Nintendo 64

[lowtech]

I don't expect anything...I hope for and appreciate what you and others do... Also, I am very right about "porting an emulator is harder than writing a clone of a game," because what emulator are we specifically talking about? N64...so yes, a clone of a N64 game or just a N64 inspired game would be monumentally easier than trying to write a N64 emulator for the wiz. Please don't argue for the sake of arguing.

Anyone "could" write N64 inspired games, as in, they have the potential.

Professional means commercial, which in turn simply means in the case of a programmer or game designer, you do what you do for profit, not because you're necessarily any good at what you do nor aspire to do it well. Talent and generic-paid-for-professional-education are two different things.

 

[Exophase]

I don't expect anything...I hope for and appreciate what you and others do... Also, I am very right about "porting an emulator is harder than writing a clone of a game," because what emulator are we specifically talking about? N64...so yes, a clone of a N64 game or just a N64 inspired game would be monumentally easier than trying to write a N64 emulator for the wiz. Please don't argue for the sake of arguing.

I guess you don't understand the difference between porting and writing an emulator >_< And you didn't make it clear what the goals are. Yeah, writing an N64 style sake game might be easier than writing an N64 emulator for Wiz that runs games fullspeed only because the latter is likely not possible (otherwise, it'd be much easier for a skilled emulator author who isn't a skilled game designer to do the emulator). But you didn't say it had to be a fullspeed emulator and you didn't say it had to be written from nothing. You said porting, and some emulators are pretty damn easy to port.

Anyone "could" write N64 inspired games, as in, they have the potential.

What? What kind of argument is this? I suppose anyone has the potential to be an olympic gold medalist too? Most people, no matter how hard they try, will not have the necessary skills to make an N64 quality game.

Professional means commercial, which in turn simply means in the case of a programmer or game designer, you do what you do for profit, not because you're necessarily any good at what you do nor aspire to do it well. Talent and generic-paid-for-professional-education are two different things.

So you're saying that you don't have to be good at programming or designing games, nor even have an interest in doing it to be hired in the gaming industry? Wow, I had no idea that becoming a professional game developer was so easy! I think all those people without jobs right now should be signing up to be game developers.

You really take a lot of things for granted. Even getting a "generic-paid-for-professional-education" is not a trivial task that anyone can easily do. But you need far more than that to be successful in the game industry. And I already told you, that the people who have the skill to do professional quality work on their own don't just lack the resources but lack the time since they have real jobs they have to spend much of their time and and energy on.

 

[lowtech]

I guess you don't understand the difference between porting and writing an emulator >_<

No, I understand quite well the difference between porting and writing of an emulator. I simply use the terms a little interchangeably in this context because a hypothetical N64 emulator port for the wiz would require such heavy modification of how it performs it's emulation that the time and effort would be comparable to, or perhaps in the end would be the same as, writing it from scratch.

Yeah, writing an N64 style sake game might be easier than writing an N64 emulator for Wiz that runs games fullspeed only because the latter is likely not possible

You're repeating what I've already said.

. But you didn't say it had to be a fullspeed emulator and you didn't say it had to be written from nothing. You said porting, and some emulators are pretty damn easy to port.

I agree. But come back to the context of our discussion and show me an N64 emulator that would be easy to port to the wiz that would work near fullspeed. You can't. And you're right, I didn't say it had to be a full speed emulator, but when someone asks "can N64 be emulated on the wiz?" they mean a full speed or near full speed performance. but what should change is that most people are under the misconception that the only kind of emulation is accurate hardware emulation which allows code to be run unchanged on hardware for which it wasn't written for. My message is that Dev's and home brewers should think outside that limited definition of emulation.

(What? What kind of argument is this? I suppose anyone has the potential to be an olympic gold medalist too? Most people, no matter how hard they try, will not have the necessary skills to make an N64 quality game.

I'm not making an argument there, I'm trying to inspire people to learn how to code for the wiz. "the necessary skills"? Not every N64 game is of "N64" quality. And simply because a game is professional produced, doesn't make it automatically good. Just as a game made by a single person, unprofessionally, does not automatically mean it's bad. And who are you to say that "most" people will never have the necessary skills to make a quality game? Thats unfairly elitist and arrogant. Anyone that is willing to work at it and learn the necessary skills to make great video games, will very likely achieve their goals, unless a certain GBA emulator creator hits them in the head with a rock. (just a joke )

So you're saying that you don't have to be good at programming or designing games, nor even have an interest in doing it to be hired in the gaming industry? Wow, I had no idea that becoming a professional game developer was so easy! I think all those people without jobs right now should be signing up to be game developers.

No, I'm saying that someone with the required education and knows how to reproduce "professional standard" work is all that is necessary for the title of "professional" game designer or programmer. Its not easy to be a game developer, but its well within many people's capacity to pay for the required education to qualify for the title of "professional." Real talent is not required to receive the title of "professional," therefore the title of being a professional does not alone give you any merit.

You really take a lot of things for granted. Even getting a "generic-paid-for-professional-education" is not a trivial task that anyone can easily do. But you need far more than that to be successful in the game industry. And I already told you, that the people who have the skill to do professional quality work on their own don't just lack the resources but lack the time since they have real jobs they have to spend much of their time and and energy on.

Where did I say it's a trivial task? I simply made the point that if you've learned how to and can produce professional standard work, it doesn't alone give you merit, but is the minimum required for the title of "professional." A good analogy would be that more people can learn how to emulate art than those that can create it. And just being able to duplicate marketable games is enough for most game development companies. Its a business after all.

 

[DaveC]

Well Death maybe a little harsh.

I could see being banned instantly from here for asking about N64, Saturn, PSP, DS emulation on the Wiz or GP2X though h34r:

 

[Exophase]

No, I understand quite well the difference between porting and writing of an emulator. I simply use the terms a little interchangeably in this context because a hypothetical N64 emulator port for the wiz would require such heavy modification of how it performs it's emulation that the time and effort would be comparable to, or perhaps in the end would be the same as, writing it from scratch.

I don't think so. It's either possible and less work or it's not possible. Something impossible is of infinite difficulty and isn't even worth mentioning.

I agree. But come back to the context of our discussion and show me an N64 emulator that would be easy to port to the wiz that would work near fullspeed. You can't. And you're right, I didn't say it had to be a full speed emulator, but when someone asks "can N64 be emulated on the wiz?" they mean a full speed or near full speed performance. but what should change is that most people are under the misconception that the only kind of emulation is accurate hardware emulation which allows code to be run unchanged on hardware for which it wasn't written for. My message is that Dev's and home brewers should think outside that limited definition of emulation.

What you're describing is not emulation, it's really very simple, you don't get to redefine what it is. If someone has the drive to recreate an N64 game then all the more power to them but Wiz is hardly the first platform that could run such a thing but not emulate N64 well so I don't think you're going to convince anyone to suddenly do it now. Unless they're Nintendo and the platform is Nintendo DS.

Why is it arrogant or elitist? Do you think I consider myself one of those people who can make an N64 level game, because I certainly don't. Is it elitist or arrogant to say that most people can't be professional athletes, musicians, or for that matter doctors or lawyers? To think that anyone can learn how to be great at anything is naive and undermines the levels of talent that the people who can do possess.

No, I'm saying that someone with the required education and knows how to reproduce "professional standard" work is all that is necessary for the title of "professional" game designer or programmer. Its not easy to be a game developer, but its well within many people's capacity to pay for the required education to qualify for the title of "professional." Real talent is not required to receive the title of "professional," therefore the title of being a professional does not alone give you any merit.

Where did I say it's a trivial task? I simply made the point that if you've learned how to and can produce professional standard work, it doesn't alone give you merit, but is the minimum required for the title of "professional." A good analogy would be that more people can learn how to emulate art than those that can create it. And just being able to duplicate marketable games is enough for most game development companies. Its a business after all.

I'm not sure you understand that professional means you are paid for your work, not that you have received an education pertaining to it. A lot of professional games are bad, but also usually for reasons outside of the constituent developers not being capable of making "professional quality" games.

 

[b1ueskycomp1ex]

No, I understand quite well the difference between porting and writing of an emulator. I simply use the terms a little interchangeably in this context because a hypothetical N64 emulator port for the wiz would require such heavy modification of how it performs it's emulation that the time and effort would be comparable to, or perhaps in the end would be the same as, writing it from scratch.

I don't think so. It's either possible and less work or it's not possible. Something impossible is of infinite difficulty and isn't even worth mentioning.

I agree. But come back to the context of our discussion and show me an N64 emulator that would be easy to port to the wiz that would work near fullspeed. You can't. And you're right, I didn't say it had to be a full speed emulator, but when someone asks "can N64 be emulated on the wiz?" they mean a full speed or near full speed performance. but what should change is that most people are under the misconception that the only kind of emulation is accurate hardware emulation which allows code to be run unchanged on hardware for which it wasn't written for. My message is that Dev's and home brewers should think outside that limited definition of emulation.

What you're describing is not emulation, it's really very simple, you don't get to redefine what it is. If someone has the drive to recreate an N64 game then all the more power to them but Wiz is hardly the first platform that could run such a thing but not emulate N64 well so I don't think you're going to convince anyone to suddenly do it now. Unless they're Nintendo and the platform is Nintendo DS.

"]

Why is it arrogant or elitist? Do you think I consider myself one of those people who can make an N64 level game, because I certainly don't. Is it elitist or arrogant to say that most people can't be professional athletes, musicians, or for that matter doctors or lawyers? To think that anyone can learn how to be great at anything is naive and undermines the levels of talent that the people who can do possess.

No, I'm saying that someone with the required education and knows how to reproduce "professional standard" work is all that is necessary for the title of "professional" game designer or programmer. Its not easy to be a game developer, but its well within many people's capacity to pay for the required education to qualify for the title of "professional." Real talent is not required to receive the title of "professional," therefore the title of being a professional does not alone give you any merit.

Where did I say it's a trivial task? I simply made the point that if you've learned how to and can produce professional standard work, it doesn't alone give you merit, but is the minimum required for the title of "professional." A good analogy would be that more people can learn how to emulate art than those that can create it. And just being able to duplicate marketable games is enough for most game development companies. Its a business after all.

I'm not sure you understand that professional means you are paid for your work, not that you have received an education pertaining to it. A lot of professional games are bad, but also usually for reasons outside of the constituent developers not being capable of making "professional quality" games.[/quote]
Now settle down you two. I don't want to have to split you up. Head over to the wishes section for a list of some emulators I think would be appropriate for this little guy. =P

 

[darkriku]

If Someone is willing to spend there time to try to create this emulator i dont see why we should mind even if unplayable it can be Open Source and messed with i mean its there time and im for whoever wish's to try it

 

[lowtech]

I don't think so. It's either possible and less work or it's not possible. Something impossible is of infinite difficulty and isn't even worth mentioning.

I was speaking about a hypothetical n64 emulator and the ways in which one could achieve similar results. I never argued against the fact that N64 emulation isn't possible on the wiz, simply that emulation is not the only option. You're cynical and negative. And who are you to decide whats not worth being mentioned? It is my opinion and I don't intend any offense, but I believe you would be a moderator from hell, turning on-line discussion into a childish battlefield where only your opinions mattered and you banned people simply to protect the collective ego of your clique. Again, no offense intended, I just wish you could relax a little, life is short, cynicism and negativity is really a waste of your time and very detrimental. Allow room for other's ideas and grace us with your guidance and great experience. Its better to be proud of that than being proud of showing someone else how dumb they are. (but for some, that would be taking the fun out of on-line forums, and its really very sad)

And if something being considered impossible was good reason to never discuss or consider it, Physicists would never have gotten as far as they have in the study of our universe.

What you're describing is not emulation, it's really very simple, you don't get to redefine what it is. If someone has the drive to recreate an N64 game then all the more power to them but Wiz is hardly the first platform that could run such a thing but not emulate N64 well so I don't think you're going to convince anyone to suddenly do it now. Unless they're Nintendo and the platform is Nintendo DS.

Arguing for the sake of arguing again. "I don't think you're going to convince anyone to suddenly do it now," where in my posts do I try to convince someone to make an N64 emulator? You disagree with my opinions, I respect that, but don't refer/respond to disputes that aren't there. Shouldn't gp32x.de be a friendly place for discussions?

"What you're describing is not emulation." The emulation you're referring to is defined by a traditional point of view. And really very lazy. If all you're doing is emulating hardware so a game's code can be run unmodified, then yes, you'll always be limited by the host's resources. from a programming point of view, its silly to use 50 times the normal resources to perceptually reproduce visual and audio of a video game. But thats what happens with the traditional Method of emulation.

Why is it arrogant or elitist?

You said that most people will never obtain the "necessary skills" to do things well. If its your belief that most people are idiots and there are few that have some innate talent that allows them to become great programmers, game designers and etc, then I respect that, but the raw truth is that no, you're not so unique that only someone of your stock can be a great emulation programmer. We all can be taught, can be cultivated to achieve great things. My dispute is with your cynical view of the world, not you personally.

Now settle down you two. I don't want to have to split you up. Head over to the wishes section for a list of some emulators I think would be appropriate for this little guy. =P

Its good to see Exophase's biggest fan is still around and kicking. I'm an Exophase fan myself.

If Someone is willing to spend there time to try to create this emulator i dont see why we should mind even if unplayable it can be Open Source and messed with i mean its there time and im for whoever wish's to try it

Finally something positive. I completely agree. Theoretically, using an understanding of the N64's hardware and coding, one could use a game's code as a direct reference to create an incredibly accurate clone that would run on the Wiz. Perhaps the method could then be refined so that it can be automated for all N64 games. It would be an untraditional approach to emulation, the same idea behind CxBx. (yes, I know CxBx is not technically an emulator. That is exactly why CxBx works where a traditional hardware emulator would fail due to the lack of required system resources.)

Emulating hardware is the hard part, requiring the muscle. I simply suggest that another option is to take emulating hardware out the equation.

 

[Exophase]

Wow, you've totally misunderstood just about everything I've said, blown things way out of proportion, insulted me several times, and in spite of that are telling me to calm down. Nice. With fans like these who needs enemies...?

I've been an admin/moderator on several places and I would never ban someone because I disagreed with them. I have to wonder how can you say something like that and actually not intend offense. Appending "no offense" doesn't really license you to make these kinds of claims..

 

[Xenjoi]

Sorry lowtech, but it seems to me you are talking alot and trying to sound professional, but have nothing tangible to back it up. I will be the first to admit that i have just about nothing to contribute to this forum except some questions and experiences, but as a network tech., i have to at least have some programing knowledge for my job, and its clear to me you have none. your picking and choosing your words (or somewhat at least) carefully, but still are incapable of being coherent or factual. when someone tried to explain to you what might be a potential problem in your proposal, you kept broadening your explanations in hopes to redeem yourself but just dug a deeper hole. it DOES look as though you aren't entirely sure of the differences between a clone, a port and an emulator. i am not a person that makes it a point to put people out but you've taken this much farther then it needed to go simply because you don't want to look like your at all in the wrong. I have read posts where Exo. seems to be a bit tough on other posters but this kind of explains why that happens. in this case though (and all of his posts that i have come across as of late), he was more then polite even while you got more and more aggressive and offensive. for that, i think you owe him an apology. I think its great that you are in the community Lowtech, we need all the numbers we can get, but if you dont have anything REAL to contribute, dont argue or turn off the real devs. sit back, be quite, and observe until you can add real input or feedback on something you've tested please

 

[wizzy]

This would be awesome!

Far from real? There was not a PSX emulator for previous GP2X. But it didn't run very well though...

 

[HeWhoCorrupts]

Quoting arguments.... Is there no where safe from them!? Seriously whats next, logic arguments?

 

[b1ueskycomp1ex]

Quoting arguments.... Is there no where safe from them!? Seriously whats next, logic arguments?

I'll start this one off.

____________________________________
char boot;
int hat;

hat == boot; //HA! Prove it wrong.
____________________________________

 

[lowtech]

, he was more then polite even while you got more and more aggressive and offensive. for that, i think you owe him an apology. I think its great that you are in the community Lowtech, we need all the numbers we can get, but if you dont have anything REAL to contribute, dont argue or turn off the real devs. sit back, be quite, and observe until you can add real input or feedback on something you've tested please

I really didn't intend to offend anyone, but I can see what you mean, when I felt pushed, I pushed back a little too hard.

I'm just from the other camp on the N64 issue. By other camp I mean that I've noticed a very negative feeling toward N64 emulation as a whole. I don't know if its just the fact that it annoys some in forums or if they just hate the console all together because they have no feeling of nostalgia with it (ie, didn't grow up with it. same reason I have little interest for some old games/systems I've never used, so I understand that part of it, if thats the case.) That negative feeling really inhibits any kind of mature discussion of the topic.

Same story again and again, someone asks about it and people get upset. Maybe make a sticky about it, with some interesting things to read about it and when someone posts about it, drop in and say "hey, this has been discussed before, but if you're interested, head over to so-and-so sticky."

I know exactly what ports, emulators and clones are. I suggested a relevant thing and took a mature look into how someone could play an N64 game on the wiz. And thats exactly what I meant, to PLAY an N64 game, the game, not emulate hardware. Just as you can play teteris coded for nes (emulation) or play teteris coded for linux running on an arm processor (natively on a linux handheld), for a very simple example. Exophase himself picked up on my basic ideas when he pointed out that it would be a "huge undertaking to recreate a game in isolation," even though it seemed he just wanted to shoot me down, no matter what I had to say.

 

[b1ueskycomp1ex]

, he was more then polite even while you got more and more aggressive and offensive. for that, i think you owe him an apology. I think its great that you are in the community Lowtech, we need all the numbers we can get, but if you dont have anything REAL to contribute, dont argue or turn off the real devs. sit back, be quite, and observe until you can add real input or feedback on something you've tested please

I really didn't intend to offend anyone, but I can see what you mean, when I felt pushed, I pushed back a little too hard.

I'm just from the other camp on the N64 issue. By other camp I mean that I've noticed a very negative feeling toward N64 emulation as a whole. I don't know if its just the fact that it annoys some in forums or if they just hate the console all together because they have no feeling of nostalgia with it (ie, didn't grow up with it. same reason I have little interest for some old games/systems I've never used, so I understand that part of it, if thats the case.) That negative feeling really inhibits any kind of mature discussion of the topic.

Same story again and again, someone asks about it and people get upset. Maybe make a sticky about it, with some interesting things to read about it and when someone posts about it, drop in and say "hey, this has been discussed before, but if you're interested, head over to so-and-so sticky."

I know exactly what ports, emulators and clones are. I suggested a relevant thing and took a mature look into how someone could play an N64 game on the wiz. And thats exactly what I meant, to PLAY an N64 game, the game, not emulate hardware. Just as you can play teteris coded for nes (emulation) or play teteris coded for linux running on an arm processor (natively on a linux handheld"], for a very simple example. Exophase himself picked up on my basic ideas when he pointed out that it would be a "huge undertaking to recreate a game in isolation," even though it seemed he just wanted to shoot me down, no matter what I had to say.[/quote]Still, I'm sure we all fail to see where you're going with this, because:

1 - N64 emulation on the wiz, at least PLAYABLE emulation or any real MEANINGFUL emulation isn't going to happen.

2 - No one. NO ONE. would want to try to develop ANY n64 game for the wiz.

and 3 - You go disassemble an N64 game and recreate it for the wiz with it's controls, then come back and start a pointless arguement then, instead.

Seriously. Why is this thread still open? Asking for playable N64 on the wiz is just madness. MADNESS I SAY! It makes that request for using the wiz as a game controller in windows seem useful, by comparison.

 

[DaveC]

, for a very simple example. Exophase himself picked up on my basic ideas when he pointed out that it would be a "huge undertaking to recreate a game in isolation," even though it seemed he just wanted to shoot me down, no matter what I had to say.

Your post was completely out of line though. You seem to think of Exophase as some dope who just "Thinks negative" and "doesn't believe". You don't realise that this guy knows code and hardware. If he says it isn't possible on the Wiz then it isn't , period. Even I know it isn't possible and I am no coder.

As far as "camps" go there are only two. First are the ones that realise that it is not possible, the second the dreamers with no knowledge of the facts.

It has absolutely nothing to do with wanting it or nostalgia etc. The Wiz hardware just isn't up to the task. Just because you see the clock speed of the Wiz and the clock speed of a Pentium PC that can run it and think "well the Wiz is faster" so it should work doesn't make it so. You really need to learn about CPU architecture, clock speed means squat.

To even be arguing about this for 4 pages is retarded as it is so ridiculous. N64 emulation or ROM remakes? Come on please stop the madness.

You need to do a bit of research. You really don't know what you are talking about. Before flaming someone you really need to know facts, otherwise you look the fool.