Missing Emulators

[1magus]

Dreamcast, DS, PSP and PS2 seem to be missing too.

Cmon I was talking about consoles that are realistic to emulate.

Who says the PSP is unrealistic?

Well I dunno, I'm not a programmer but with the speed of the PSP (333 Mhz) and the speed of the Pandora (600-800 Mhz?) wouldn't they need to have similar CPUs to work with fullspeed emulation?

Woo! I got me one of those pyramid thingies going on here. The Emulation is realistic but playability may well be not.
I have no idea if any of the systems I mentioned have any exotic hardware that would complicate emulation but I guess all COULD be emulated for academic study (or pleasure) albeit too slow to be of use to the likes of us.

I know MHZ is not the best measure of things but lets just pretend the PSP is a 300mhz x86 and the Pandora is a 500-550 x86 do u really think 500 is 7x faster than 300 lol?

 

[Exophase]

How come there is only one closed source emulator for 3D0? I mean it runs on old ARM isint it possible to emulate?

It's because there isn't a lot of interest that FreeDO has been able to basically hold a monopoly on 3DO information necessary to develop an emulator. Unlike almost every other emulated platform there's no (as far as I'm aware) known way to circumvent 3DO's system protection, and I guess no one feels like reverse engineering the BIOS. I think even FreeDO is at least partially implemented as high level emulation.

3DO is actually really more of a software platform/OS than a hardware one, but in practice I think all the 3DO consoles used the same components. So the HLE approach has merit, but it's actually a lot more time consuming than LLE. XBox and PSP emulation both take this approach; PSP emulation has only very gradually progressed (DS emulation outpaced it years ago) and XBox emulation has only barely gotten off the ground. Likewise, WINE uses similar techniques and has taken years to really get things good enough. All of these platforms have way more demand than 3DO. N64 has popularized HLE but the HLE involved is really only limited to code on its vector coprocessor, so it's not as grueling.

FrreDO had access to documentation early on. Some of that documentation can be found today, but this is several years later. With FreeDO being good enough for most I guess no one cared to reproduce the huge amount of work. It didn't help that one of FreeDO's developers has been stringing people along for years by announcing release dates for varios ports that sounded too good to be true and eventually for when the source would be made open. Needless to say, he has failed to deliver on any of these things.

 

[BackAssward]

I know MHZ is not the best measure of things but lets just pretend the PSP is a 300mhz x86 and the Pandora is a 500-550 x86 do u really think 500 is 7x faster than 300 lol?

See, that's the whole point. They *aren't* the same processor, so a MHz comparison is useless. You're example is exactly why it's a bad idea to get into it unless you want a whole new pain in the ass to contend with.

Edit: Anyway, at least read the link I provided.
Pandora-PSP

 

[Exophase]

I wish the "7x rule" would die.

If you're going to talk about PSP emulation use 222MHz as a baseline, since most games do run at that.

But I still find the prospect unlikely, unless a lot of games really under-utilize the CPU or spend a huge percentage of time in system calls and make very sparse use of the VFPU.

 

[1magus]

I wish the "7x rule" would die.

If you're going to talk about PSP emulation use 222MHz as a baseline, since most games do run at that.

But I still find the prospect unlikely, unless a lot of games really under-utilize the CPU or spend a huge percentage of time in system calls and make very sparse use of the VFPU.

Most 3D intensive games released after the 2nd Siphon Filter game uses 333

 

[1magus]

How come there is only one closed source emulator for 3D0? I mean it runs on old ARM isint it possible to emulate?

It's because there isn't a lot of interest that FreeDO has been able to basically hold a monopoly on 3DO information necessary to develop an emulator. Unlike almost every other emulated platform there's no (as far as I'm aware) known way to circumvent 3DO's system protection, and I guess no one feels like reverse engineering the BIOS. I think even FreeDO is at least partially implemented as high level emulation.

3DO is actually really more of a software platform/OS than a hardware one, but in practice I think all the 3DO consoles used the same components. So the HLE approach has merit, but it's actually a lot more time consuming than LLE. XBox and PSP emulation both take this approach; PSP emulation has only very gradually progressed (DS emulation outpaced it years ago) and XBox emulation has only barely gotten off the ground. Likewise, WINE uses similar techniques and has taken years to really get things good enough. All of these platforms have way more demand than 3DO. N64 has popularized HLE but the HLE involved is really only limited to code on its vector coprocessor, so it's not as grueling.

FrreDO had access to documentation early on. Some of that documentation can be found today, but this is several years later. With FreeDO being good enough for most I guess no one cared to reproduce the huge amount of work. It didn't help that one of FreeDO's developers has been stringing people along for years by announcing release dates for varios ports that sounded too good to be true and eventually for when the source would be made open. Needless to say, he has failed to deliver on any of these things.

Are you saying the DS can out emulate the PSP?

 

[quadomatic]

The DS may be possible, right? I remember it was mentioned before...

 

[hlidegp2x]

Are you saying the DS can out emulate the PSP?

no you're totally miss the point of his post. He's just saying DS emulation was faster to get than PSP emulation because DS emulation is probably using an LLE approach instead of the HLE approach used for PSP emulation. Remember PSP and DS were competitors for the same console generation (not sure they were released the same year though)

 

[1magus]

Are you saying the DS can out emulate the PSP?

no you're totally miss the point of his post. He's just saying DS emulation was faster to get than PSP emulation because DS emulation is probably using an LLE approach instead of the HLE approach used for PSP emulation. Remember PSP and DS were competitors for the same console generation (not sure they were released the same year though)

Good because no matter what MHZ doesent matter talk people throw at me I KNOW FOR A FACT the PSPs CPU is faster. (And yes I know the main reason the PSPs graphics are nicer because it has a dedicated GPU and the DS does not)

 

[quadomatic]

Good because no matter what MHZ doesent matter talk people throw at me I KNOW FOR A FACT the PSPs CPU is faster. (And yes I know the main reason the PSPs graphics are nicer because it has a dedicated GPU and the DS does not)

This was incredibly difficult to decipher. In the future, please use proper spelling and punctuation. Here's how that should have read:

Good, because no matter what, MHZ doesn't matter (omit "talk people throw at me"). I know for a fact that the PSPs CPU is faster. (And yes, I know the main reason the PSP's graphics are nicer is because the PSP has a dedicated GPU, and the DS does not)

And if you were really thinking, you wouldn't have been trying to inform hlide. As one of the developers for psx4all, he's a bit more informed than the rest of us (yourself included).

 

[1magus]

Good because no matter what MHZ doesent matter talk people throw at me I KNOW FOR A FACT the PSPs CPU is faster. (And yes I know the main reason the PSPs graphics are nicer because it has a dedicated GPU and the DS does not)

This was incredibly difficult to decipher. In the future, please use proper spelling and punctuation. Here's how that should have read:

Good, because no matter what, MHZ doesn't matter (omit "talk people throw at me"). I know for a fact that the PSPs CPU is faster. (And yes, I know the main reason the PSP's graphics are nicer is because the PSP has a dedicated GPU, and the DS does not)

And if you were really thinking, you wouldn't have been trying to inform hlide. As one of the developers for psx4all, he's a bit more informed than the rest of us (yourself included).

Not trying to inform anyone basically a crack at the DS.

 

[Exophase]

Good because no matter what MHZ doesent matter talk people throw at me I KNOW FOR A FACT the PSPs CPU is faster. (And yes I know the main reason the PSPs graphics are nicer because it has a dedicated GPU and the DS does not)

DS does have dedicated 3D acceleration hardware, in fact even has some things in hardware that PSP doesn't like geometry based clipping and edge anti-aliasing.

 

[1magus]

Good because no matter what MHZ doesent matter talk people throw at me I KNOW FOR A FACT the PSPs CPU is faster. (And yes I know the main reason the PSPs graphics are nicer because it has a dedicated GPU and the DS does not)

DS does have dedicated 3D acceleration hardware, in fact even has some things in hardware that PSP doesn't like geometry based clipping and edge anti-aliasing.

But it is built inside the CPU like a system on a chip and is very low grade. The PSP has a separate chip for 3D. And the DS may have geometry clipping and better AA support but it still looks more ugly than N64 games which is just sad. I suppose it could be a resolution problem but I like to think its due to "tiny weenie eye strain-o-vision" of 256x192 resolution. Sorry I just don't really like the DS or Nintendo very much for that matter, I'm a 3D artist and the more gaming graphics rank up in demand the more work I will get in the future (no work yet just indie projects but still ). I kind of doubt most Nintendo DS projects require multiple 3D artist if any at all. As for Nintendo there casual gaming crusade kind of lost me there respect, from a business standpoint it made since to do what they did for the DS and Wii when it comes to software since the N64 and Gamecube were Hardcore games and did not sell as well as Sony but still most games on the DS and Wii are crap.

 

[Pleng]

Dreamcast, DS, PSP and PS2 seem to be missing too.

Cmon I was talking about consoles that are realistic to emulate.

There IS a dreamcast emulator out there somewhere. Wouldn't expect a release any time soon though.

 

[Exophase]

But it is built inside the CPU like a system on a chip and is very low grade. The PSP has a separate chip for 3D.

I don't know if you're right or not regarding PSP, but having 3D on a separate chip is not the least bit desirable if given the option.. It uses more area, power, and is often constrained by weaker memory interfaces that are more narrow and higher latency. 3D is part of an integrated SoC in pretty much every modern portable design, with all of the SGX solutions being quite superior to PSP.

And it may have geometry clipping and better AA support but it still looks more ugly than N64 games which is just sad. I suppose it could be a resolution problem but I like to think its due to "tiny weenie eye strain-o-vision" of 256x192 resolution.

That's somewhat a matter of opinion; for instance, SM64DS has more geometry than the original, despite having tighter absolute polygon limits than on the N64 and double the possible framerate.

DS has its own strengths and weakness. Its edge-marking and cel-shading hardware can give a pretty good cartoon-like look and its dedicated 2D hardware can be used in conjunction with the 3D to do largely 2D games with a few very detailed 3D models (like in New Super Mario Bros). Compared to the N64 it doesn't have the same crippling texture memory limitations, although it does lack bilinear filtering, multi-texturing, and the sophisticated combine modes.

256x192 is pretty low, but for the screen size it isn't that awful. It's only somewhat worse than the 320x240 you'd usually get from N64 games, minus what a typical TV from then would chop off. The second screen also helps un-clutter the space you have available.

 

[1magus]

Dreamcast, DS, PSP and PS2 seem to be missing too.

Cmon I was talking about consoles that are realistic to emulate.

There IS a dreamcast emulator out there somewhere. Wouldn't expect a release any time soon though.

I'm curious does the fact that the Dreamcast use a PowerVR chip and the Pandora uses one contribute to the ability to emulate on the Pandora, or has the PowerVR changed too much from that old chip to matter?

 

[Namo]

Dreamcast, DS, PSP and PS2 seem to be missing too.

Cmon I was talking about consoles that are realistic to emulate.

Check yourself- there are plenty of videos out there running a Dreamcast emulator.

As for the PS2 and PSP... The PSP thing seems plausible, the PS2, almost plausible.

I mean, there are working Playstation Emulators out for the Wii. After that shocker, I believed pretty much anything is possible. Case in point: The Pandora. The thing's like a dream come true!
andora2ut4:
:rolleyes:

 

[1magus]

Dreamcast, DS, PSP and PS2 seem to be missing too.

Cmon I was talking about consoles that are realistic to emulate.

Check yourself- there are plenty of videos out there running a Dreamcast emulator.

As for the PS2 and PSP... The PSP thing seems plausible, the PS2, almost plausible.

I mean, there are working Playstation Emulators out for the Wii. After that shocker, I believed pretty much anything is possible. Case in point: The Pandora. The thing's like a dream come true!
andora2ut4:
:rolleyes:

How is a playstation one emulator for the Wii a shocker? They got emulators working on the PSP, ds, iPhone etc..... I don't get it
I kind of doubt PS2 full speed emulation will be working on the Pandora umm ever I mean we have 3/4th speed on PCs but not full compatibility still. Dreamcast sure I was saying the PS2 was not realistic.

 

[dyslexic]

Ok why not make new list here.

I start please continue with the missing ones and make one nice complete list here.
If i am wrong please feel free to correct me.
The names i gave here are just from the top of my head and are not single systems only.I also have no idea what system uses what emulator so i leave that for the people who know the complete.

Mame Multiple arcade: working
Mess Multiple computers emulation: ? I hope it is being ported.
Nintendo Gamboy: working
Nintendo Gamboy color: working
Nintendo advance: WIP
Nintendo DS: ?
Nintendo Nes: working
Nintendo Snes: WIP PandaSNES
Nintendo 64: working Mupen64plus
Nintendo Game cube: Possible?
Nintendo wii: not possible
Sega master system: working Psms
Sega Genesis: working Picodrive
Sega Saturn: ?
Sega Dreamcast: ?
Atari Jaguar: ?
MSX: ?
Neo Geo portable: ?
Wonderswan: ?
Dosbox: working
PS1: ?
PS2: possible?
PS3: Not possible
psp: WIP
Xbox: possible?
Xbox 360: not possible
Atari ST: working Hatari
ZX xpectrum: working Fuse
Amiga: working UAE4ALL
CBM 64: working ? VICE i hope or MESS

Well i leave it so far please make it a complete one.

 

[paulguy]

PS1 on the Wii isn't too shocking. Think of the computers we were emulating PS1 on just a few years ago, and it doesn't seem too unlikely.

PS2 does run reasonably well on the really high end modern computers. I've played PS2 games comfortably before on an emulator, full speed most of the time. But that has nothing to do with the pandora. I have no hard evidence or theory to describe why PS2 games won't run on the pandora, but it just won't. Take everyone's word for it that it just won't work. And it's really not a big deal; there are many other emulated systems and native games to play.

EDIT: Instead of keeping information in the thread, I recommend people just update it in the wiki. Threads will always get lost. :/