of their namesake and history) Point is, you can't say, you can produce this item for this amount so you have to sell it at around cost or else it's not worth the cost when comparing value. A similar point of reference is what is required when judging value.

It's not too high. When I threw out there the "$300 sweet spot" phenomena, it's a thing that happens in the gaming market. Game consoles sell for more or less $300. some a little higher, some a little lower. But $300 is the medean price. Scale for inflation, and we're at the high end of $300, so I said $300-$400. You obviously disagree that a game console should retail for that much, but I think the market thinks otherwise. 

http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php/topic/11434-nvidias-project-shield-android-tegra-4-inside/page-8#entry214113

 

[monstercameron]

there is no way the tegra 4 and 1gb ram cost another $100

tell that to the pandora customers, I'm sure they would disagree with that statement. How much would you pay for a cortex a9 or a15 pandora vs an a8? I would pay $200 right now... hell I paid $200 for just 256mb of ram (CC->GC).... just saying

I dont think you should be too proud of that...

If you have a better example of where a significant processor/ram upgrade is proven to be cheaper on another device in the same realm of what we're talking about, I'm open to listen. Hell even a bump of flash memory can mean the difference between $50-100

because this is standard practice doesnt make it right or exempt their prices from being too high...

Price per part for the manufacturer is irrelevant in retail. It's the price for comparable products already on the market that maters. Watch the automobile and housing manufacturing market and try to explain those prices!?!? The only time it's relevant is when the price to produce is > retail price. Sometimes the bottom line forces you to increase your price which could severely hurt your sales. (initial PS3 launch price $600, horrible sales regardless of their namesake and history) Point is, you can't say, you can produce this item for this amount so you have to sell it at around cost or else it's not worth the cost when comparing value. A similar point of reference is what is required when judging value.

with that said, if we compare similar devices(nintendo 3ds $168/199, ps vita $199/249, archos gamepad ~$180, nexus 7 + sixaxis $280) we can see it is at minimum $50 overpriced, for me it is $100 over priced, with those specs it should be max $249...devices within the same price bracket have 1080p or greater displays, better battery life, windows 8, ios and more...the value of the shield seems low, how is it as a tablet, how is it as a gaming device? we have to wait the objectively measure value.

It's not too high. When I threw out there the "$300 sweet spot" phenomena, it's a thing that happens in the gaming market. Game consoles sell for more or less $300. some a little higher, some a little lower. But $300 is the medean price. Scale for inflation, and we're at the high end of $300, so I said $300-$400. You obviously disagree that a game console should retail for that much, but I think the market thinks otherwise.

The circle jerk of $300 console pricing, seems like a way to take advantage of customers but it is your opinion that it isnt too high and mine that it is(though I am very interested). In the end we have to wait for consumer response because it seems the consumer as a whole dictates value.

 

[Exophase]

Shield needs to be more expensive if anything because it has three separate battery cells, more assembly parts, and more provisions for cooling.

I own a JXD S7300 and it's an okay device but you definitely get what you pay for. My micro USB port already barely works, and I'm afraid to charge it with the included adapter after hearing stories of it exploding. After dropping it once the switch behind one of the volume buttons went flying out because it was barely soldered on. Despite what the review says my experience with the touchscreen is that it's not very good. This is for a product whose reviews favored much better than the Archos Gamepad's - I wouldn't touch that thing with a ten foot pole, it sounds like total garbage.

There's no way Shield's BOM cost is < $100, and even if a lot of it was made and assembled in China it still has to recoup pretty big fixed engineering and recurring support costs by a California based company; they did say it was in planning for years. I doubt nVidia is anticipating huge volume and they'd be pretty foolish to dump a bunch of money into it under those hopes. Systems like 3DS and Vita that are subsidized by game sales shouldn't even enter the conversation. Saying that it should be at max the same price as Nexus 7 is at least as bizarre, when there are several aspects of this that make it more expensive. Besides that, Google probably pitches in something to make all the Nexus branded devices cheaper, like the Nexus 4 costing a lot less than other comparable phones.

 

[monstercameron]

risk/reward. If they do this half assed, it'll cost them more. As for bom cost, maybe a little over $100 is a bit low, maybe a bit under $200 is reasonable. The nexus 7 had a bom of around ~$160 so it could be  a little higher(and for what? louder speakers, 36Whr battery or case design). This is a numbers game, if they can't push enough shields then they can't attract enough games to the platform to take advantage of the features, like what is happening to the current THD situation(30 or so games over the past 2 years?). Also the shield seems to be co marketed with kepler based gpus, although it isn't straight up subsidizing, it could bring in more profit...

 

[Exophase]

If you think they'd ever push a ton of Shields at any price that they didn't lose money on then you're dreaming. If Sony is struggling with Vita how is nVidia supposed to compete with something Android based launching with little more than a few enhanced versions of available games?

nVidia themselves have even said that they don't need to sell a ton of these for them to consider it a success. Should tell you something about their plans and expectations.

 

[vcoleiro1]

I think we all guessed  Nvidia would price it at around $350, is it expensive, public concensus says yes.  Every article I read and the vast majority of comments by people were all that anything over $200 - $250 at a stretch would be way over priced.  Now that the price has been revealed, whats the concensus that peoiple are voicing in the comment sections in Engadget etc. Yep you guessed it, it's way way over priced.

Were talking about a device that is pretty much twice the cost of what you can pickup a PS Vita for.  Twice!

Remember the Vita was the Tegra 4 gaming device of its time when it came out.  Even at it's launch price(~$250) it was still deemed pricey by some, Even the 3DS price had to be slashed massively before it started to sell.  Unfortunately after the GFC , people expect more for their dollar in the gaming world, particularly when tablets and smartphones have etched a segment of the market away.

 

[Franko]

I can see why it's currently launching at that price.  The R&D and the all-in-one design warrants that (screen, controller, battery, etc).  I just won't buy it because I'm interested in truly portable gaming solutions, and I just desire a more discreet design.  This is a bulky, carry-along device, but NOT pocketable.  Pandora > Shield, in many ways that matter to me*


*Your individual usage case(s) may not match mine - When I go places I just travel lightly - no backpacks, fanny-packs, etc...

 

[vcoleiro1]

According to The Verge they have reduced the battery size , storage and it will be launching in June with Beta PC Streaming as there is still lag and issues.   

I know Nvidia like to charge a premium for their products. But there was always the business case that if priced right, it could have pushed people to buy their graphics cards which are needed for the PC Streaming.  The Graphic cards being where the money is for them.  They could have gone down that path, but they didn't - Oh well.  

 

[crazyhorse]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/DPhImlhEVX8?feature=oembed


I prefer the more open nature of Android ( compared to Vita) and with the awesome speakers on this Netflix and others should be sweet!

 

[Franko]

^ Yes, if you're comparing the two devices (Shield vs Vita) upon that criteria, then I agree.

...and I'm not even saying that it's "overpriced".  Not at what it promises to provide...it's just not my cup of tea. 

 

[vcoleiro1]

By the way, in regards to the three batteries the Shield uses. They opted to go for Standard mass produced 18650 batteries , they would probably cost less than $6. If they had of gone for one battery of custom size(like in some tablets/smartphones ect) , that would have been way more pricey.  ie They went for the cheapest battery option - sometimes like in this case, more is less

 

[klapse]

Unfortunately after the GFC , people expect more for there dollar in the gaming world, particularly when tablets and smartphones have etched a segment of the market away.

Which people expect more for their dollar in the gaming world? I think there are different classes of gamer, some with more disposable income in their bank accounts than others. There is no single set price point for Nvidia where their customers will all decide to buy or not buy their product.


There...

 

[vcoleiro1]

Unfortunately after the GFC , people expect more for there dollar in the gaming world, particularly when tablets and smartphones have etched a segment of the market away.

Which people expect more for their dollar in the gaming world? I think there are different classes of gamer, some with more disposable income in their bank accounts than others. There is no single set price point for Nvidia where their customers will all decide to buy or not buy their product.


There...

I was talking about the consensus as I mentioned- ie the majority, that would be who I was referring to. 

Sure people will still buy it at $350 - no doubt at all, not the majority of people in the market for a handheld though.  

The reaction on all tech sites in the comments is that it is way to pricey. 

 

[klapse]

Yes it is TOO pricey to sell to the majority of gamers. Too bad.

 

[vcoleiro1]

Yes it is TOO pricey to sell to the majority of gamers. Too bad.

Where would we be without  internet spelling correction officers like you Klapse.  I applaud your Anal need for spelling to be 100% correct in all posts. Thank you so much for pointing it out

 

[Franko]

Huhh..uhh uhhhh....you said "Anal"...(Butthead slaps me in the face)...Ouch!  Cut that out!

 

[Franko]

I understoood U vcoleiro...but I'm not sure if that's anything to put on a resume.  Better leave me out of it....

 

[SeeThruHead]

I wish android had a real game scene. Sure there are a few gems but there is nothing like consoles. I want to pay 40 dollars for an android game, I really do, as long as the game is worth it. But we are stuck with cheap garbage games and free games with microtransactions (not interested in that.) Good thing there is the 3ds and to a lesser extent the vita to (try to) save portable gaming for now.

 

[SNESFAN]

Shield needs to be more expensive if anything because it has three separate battery cells, more assembly parts, and more provisions for cooling.


I own a JXD S7300 and it's an okay device but you definitely get what you pay for. My micro USB port already barely works, and I'm afraid to charge it with the included adapter after hearing stories of it exploding. After dropping it once the switch behind one of the volume buttons went flying out because it was barely soldered on. Despite what the review says my experience with the touchscreen is that it's not very good. This is for a product whose reviews favored much better than the Archos Gamepad's - I wouldn't touch that thing with a ten foot pole, it sounds like total garbage.


There's no way Shield's BOM cost is < $100, and even if a lot of it was made and assembled in China it still has to recoup pretty big fixed engineering and recurring support costs by a California based company; they did say it was in planning for years. I doubt nVidia is anticipating huge volume and they'd be pretty foolish to dump a bunch of money into it under those hopes. Systems like 3DS and Vita that are subsidized by game sales shouldn't even enter the conversation. Saying that it should be at max the same price as Nexus 7 is at least as bizarre, when there are several aspects of this that make it more expensive. Besides that, Google probably pitches in something to make all the Nexus branded devices cheaper, like the Nexus 4 costing a lot less than other comparable phones.

I got a S7300 as well. I can't say my experience has been as bad as yours. It's held it's own quite well considering it's a ticking time bomb of cheapness. After getting my first JXD device the JXD S601, I got kinda accustomed to what to expect, It's true they are getting better and higher quality with each iteration, but at the same time they're getting progressively more expensive. I think a lot of the reviewers have owned a previous JXD or YINLIPS device so it makes them unknowingly biased or at least a different point of reference when reporting the good or bad. They aren't comparing the gamepads to nexus 7's and iPad and whatnot usually.

The touch screen is one of the best of this category of handhelds, it doesn't exactly compare to a smart phone in terms of responsiveness, and the viewing angles is subpar even considering it's price IMO. I will say the responsiveness got a lot better once I removed the included screen protector. I don't know if it's just the screen they used, but the sensor didn't appear to like anything less than a direct touch.

but anyway, it's what $150 should feel like, and it does.

I don't think monstercameron either agrees or gets what I keep saying in different ways, so I'm just going to stop responding and leave him with the "agree to disagree" I don't like the circle argument thing. You obviously see what I was getting at, so my point is comming across to someone, mission accomplished.

Anyway, I am taking a leap of faith that this delivers in the build quality realm. After seeing the regurgitated technology that was in the archos gamepad, (basically JXD level of quality innards, if not worse) coming from a mainline manufacturer. I am kinda scared, but I still have confidence this will turn out good. Archos appear to be using similarly priced hardware inside their fancy shell as JXD and Yinlips which just turned out bad, if they didn't cut corners and use a more reputable SoC maker, it would have turned out to be a half decent product I'm thinking. The shell looked real solid, haven't heard anyone complain about the outsides.... just the insides.

I have yet to see a shit tegra device though. Every Tegra device I've owned and seen in the past has gotten stellar performance, or at a minimum, sufficient  That's why my money is on the shield being a success, and the price seems justified. I am expecting a premium product though, Hopefully it delivers. Their reputation and entire line of next gen tegras, not entirely, but partially, rest on this device's performance. That is the beauty of flagship devices, they usually pay quite a bit of attention to the small details. I should be able to say with confidence that the performance of this is going to be what is to be expected. That's sort of where the other android gamers seem to have most of their problems. So I believe this will "act" like a premium device. Hopefully it "feels" like one as well. They aren't known for their plastics manufacturing.... That's the gamble. Hopefully the extra money went into perfecting that.

[shameless plug]

I also want to say, I can't wait to try out drastic on this once you get the android port up and running!

[/shameless plug]