New And Improved Unified Xgp Design Poll

[shinneri]

There's really no need for another GP2X, and that, I think, is what the XGP would become if it opted for the same resolution as the GP2X. Some apps would get ported, but most would write it off because they already have a GP2X.

I don't know if widescreen is ideal... I'd prefer 640x480, but I think it's better than just creating another GP2X (albeit a more powerful one, but that only matters if people take advantage of it, which depends on the support it receives...).

mini's another matter. Its selling point is power and small size. Other than this new Samsung SoC, I wouldn't really change anything about it.

 

[Epicenter]

Fully agreeing with DaveC on all the screen comments. Well put. JaqMs-- using 16:9 for web pages when the XGP would be a poor device at best for any serious web browsing use (without a touchscreen, some kind of decent text entry system .. PDAs are awful for web browsing, so is the PSP, for good reason. Right now, browsing the web on anything but a full PC usually is a cumbersome and irritating task.)

Shinneri- I can't say I fully agree, since the GP2X does what it does rather well, but it has major faults that GPH will probably never correct. I would fully understand if GP wanted to make a machine that did what the GP2X does, without the horrific stick and other hardware faults, as well as vastly superior performance. SNES emulation probably never runs at full speed on the GP2X, for example, and PSX emulation absolutely never will, so there is room for the XGP series to expand on what the GP2X is being used to do, but not fully succeeding at.

If GP does the XGP series right, I won't likely spend much time with my GP2X-- so I'd prefer it be able to do all the same things!

As for porting-- if the machines are that similar, it's not an issue of authors not giving the time of day to porting them. Odds are, they'll just run natively. Being another ARM platform, and probably linux-based, with a similar RAM situation and full compatibility for SDL and any non-MMSP2-specific ASM code, most programs should run on the XGP with just a simple recompile, which takes just minutes. There's really not much to worry about for the XGP having a good software library, it'll be as good as the GP2X's is.

 

[Shikaku]

My gosh did you butcher my sentences.

It's called point by point attack with me being lazy/being in a hurry in retyping what you said.

Ok, there is a reason that websites predominantly scroll vertically; because the horizantal aspect of websites are usually fully displayed on the screen. Do most websites scroll horizantally? No. Therefore, the widescreen can adequately display the full length of a site.

You just copied what I/DaveC said retard...

Then you attack my comment by saying that the GP2X/XGP is not a PMP, but simply a gaming machine.

Did I say the GP2X was a only a gaming machine? It can play movies and view pictures/text/websites too, and I actually ENJOY those features, but 16:9 resolution won't help anything at all except text readability, but WHO READS WEB PAGES ON A HANDHELD AGAIN?

Guess what, I programmed before. How about quoting the full sentence before rediculing my statements...

Sauce? Especially homebrew game sauce, I want to see your own homebrew games that you seem to worship.

And have YOU ever played Megazeux? I am one of the few people IN THE WORLD that knows and (sometimes) actively uses Megazeux. Therefore, you really don't know what they're talking about when they mentioned "dialog boxes".

I have not. However, I tend to avoid the make your own RPG circle with RPG makers mostly because they have a small circle of "games that own" and everything else being garbage whether or not it actually is, as if it almost never existed.

It's like websites like livejournal, except with horrible games along with the horrible communities.

Also I hate most RPGs, especially FF7. Avant Garde plot for the INSTANT CULT CLASSIC MAKER WIN.

I'm not arguing with you anymore, EVER. All you do is spout crap left and right, and I'm tired of it.

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: JaqMs.

 

[JaqMs]

I don't really care his empty arguments where he contradicts himself, but he f*cking dissed Megazeux without even TRYING it. I'm going to post his comments about it in the DigitalMZX forum, and show how much his assumptions are wrong.

And I better not get a ban threat again. I'm not the one calling people retards.

 

[Shikaku]

Did I?

I dissed Megazeux? Really? Where?

 

[JaqMs]

Calling it an "RPG maker". There's a thing called Wikipedia. Use it.

 

[Shikaku]

*Click* · Un-ignore JaqMs

Oh, it's a game-scripting language for a text based adventure with text based pictures. My apologies, but it still does fall under RPG under my definition, for the same reason the Legend of Zelda series does: ROLE PLAYING GAMES = ADVENTURES! However, the term "RPG Maker" was still a low blow for me to give, so let me be more general:

I tend to avoid game creation ultility communities because most people tend to be ungrateful gits that do not understand the fact that programming actually requires PROGRAMMING, which takes time and effort to do.

*also the "small circle of "games that own" and everything else being garbage whether or not it actually is, as if it almost never existed." usually still holds true*

So, unless you want to tell me what you program, I am going to "assume" this is what you work on if a "playful stab in the dark" generalization makes you burn with fury. I still haven't seen things you programmed either, and everytime you post I am going to ask "do you program?" out of sheer spite, yet also to remind you of the laurels you (might not) have as of right now.

 

[Exophase]

Some of my votes and why:

Screen size: 480x272 for both. There are some benefits for 320x240, but basically, I feel more pixels are better. Widescreen might not be very helpful for porting most PC applications but there is a lot of new content where it certainly doesn't hurt - for sidescrollers, horizontal shooters, and anything that has a lot of user interface, including shells. I agree that they're better for web browsers, and even if the popular opinion is that no one uses web browsers on these devices there's obviously enough of a demand for them that it matters. You know, there's a lot of web browsing you can do that doesn't involve a ton of user input. Like reading forums, for instance...

Of course this adds to the price, which is bad for the mini, but I agree with the sentiment that the resolution should be the same for both. If they're different then at best you'll probably see "widescreen extended" modes that add a little bit to the sides.

I think that the complaints are overstated. PSP uses 480x272 and I rarely, if ever, see anyone complain about it, even though primarily non-widescreen is used for homebrew. Sure, most emulators aren't widescreen, but on the other hand they're not 4:3 either, and no one seems to care about running their 256x224 NES/SNES emulators at 320x240. And GBA, which is just about the holy grail of portable emulation, works better on 480x272 (GBA's resolution is 240x160), IF the handheld can provide decent hardware accelerated bilinear filtering. Which is just a serious win in a lot of areas.

Everything else is/has been moving to widescreen, apparently it's the "future" (or maybe the present now?), both for games, TV/movies, and desktop stuff, so you'd figure people were serious about it.

Input: Analog for both. In retrospect I think a very good d-pad might be better, but I've seen so many awful d-pads lately that I'm losing hope in them, especially when done by a non-established company. Basically, the way I see it, a great analog stick will be good to great in 90% of games, and just bearable in the other 10%. A great dpad will be great in maybe 25% of the games, good in 50% of the games, and okay in the other 25%. In other words, it'll cut it for just about everything, but it'll rarely excel like an analog stick will in certain situations. That's why it might be better for a general purpose only-option. On the other hand, a crappy d-pad will make your life miserable, especially if it can't handle diagonal input at all like PSP's. Circular d-pads are more likely to handle diagonals well, but they tend to be less durable (the best ones I've used have broken on me a few times...)

Batteries: Li-on built in. I understand some people think rechargeable NiMH batteries are superior, but I don't really see any strong evidence there (but we'd need a comparison of the same device using both). No matter what rechargeable batteries are a hassle. Sure, not having a builtin rechargeable battery makes the base unit cost more, but not having it means you either have to buy rechargeables AND a charger, which likely WILL run you more than that cost would have if they're of any quality, or have to constantly buy one time batteries, which is infinitely less convenient and more expensive in the long run.

RAM: 128MB for normal, 64MB for mini.. gotta differentiate the two somehow. RAM is somewhat adaptable for at least some applications; 64MB is plenty for most (given the level of CPU power), so the extra RAM is good for scaling (running more stuff at the same time, dealing with larger things)... furthermore, since the platform has an MMU and Linux there's virtual memory, so requiring 128MB would at least not cut out mini users entirely. Yes, virtual memory can SOMETIMES make even a single program that needs all that RAM still useable, depending on various things!

Brightness/volume: Hardware. A dial for volume would be great. I miss dials. If not at least include easy to push buttons (urgh, not like PSP's please). Although IF buttons are used couldn't software work in conjunction with hardware?


Now, about the little side argument here... I'm the main developer of MZX (or at least have been for some years) and the one who ported it to PSP (although unreleased as of the moment), and yes, it does much better there than on GP2X. Of course a huge part of this is because PSP has very simple to use bilinear filtering. I don't know if GP2X does, but SDL sure isn't using it, yet is using hardware scaling. So I imagine if it has it it's not trivial to utilize. At 320x240 it, a 640x350 program, looks terrible without filtering. And yes, people have mentioned that text is hard to read on the very thread you source to saying they haven't (third post down), and much of those comments are about how to improve the scaling! But, even with bilinear filtering, text would still be kinda hard to read. When you DO have filtering the more resolution you have, the better, period. Aspect ratio might get messed up, but sometimes that's a loss that people are willing to take for more retained detail. Even if you're porting a 640x480 app (like JaqMs was saying) 480x272 is still superior to 320x240 in many cases if you have filtering. That's my opinion, anyway.

Shikaku, really, do you have to be so incredibly arrogant and disrespectful in your responses here? I can see JaqMs doesn't have a very good reputation here (I understand, we've had our dealings with him on our board too ;P) but does someone really have to have extensive programming experience to have a worthwhile opinion on the usefulness of a resolution/aspect ratio?

And geez, lay off MZX Yes you did insult it. No, I don't blame you for having zero interest in it. Yes it's a niche program, but that doesn't make it and programs like it irrelevant just because you don't like them. And it's not an RPG maker or an adventure game maker (text or otherwise), almost all genres of games have been made in it, with a pretty decent distribution amongst a few of them. There also happens to be a small but pretty dedicated and close knit community surrounding the program, which also didn't deserve your attack against them (before you say "where did I say that?" I'm referring to this: "except with horrible games along with the horrible communities."). I've been in communities like that and I've been in communities like this and neither deserve those kinds of generalizations off the bat from people who haven't experienced the particular community in question first hand.

Also, before you go slagging MZX's lame scripting language and making fun of its users, calling them non programmers, bear in mind that a lot of capable programmers got their start with it. Myself included.

Not to be too pissy about all this, but I've just about had it with all of the over-conceited programmers lurking on the internet who think they're just about the greatest thing ever, and if you respond to me like that I'm totally going to go at you without holding back >_>

 

[Lancer-X]

Well, it really depends on the application, but I've found that some 4:3 apps, including games, don't look too bad on a 16:9 display resized (altering the aspect ratio of the image, yes it does look a bit squashed, but it doesn't look too bad). Another option is to maintain the existing aspect ratio and resize to 362x272 or thereabouts, but I think it's actually less aesthetically pleasing than squashing the display. The other, and indisputably best alternative, is to rewrite the application in question to work with a 16:9 display. Like Exo mentioned, text viewers and web browsers would generally be automatic. For games, it really depends on the game. Some games may be able to work with the wider resolution by changing the screen area, moving status displays etc. (say, remove some of the vertical viewing range in Doukutsu Monogatari if it was ever ported to this).

But I don't really see why someone would have to be a programmer to recognise that.

 

[DawnOfTheRent]

I picked analogue for the XGP because it seems like the best way to emulate a mouse without a touch screen. And also, it might just be me (since the fist console I ever owned was a N64) but I just enjoy analogue sticks better.. Even when I'm emulating a NES.

I picked wide screen for both because I think the multiplayer games that use the same system are great. So I would want as much screen space as possible. I also have no problem tolerating black borders to fix the aspect ratio (and this could be cool, because whenever you bring up the menu it could only cover the borders, and leave the game screen showing, or certain bits of data could be displayed on the borders, like FPS, CPU clock, Ram usage,.. basically anything that a typical consumer would find useless, but would still use just because it made him/her look smart while playing games. ). And, while I don't know anything about programming graphics (yet ) I am curious, how hard would it be to port a 2D game? It seems like the main thing to re-draw would be the backgrounds.. but the sprites could be the same size, just with a bigger area to "roam" in.. I guess you would also have to tinker with anything that pertains to the borders in the code too, is that too much? (obviously it's more than you would have to do for a 3 x 4 screen, but since it would give the players more room to move around wouldn't it be worth it? Oh,.. actually this is only pertaining to a game with a fixed camera)

I chose AAs,.. which seem to be losing the battle of the polls so far. (but oh well, it's democracy) I really like AAs better because they're easier to come by. But I'm wondering,... why doesn't the GP2X have a clock (sorry if it does and I just haven't found it) does it have something to do with not having a constant supply of power? If that's the case then I would definitely prefer having an internal battery. (I doubt this is the reason because I think I've seen a camera with a clock that used AAs,.. but then it could have had another internal battery in it..)

Everything else seemed to be pretty much what the majority had picked. (so explaining my ideas in those areas seems kind of pointless)

Why do people say "This is splitting the community."? "Splitting" is such a harsh word. Obviously certain devolpers will decide to move to the XGP because it has more of what they like. And I don't mind paying another 250+ just to get it (I've only had my GP2X for a few weeks, and I'm already saying that..)

And, this might be the oddest question ever, but how good is the chance of Payback getting made for the XGP? Should I buy it soon for the GP2X, or later for the XGP? (or both, just to support Apex and their coolness)

 

[Lancer-X]

And, while I don't know anything about programming graphics (yet smile.gif ) I am curious, how hard would it be to port a 2D game? It seems like the main thing to re-draw would be the backgrounds.. but the sprites could be the same size, just with a bigger area to "roam" in.. I guess you would also have to tinker with anything that pertains to the borders in the code too, is that too much? (obviously it's more than you would have to do for a 3 x 4 screen, but since it would give the players more room to move around wouldn't it be worth it? Oh,.. actually this is only pertaining to a game with a fixed camera)

I figure that you would simply reduce the viewing area (you could increase the horizontal area instead, or do a blend of the two, it depends on the existing game). You shouldn't need to redraw any of the art, except for things that are intended to be displayed fullscreen.

The reason why I opted to reduce the horizontal viewing range is that some games may only store level screenblock data for the current viewing range, and increasing the range further horizontally might then require adding in the additional data. Easier just to reduce the viewing distance to compensate, but it would depend on the individual game.

I maintain my stance that none of this requires any degree of programming experience or knowledge.

 

[rei_yano]

<_< about widescreen. what applications that will be ported will actually utilize the widescreen? yeah Im sure once developers go over to xgp they will make new applications designed for widescreen.... that will take a while. I imagine a handheld where most of the time we are either looking at a squashed image or a lot of unused screen space. Im all for change here but only if it is a change that makes sense. I would hate if 50 percent of the applications I used had to either be squashed or they didnt use the whole screen. I would want to maintain the original image so ofc I wont be using 100 percent of the screen which makes no sense. I guess I would have to buy a gp2x??? oh wait I forgot the gp2x wont be as robust as the xgp. damn I better just buy the xgp and deal with the fact that I have tons of unused space on the screen.

I dont know about the whole analog / dpad issue... I guess it really comes down to which will be more effective. the analog controller really isnt ment for anything old. its ment for modern games. n64 and beyond. do we really think that the xgp will have that many titles that take advantage of the analog stick? unfortunately gamepark has built a reputation for emulation and we cannot deny that. at the most optimistic I can imagine that perhaps a whole 100 maybe even 200 titles will take advantage of the analog. those values are pretty optimistic I think. when it comes to titles that will be making more use of a dpad WITH emulation included we can say without doubt that there are thousands.

whats so important about analog? this whole obsession with "change" and "the future" I mean goddamn lets just be realistic here. do you really think that an analog stick and a widescreen display are going to rush in all these developers to create thousands of games and apps just for these features? all the gp2x apps and games could be easily ported to the xgp line if they both supported the same controls and aspect ratios. without much effort hundreds of things ported to xgp. not to mention that if you make something for the xgpmini or xgp then it probably could be easily ported between each other. makes it alot easier on a dev team plus they have the benefit of coding for two platforms almost at the same time. this is made specifically for the community to develop for it so why not make it easier on our precious dev community?

after hearing about the standard lithium ion battery they have planned I suppose Im not too concerned over the battery. lithium ion could be just fine for it.

thats my two cents.

 

[Lancer-X]

It all depends on whether you want the XGP to be a groundbreaking new homebrew platform, or just the GP2X with a bit more power, I guess.

 

[rei_yano]

"groundbreaking" Im sorry but its more likely to become vaporware from people not supporting it. why fix something that isnt broken? its a setup we have used in the past. hopefully they make it easier on everybody and make the transition alot simpler.

 

[NoidZ]

The XGP should have a 15" HD screen and Intell Pentium 4 3.4 Dual Core Processor, 512MB nVidia graphics card, Blu-Ray, Mouse and Keyboard support and running on 1 1500 mAh AA battery for about 12 hours of gameplay, 16 Hours of movie playback and 24 hours of music playback.

It would be great if it could be portable too.

 

[Orkie]

"groundbreaking" Im sorry but its more likely to become vaporware from people not supporting it. why fix something that isnt broken? its a setup we have used in the past. hopefully they make it easier on everybody and make the transition alot simpler.

How many developers have you talked to who have said they aren't in the least bit interested in the XGPs? I have talked to many about them (including myself ) and most people seem to want to give them a go.

 

[JaqMs]

"groundbreaking" Im sorry but its more likely to become vaporware from people not supporting it. why fix something that isnt broken? its a setup we have used in the past. hopefully they make it easier on everybody and make the transition alot simpler.

You're forgetting the fact that Gamepark is comprised of more than 90% of the original company. They have a better chance of making things happen. For example, I remember reading the "Game Park" wikipedia article and how it said Atari was about to produce 1 million GP32's to be distributed in the U.S. (though the only downside is it never happened, for some unknown reason). The XGP's have huge potential.

 

[C B Felterbush]

There are many things that I would like to play on the XGP, however the most important to me and to the success of the machine are the emulators and homebrew. I think in the way of sales the emulation aspect is of the most import. If a system can emulate the SNES, and GBA at full speed it would be indeed the king of the hill. Right now the GP2X can’t do this. I think if a system was deigned with this in mind it would be able to excel in many other applications. I want to play Fire Emblem 4,5 and Tales of Phantasia at full speed. If this was possible I would sell them in my store, and I would burn through them. That I guarantee, it would be more successful than any foreign 1 or 2 commercial game PMP that had a couple good homebrew apps.

 

[Lancer-X]

There are many things that I would like to play on the XGP, however the most important to me and to the success of the machine are the emulators and homebrew. I think in the way of sales the emulation aspect is of the most import. If a system can emulate the SNES, and GBA at full speed it would be indeed the king of the hill. Right now the GP2X can’t do this. I think if a system was deigned with this in mind it would be able to excel in many other applications. I want to play Fire Emblem 4,5 and Tales of Phantasia at full speed. If this was possible I would sell them in my store, and I would burn through them. That I guarantee, it would be more successful than any foreign 1 or 2 commercial game PMP that had a couple good homebrew apps.

What do you mean, can't do it? Can you give any specific technical reason why the GP2X can't emulate the GBA? No. The only reason it can't do it is because nobody's written a proper emulator for the GBA on the GP2X yet.

There are some similarly shallow-minded people who didn't think the GBA could be emulated fullspeed on the PSP until Exo did his thing. I say it CAN be emulated, it's just that nobody's done it yet.

 

[Epicenter]

It all depends on whether you want the XGP to be a groundbreaking new homebrew platform, or just the GP2X with a bit more power, I guess.

Should they opt for the S3C2460, it'll be enormously more powerful than the GP2X. A 266 MHz CPU clock is just the start, you should be able to overclock to well beyond 300 MHz out of the box. A full FPU means two things:
- Massive speed boosts for Float-intensive programs, especially 3D games like Quake, Doom, etc.
- If floating point and Integer code are used proportionally, it will work like having 2 parallel processors working on the same program .. because essentially it will. Used correctly, you could see performance gains approaching 100% at the same clockrate in a lot of tasks!
- The AFP9 unit is also a vector processor, which will help provide huge performance boosts for things like the GTE in PSX4ALL, compounded with the huge CPU speed boost.
- The 2D/3D accelerator will provide major gains to 2D emulators, enormous gains to 3D emulators, and allow a whole new generation of 2D homebrew, with vastly superior graphical intensity capabilities than anything the GP2X can run. No longer will the machine grind to a halt when you throw a thousand sprites and alpha blending at it, either.
- The entire memory subsystem will be dramatically faster, due to the use of MobileDDR instead of slower SDRAM (effective clockrate of 266 MHz) and if Samsung is making the SoC, we can rest assured SD DMA won't be broken like in MagicEyes chipsets, which means streaming data off the SD card in realtime without interrupting the CPU's work.

Anyone viewing such a machine as being just a slightly tweaked and updated GP2X would be missing the mark.

What do you mean, can't do it? Can you give any specific technical reason why the GP2X can't emulate the GBA? No. The only reason it can't do it is because nobody's written a proper emulator for the GBA on the GP2X yet.

It can be emulated just fine on the GP2X, I just have a feeling that it won't be quite as snappy for the more graphically-intensive titles due to the complexity of the 2D subsystem-- it's similar to the SNES and look at the trouble emulator authors have had with that. The existing emulators are also rather slow and clunky C, not tiny, fast optimized ARM9 ASM. So odds are you'll still be looking at a good bit of overclocking even with the ARM7 CPU code running natively. The XGP series would have the extra kick of 2D acceleration for handling all those pesky things like transparencies.