My ideas for changes to the way apps work.

[bzar]

I think there is one thing that could be done here to help a little. Make "documentation" from the PNDs easier and faster to open. Arora is horrible for this purpose; it takes ages to load. In minimenu, a PND documentation viewer should be built-in.

Take into account that mounting the PND takes some time too. As the documentation is not strictly defined (it can include any files from the PND apart from the one marked as the documentation file), there's no way to create a documentation cache. This in turn makes viewing the documentation akin to starting a PND application, because the PND must be mounted before the documentation can be opened with the appointed application for that file type.


I recently prototyped a built-in documentation viewer for a panorama UI, but I quickly noticed that managing the PND mounting became less than elegant when there was no process to do the cleanup after it was finished. Also the mounting part added some time to the documentation loading. This is one case which dflemstr's proposed PND mounting system would be beneficial (no, I'm not demanding or proposing we switch to it, but wouldn't be against something more like it being discussed or considered) by always providing the documentation in the file system, ready to be read with any application without managing the mounting.

 

[Emnasut]

How about in MiniMenu we have an extra tab called "New Applications" or something like that. There we show all other existing programs by simply downloading all existing PNDs stripped of the binaries (so it would only be the xml I guess) and the category set to "not installed".


Then the start script which is in every PND will be substituted by a script which calls the "download and install" program. The process generating the PND-stubs could be automated. This way a user could really browse all existing apps exactly like he's browsing his "installed" programs, can read the description and install it.


Now I don't know how large all existing PND-XMLs, including icons and descriptions, are but as it's mostly text I guess it should compress nicely.


Now this is only for Minimenu but it would at least integrate seamlessly into the GUI and make use of all existing technologies. The only thing needed would be the script/gui for installing the app.

 

[slaeshjag]

Take into account that mounting the PND takes some time too. As the documentation is not strictly defined (it can include any files from the PND apart from the one marked as the documentation file), there's no way to create a documentation cache.

You're talking about HTML-documentation? Isn't it possible to just crawl it for any linked files? Sounds like a 10 minutes bash job to me.

 

[milkshake]

You're talking about HTML-documentation? Isn't it possible to just crawl it for any linked files? Sounds like a 10 minutes bash job to me.

the problem with that is, the documentation could be in many files but only the index would be specified in the PXML, do you suggest the html page specified in the URL also be parsed too for further internal links? this would really start to take a while, so whilst your idea is sane in theory, in reality its not that simple.

 

[slaeshjag]

You're talking about HTML-documentation? Isn't it possible to just crawl it for any linked files? Sounds like a 10 minutes bash job to me.

the problem with that is, the documentation could be in many files but only the index would be specified in the PXML, do you suggest the html page specified in the URL also be parsed too for further internal links? this would really start to take a while, so whilst your idea is sane in theory, in reality its not that simple.

<long post deleted>


Well, I guess it would be kinda slow if you got a lot of PNDs.

 

[mcobit]

I like how this thread is now about how to improve the repospec

 

[slaeshjag]

Hey, why can't we cache the documentation on the repo? If there's no internet connection, use mounting the PND as a fallback (i suppose it need some sort of daemon checking this in the background to avoid the latency of failing a connection)

 

[craigix]

I have decided to write my own menu and to start from scratch with my own ideas about how this should all work.


Several people have told this will demonise me. I would hope not. This is an open system.


This isn't an attack in any way on all the hard work done so far, it's just going to be me trying to make an interface for


absolute new users who just want to Pandora to work 'as if by magic', I will only be dealing with customers who are not devs and


who have emailed me about problems they have had. It will be tested only on people with little to no computer experience outside


of an iphone.


Everyone is free to keep using the current solutions, I encourage constant development in all areas all the time.


My system won't be forced on anyone, the Pandora is as open as it can be, forever.


I'd just like a shot at presenting you with my vision in a few months time, and I think you will like it. I shall be quietly working on it in the background (when I have time of course, so it won't be rushed).


Remember, my goal, above all, is ease of use.

 

[sebt3]

I have decided to write my own menu and to start from scratch with my own ideas about how this should all work.

Even if I would have preferedto see you join the current efforts on the matter I still welcome to see you starting to join the software effort for your toy


More choice the better

 

[milkshake]

Remember, my goal, above all, is ease of use.

I do belive this is everyones goal


good luck.

 

[SNESFAN]

I have decided to write my own menu and to start from scratch with my own ideas about how this should all work.


Several people have told this will demonise me. I would hope not. This is an open system.


This isn't an attack in any way on all the hard work done so far, it's just going to be me trying to make an interface for


absolute new users who just want to Pandora to work 'as if by magic', I will only be dealing with customers who are not devs and


who have emailed me about problems they have had. It will be tested only on people with little to no computer experience outside


of an iphone.


Everyone is free to keep using the current solutions, I encourage constant development in all areas all the time.


My system won't be forced on anyone, the Pandora is as open as it can be, forever.


I'd just like a shot at presenting you with my vision in a few months time, and I think you will like it. I shall be quietly working on it in the background (when I have time of course, so it won't be rushed).


Remember, my goal, above all, is ease of use.

smashing idea, can't wait to try it out!

 

[lordbobjones]

From the business perspective side of this, I have to respect Craig's position and strong feelings on the issue of ease of use. One thing that he has that few have ( respect to ED, Jeff and others...sorry if I missed someone) is the aggravation of dealing with users complains and issues. If you have ever been in business, the user complaints are what drive you and cause you to do the things you do. For those who have issues with Craig's hard stance, consider his experience and do not discount it. He is taking that position due to experience and listening to people's problems.


I look forward to seeing all the ideas and solutions that come out. Multiple solutions can only make us better.

 

[centus]

I have decided to write my own menu and to start from scratch with my own ideas about how this should all work.


....


Remember, my goal, above all, is ease of use.

I love how this came right after a post about community and team work...


Good luck Craig, I do hope you succeed, however, I never expected the Pandora to be an iPandora, I would have bought an iPod if I did...

 

[bzar]

Best of luck in your endeavor, Craig. We all want the best possible UI for our pandoras, and personally I'm not concerned with who makes it. Diversity is the power that comes with openness, and that diversity is best maintained by doing something if you believe you could do better. The best ideas then get distilled through projects and more projects, and we end up with better software all the time. Keep us in the loop of what you're doing, I'm sure many of us are interested in what you'll come up with.

 

[milkshake]

From the business perspective side of this, I have to respect Craig's position and strong feelings on the issue of ease of use. One thing that he has that few have ( respect to ED, Jeff and others...sorry if I missed someone) is the aggravation of dealing with users complains and issues. If you have ever been in business, the user complaints are what drive you and cause you to do the things you do. For those who have issues with Craig's hard stance, consider his experience and do not discount it. He is taking that position due to experience and listening to people's problems.


I look forward to seeing all the ideas and solutions that come out. Multiple solutions can only make us better.

No one is denying that something needed to be done, but unbiknown to craig the community was already working on a simple robust solution - which is almost identicle to what craig wants anyway, it would have been better to collaberate but its up to craig what he does.


at the end of the day we all want the same thing which is a good thing that we all know what needs to be done, its just ashame we are not working on it together as a community.


it is a comminty driven console after all we must not lose sight of that.

 

[EvilDragon]

Of course the FRONTEND should be improved.


But we prepared the specs and the BACKEND already to make everything Craig is wishing here possible


All that's needed is polishing the frontend.


Still, if he wants to code his own frontend, why not? Choice is good and if it works fine, I'm more than happy to include it into the OS.


Doesn't mean the community can't continue with its own frontends


I will be open to anything, as usual

 

[WizardStan]

I have decided to write my own menu and to start from scratch with my own ideas about how this should all work.


...


I'd just like a shot at presenting you with my vision in a few months time, and I think you will like it. I shall be quietly working on it in the background (when I have time of course, so it won't be rushed).

The unfortunate thing is that, in a few months, the rest of the community will have already developed, tested, and distributed a solution more or less exactly like what you're trying to accomplish. The PNDStore and milkshake's alternate store site have already got a massive head start.


When you finally do present your solution, it had better be worlds better than what the community has already moved to, or else you're going to find yourself against another brick wall. That's exactly what happened with your appstore: you went into seclusion to come up with your own idea. Meanwhile, the community got together to discuss what was wrong, what needed to be fixed, and a lot of solutions were presented, rejected, tweaked, and accepted. Out came Milkshake's web site, and eventually the PNDStore.


By trying to be your own island, you are being left in the dust by community driven development. That is what is demonizing you. It is not that you have ideas that some people may not agree with, but that you have ideas that a lot of people agree with but you are rejecting their help and compromises and insisting that everything be done exactly your way.


Take a look at EDs proposal. It was well accepted because it actually recognized the development that the community had already done, and suggested ways to steer that development towards something even better.

 

[meandu229]

Choice is always good, Good luck Craig I know ill mostly use xfce but I like simple so I can show people without them trying to use it for 2 minutes and giving up, and I never quite liked Minimenu, not sure why just didnt, maybe I should give it another go

 

[Cas]

Hi


"Minimenu can then put a little 'update available' icon on the icon for the app. Because the process is so simple


and the Pandora and PandoraApps only have to look at file names it will be as close to instant as you can get.


The user can decide if they want to update it from there."


Just an aside :-


What if you do not put your Pandora online like myself, very very rarely do I go online with mine.

 

[Caine]

I think that Craig has the same goals as everyone else here and will very likely end up duplicating a large part of the effort. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Competition can drive innovation.


I'm curious to the outcome Craig but I hope that solutions can converge in the end, especially with regard to the protocols involved. Anyway, good luck with your project. I would love to see intermediate results, but naturally that's up to you.


As for PNDStore, does it provide a separation between front-end and back-end? E.g. do we have a cmdline tool somewhat similar to apt-get which we can wrap in a GUI?