My ideas for changes to the way apps work.

[craigix]

I have decided to write my own menu and to start from scratch with my own ideas about how this should all work.


...


I'd just like a shot at presenting you with my vision in a few months time, and I think you will like it. I shall be quietly working on it in the background (when I have time of course, so it won't be rushed).

The unfortunate thing is that, in a few months, the rest of the community will have already developed, tested, and distributed a solution more or less exactly like what you're trying to accomplish. The PNDStore and milkshake's alternate store site have already got a massive head start.


When you finally do present your solution, it had better be worlds better than what the community has already moved to, or else you're going to find yourself against another brick wall. That's exactly what happened with your appstore: you went into seclusion to come up with your own idea. Meanwhile, the community got together to discuss what was wrong, what needed to be fixed, and a lot of solutions were presented, rejected, tweaked, and accepted. Out came Milkshake's web site, and eventually the PNDStore.


By trying to be your own island, you are being left in the dust by community driven development. That is what is demonizing you. It is not that you have ideas that some people may not agree with, but that you have ideas that a lot of people agree with but you are rejecting their help and compromises and insisting that everything be done exactly your way.


Take a look at EDs proposal. It was well accepted because it actually recognized the development that the community had already done, and suggested ways to steer that development towards something even better.

I don't see any of these brick walls you speak of, Pandora apps is the only place with every app, and it always will have them all, because it is professionally maintained, it is also immensely popular in terms of downloads.


When I open it up to anyone to upload I firmly believe it will be popular, and it will be tied in to my Pandora menu system too.


It is the sort of negativity you present which stifles true innovation 'oh, don't both, someone else has already done it, you could NEVER do it better'.


This sort of thinking does not advance software, innovation or the user experience at all, if I had listened to all the nay sayers the Pandora would not exist, you can always improve things - a man's reach should exceed his grasp.

 

[EvilDragon]

As for PNDStore, does it provide a separation between front-end and back-end? E.g. do we have a cmdline tool somewhat similar to apt-get which we can wrap in a GUI?

Tempel mentioned he can easily include that into PNDStore. So any frontend (minimenu, a nice touch-UI, etc.) could use it to grab app lists, install, update, etc.

 

[milkshake]

Of course the FRONTEND should be improved.


But we prepared the specs and the BACKEND already to make everything Craig is wishing here possible


All that's needed is polishing the frontend.


Still, if he wants to code his own frontend, why not? Choice is good and if it works fine, I'm more than happy to include it into the OS.


Doesn't mean the community can't continue with its own frontends


I will be open to anything, as usual

EvilDragon craig isnt just coding his ownfront end, he is writing everything from scratch.


hes not using the repo spec or any of the current and upcoming terminal apps as a backend.

 

[EvilDragon]

Of course the FRONTEND should be improved.


But we prepared the specs and the BACKEND already to make everything Craig is wishing here possible


All that's needed is polishing the frontend.


Still, if he wants to code his own frontend, why not? Choice is good and if it works fine, I'm more than happy to include it into the OS.


Doesn't mean the community can't continue with its own frontends


I will be open to anything, as usual

EvilDragon craig isnt just coding his ownfront end, he is writing everything from scratch.


hes not using the repo spec or any of the current and upcoming terminal apps as a backend.

Well, he can do so. If it works well, we can include it as well.


I wouldn't ditch our system here though. Choice is good, and who cares how the PNDs get onto the SD Card?

 

[milkshake]

Well, he can do so. If it works well, we can include it as well.


I wouldn't ditch our system here though. Choice is good, and who cares how the PNDs get onto the SD Card?

This is true

 

[sebt3]

Pandora apps is the only place with every app, and it always will have them all, because it is professionally maintained, it is also immensely popular in terms of downloads.

yeah the kind of professional that publish illegal content on your website on your behalf. (this)


The kind of professional that publish broken PNDs. (like this, there are more examples)


The kind of professional that dont follow update and let the stuff getting old on your website while it's updated elsewhere.


I love this kind of professionalism...

 

[Da Lee]

i dont understand why poeple start hate`n, when somebody wants to make a own system??? if craig make a new one and u already can download it...the persons who complaned bout this, gonna be first downloaders,

Pandora apps is the only place with every app, and it always will have them all, because it is professionally maintained, it is also immensely popular in terms of downloads.

yeah the kind of professional that publish illegal content on your website on your behalf. (this)


The kind of professional that publish broken PNDs. (like this, there are more examples)


The kind of professional that dont follow update and let the stuff getting old on your website while it's updated elsewhere.


I love this kind of professionalism...

 

[WizardStan]

It is the sort of negativity you present which stifles true innovation 'oh, don't both, someone else has already done it, you could NEVER do it better'.

I never said don't try, I never said you couldn't, I said that others in the community have a head start on you filled with features that both users and developers have been asking for for months with new features being added at steady paces, and that if you want your solution to compete it had better be damned good.


You call what I said negative, but rejecting the work others have done and saying you can do better by starting from scratch is hardly a positive community attitude. Even the Pandora started off with "how can we improve upon this thing we already have".

I don't see any of these brick walls you speak of

Really? You don't see anyone besides myself suggesting that you take a step back and consider what you're doing? Not a single person has suggested that you need to add some feature to your App Store that you've vehemently said you will not? Not a single developer has said they won't use your App Store because of these missing features? You cannot possibly be this naive. Again I say, if whatever you come up with is not worlds better than what the community as a whole is already developing, what the community as a whole will no doubt already be using in the months it will take you to develop your solution, then you will meet with resistance in trying to get people to adopt it.


Or you can work with the community, as has been suggested time and again, implement the repository spec, even make suggestions to improve that spec, so that when you do release your system we can be free to choose whichever system we want, safe in the knowledge that they will all just sort of work together, with no need to worry about where the app came from.

 

[sebt3]

i dont understand why poeple start hate`n, when somebody wants to make a own system??? if craig make a new one and u already can download it...the persons who complaned bout this, gonna be first downloaders,

I think there is a little misunderstanding : I'm supportive of craigx effort (from this very thread, I've also helped him to get his dev setup in an other thread) :

Even if I would have preferedto see you join the current efforts on the matter I still welcome to see you starting to join the software effort for your toy


More choice the better

Yet I've spotted these issues with apps.o.o more than once yet nothing have changed. Each time Craigix will talk about his minion I'll spot these issues until fixed.


If I hated Craigix I would have just send a mail to Pop Cap games, they are _very_ concervative on their copyright....

 

[Caine]

It is the sort of negativity you present which stifles true innovation 'oh, don't both, someone else has already done it, you could NEVER do it better'.

I don't think people are claiming that you could NEVER do it any better. The gist of the discussion is that people offer you to collaborate and join effort to advance and improve the software already being developed. You can bring your own insights, requirements and demands to the table that will improve the software. Time is limited, only by working together we can truly advance the state of the art.


That said, starting from scratch with as little influence from the outside is often a good way to define a vision or convey a concept. However, I think that many fear that you will shun collaboration altogether as you sometimes seem to dismiss existing solutions out of hand without clearly conveying which of your requirements aren't met.

 

[Da Lee]

yeah...i think i understood that in a negativ way...was just construct critique from u...huge wafe against craigs adventure...should be support...too bad..some react like...this is a communnity..and nobody should try a difrent way,.in the end the comunity can still say i dont like it..so why no give a try for a more userfriendly system,i like all who make something for the pandora project, doesnt matter who, why. self ore not..

i dont understand why poeple start hate`n, when somebody wants to make a own system??? if craig make a new one and u already can download it...the persons who complaned bout this, gonna be first downloaders,

I think there is a little misunderstanding : I'm supportive of craigx effort (from this very thread, I've also helped him to get his dev setup in an other thread) :

Even if I would have preferedto see you join the current efforts on the matter I still welcome to see you starting to join the software effort for your toy


More choice the better

Yet I've spotted these issues with apps.o.o more than once yet nothing have changed. Each time Craigix will talk about his minion I'll spot these issues until fixed.


If I hated Craigix I would have just send a mail to Pop Cap games, they are _very_ concervative on their copyright....

 

[Linopoly]

I have decided to write my own menu and to start from scratch with my own ideas about how this should all work.


Several people have told this will demonise me. I would hope not. This is an open system.

I think the main issue is not about openness, but fragmentation. By creating another choice, you end up making things less friendly for newbies, because before they even start, they have to choose which menu they want to use. I think you should ask which of your ideas is so irreconcilable with minimenu that they couldn't be implemented in there instead of creating another menu from scratch. Maybe you have a good answer for that question, but you should have a concrete answer before taking on the task of attending to all the fine, boring, details required to make a polished UI. If you were to modify an existing project instead, you'd avoid the commitment of having to do all of the other boring stuff required, while still getting your ideas out there.

 

[craigix]

I have decided to write my own menu and to start from scratch with my own ideas about how this should all work.


Several people have told this will demonise me. I would hope not. This is an open system.

I think the main issue is not about openness, but fragmentation. By creating another choice, you end up making things less friendly for newbies, because before they even start, they have to choose which menu they want to use. I think you should ask which of your ideas is so irreconcilable with minimenu that they couldn't be implemented in there instead of creating another menu from scratch. Maybe you have a good answer for that question, but you should have a concrete answer before taking on the task of attending to all the fine, boring, details required to make a polished UI. If you were to modify an existing project instead, you'd avoid the commitment of having to do all of the other boring stuff required, while still getting your ideas out there.

Because 1) Jeff does not have the time and 2) what I'm planning is so radical and different from what has been set up it has to be done from scratch.


I'm quietly confident than what I've got up my sleeve will be as big a jump as the GP2X to Pandora design, in terms of user friendliness.


A lot of people are still thinking with their dev hats on, you have to stand back and pretend your maximum computer experience comes from using your iPhone, then look at the Pandora again.

 

[WizardStan]

in the end the comunity can still say i dont like it..so why no give a try for a more userfriendly system

Because Craig isn't just some user with an idea, where if it fails there is no love lost. Craig is basically the voice of OpenPandora. He doesn't just have an idea, he wants his idea to become the official way of doing it. If I come up with an idea and no one uses it, big deal, that just means I, personally, have failed. If Craig develops the official app store further and no one uses it, what does that say of the Pandora team? Good or bad, whatever Craig comes up with will be where new users are directed automatically, either by the official website, or the manual, or a link on the desktop. His store will be what users see, many of whom won't even realize there are alternate choices, not without visiting the forum and being told about alternative solutions. If his solution is not at least comparable to the alternatives, new users that don't know better will be missing out, and may even cause the Pandora to be looked upon disfavourably. Less disfavourably than it is now, I'm sure, but still not as good as it could be.


Or he could come up with something amazing that blows everything that everyone else on the forum has suggested out of the water.

 

[Da Lee]

i understand what u try to say....but what if hes ideas gonna be mindblowing? i hope for that...i dont think he will make THE huge change without to ceck some reviews from the comu.IF u look in the past ,.he make deciion about premium pan.it was too something, that poeple didnt like(understandeble), but for the project was def sumthing positiv(nobody wants the project stops)i trust him on this one too...

in the end the comunity can still say i dont like it..so why no give a try for a more userfriendly system

Because Craig isn't just some user with an idea, where if it fails there is no love lost. Craig is basically the voice of OpenPandora. He doesn't just have an idea, he wants his idea to become the official way of doing it. If I come up with an idea and no one uses it, big deal, that just means I, personally, have failed. If Craig develops the official app store further and no one uses it, what does that say of the Pandora team? Good or bad, whatever Craig comes up with will be where new users are directed automatically, either by the official website, or the manual, or a link on the desktop. His store will be what users see, many of whom won't even realize there are alternate choices, not without visiting the forum and being told about alternative solutions. If his solution is not at least comparable to the alternatives, new users that don't know better will be missing out, and may even cause the Pandora to be looked upon disfavourably. Less disfavourably than it is now, I'm sure, but still not as good as it could be.


Or he could come up with something amazing that blows everything that everyone else on the forum has suggested out of the water.

 

[Pickle]

Now there are secret ideas....?

 

[Scntrblob]

I see the way this goes. Craig goes the way he has blamed GPH to go.

 

[hakmanplayer]

i choose to believe that something good will come. Pandoras and iControlPads are reality.


And we still have the community trying to improve Pandora in all aspects. I don't think this is vanishing.


For myself, the tv-out cable, a new kernel and suspend to ram will definitely put Pandora to an upper level. I see great things in the near future. Ease of use is OK, but far from being the biggest pandora issue.

Contrary, I think ease of use is the biggest issue here.

 

[milkshake]

Contrary, I think ease of use is the biggest issue here.

the Pandora IS easy to use, if you mean how to get emulators to work etc that is not really related to ease of use as they work in an almost identical fashion on a pc, plus Craig doesn't write the emulators the community do so how does Craig make them easy to use?

 

[hakmanplayer]

Contrary, I think ease of use is the biggest issue here.

we think different. And I also think that majority of current pandora users don't have much trouble downloading apps and making them work. Craig has a point in making it applefanboy friendly if he intends to expand Pandora niche.

I strongly disagree and i think there are many that do. Maybe not in your circle.


Forget about grudgingly placing labels such as the name 'applefanboy' to try to get your opinion favored.


This topic is far deeper than simple name calling and labeling people who do not think like you.