Microsoft/Android/iOS Debate (Split from Cotton Candy topic)

[WizardStan]

But who is to say its broken? thats objectionable unless it truely does something it isnt ment to or visa versa.

See, you're getting into the "'I like it when my microwave shocks me' is an opinion" argument. I'm not going down that path again. If you don't think it is reasonable for someone to say "a microwave that shocks me is a broken microwave" as a general truism then there is literally no way we can resolve this debate.


(a shocking microwave being just a stand in for any number of things which could be applied to operating system, as the debate holds. I'm not actually talking literally about a microwave. I'm sorry if you don't think I need to say this but I've been down that path before, too, and I'm not doing it this time either.)

 

[Prometheus]

(eg. install Debian without X-Windows for my arcade cab)

Not quite one for this thread, but: Pictures of cabinet, please!

To be honest the cab itself looks pretty rubbish but it's the software setup and small hardware mods that make it interesting to me: Here's a small video of my son paying on it http://youtu.be/N7UdItx3M9A


There are others on there but they're before I installed the PC inside and sorted out advancemenu.


(I do love it though)

Thanks for showing that. Love it.

 

[McLovin]

linux isn't hard to use, but can be hard or, depending on hardware, impossible to initially setup. That's a huge difference.


I'm used to it, I like it, but I couldn't care less if other people use or like it. What I dislike is bashing.

 

[Cloudef]

"Unix is basically a simple operating system, but you have to be a genius to understand the simplicity."


All software suck, some just suck less, and some are used to do things different/harder way period.

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Bash is fun ^^.

 

[dreamer]

the MSDN library existed even before windows had a tcp/ip stack.... It wasnt a website at this time, just 4/5 cdrom in the visualstudio box. And yes that does mean that visualstudio come with more space for documentation than for binary installation... So dont come to tell us that MS dont give docs

Ah, so you needed to buy VisualStudie in order to get documentation on your operating system?


See that is completely useless for me.


Other than that I prefer to actually own my computer, instead of bosically 'leasing' it from some company. However, I got this laptop with a Vista license, which I never used (took about 5 minutes before I installed some linux-distribution on it). I wonder if I could use it to install 7 on that spare partition .. hmmm.

 

[Batou456]

A debate on GUI interface design?  Okay, I'll weigh in.


Windows


Since Windows 95 Microsoft has followed a rather consistent interface layout.  Like GUI interface designs developed in the 80s, Windows gives you the ability to create folder and place icons within folders on a background.  They've also set things up with specific present icons/links so as to more easily access common things.


What made Windows 95 special was the introduction of the task bar.  As far as I can tell the X server didn't have a taskbar implementation before this, which like mouse aiming with Quake was one of those massive steps forward that was just so intuitive at the time you didn't pay much attention to it.  


Before the introduction of the taskbar there was nothing to minimize windows to and maximize them from.  This in turn meant if you wanted to have more then one application on the screen that you had to manage the various overlapping windows with little more then the ability to collapse them to bars to help you.  Windows 7 still has the best taskbar implementation thanks to its smart clustering with previews, which avoids wasting a lot of screen space while allowing to user to be able to easily identify and access the particular application instance they want.


Window's only weaknesses as a multitasking environment revolves around its lack of a integrated Pager, and its kernel and associated OS stack not being the best on the market for it.  The former problem can be solved with freeware F/OSS program WindowsPager.


Windows GUI design, since Windows 95, has placed a quick access menu and panel on the left side of their bar.  In the most recent implementation with Windows 7 the quick access menu , when properly configured, allows you access to all the administrative and file access locations and applications you want with a single mouse over and click.  Windows 7 does represent a reversion in the applications menu, which no longer cascades, and still is not designed to fully accommodate efforts at keeping it properly organized.


On the right end of the bar you've had the Windows equivalent of bar widgets, but abuse of this feature by various software vendors has rightly led to it being hidden to avoid wasting bar space and the introduction of Gadgets placed on the desktop.


Macintosh GUI


The Macintosh GUI has remained stuck in the late 70s era of GUI interface design, despite bolting on newer POSIX bits.  I've yet to meet an average user that comprehends that the upper bar is a contextual menu still designed to accommodate a one-button mouse, despite even Apple having started to realize that using a two button mouse and using contextual menus is a massive step forwards from that slow and primitive 70s era approach.  It has the added complication that closing a window doesn't close a program that the average user doesn't appreciate is going on in my experience.


Beyond this the only thing exposed to the user that doesn't already know the particulars and tricks of OS X, is the “dock.”  Now the dock is basically what happens when somebody decides they like a quick access panel so much that they refuse to use anything else.  The reason not to do this is that you can only display a very limited number of applications on this panel, and then you need to figure out that it's time to go to Finder or the actual search button.  In my experience with school children, they didn't recognize either, without prompting.  Using this quick access menu panel as some crude approximation of a task bar really doesn't help matters, and the nature of the implementation puts this solidly on the level of Kiosk interface.


iOS


iOS is literally an overgrown Kiosk interface that doesn't even pretend to be designed for mulitasking, enough said.

 

[Prometheus]

Just one thing: Mac OS X has had contextual menus since its introduction. It's perhaps not entirely obvious, however - you hold CTRL and then click.


Android has that problem with not actually quitting programs, too. It's hugely annoying, and it's worse there because you need to navigate to some well-hidden menu in order to actually quit things. People will say that you don't need to quit them because it will automatically be done for you when it needs to be, but I still found it disorientating and weird, myself.

 

[WizardStan]

Especially for things like Foursquare. Just recently installed it. I went to check in somewhere and the GPS kicked in... and waited... and waited... oh wait, I'm inside. Durp. Guess I'll check in later. *close*. Why is the GPS still trying to connect?


Had to kill the Foursquare service to get it to stop. I can only imagine what other apps I thought I had closed are still doing things in the background.

 

[Batou456]

Just one thing: Mac OS X has had contextual menus since its introduction. It's perhaps not entirely obvious, however - you hold CTRL and then click.

And Command-Q will force quit.

The thing is it's the relatively uncommon user that even recognizes the basic key combos listed everywhere, let alone the unlabeled ones, and Macintosh's target audience isn't really the power user crowd. Not to mention if you start going there Linux DEs start to simply dominate as you can custom script key combos, and associated scripts. None of which has that much to do with multitasking, versus the quick access to desired functionality problem.

 

[Prometheus]

And Command-Q will force quit.

Command and Q isn't force quit (who told you that? :blink: ) - that's regular quitting, just as CTRL and Q is on other platforms.


Force quitting is a bugbear of mine on Mac OS X because, whilst it doesn't come up much (I've seen it maybe, eh, I'd guess four times at the most since I started using it the better part of a decade ago), the key-combination for it is obscure, stupid, and unintuitive. Try as I might, I can never remember what it is - although that is perhaps also a testament to how rarely it's needed (but it is still a stupid combo - that's about all I *can* remember of it). :lol:

and Macintosh's target audience isn't really the power user crowd.

I guess I must be a rare one. :lol:

 

[WizardStan]

(but it is still a stupid combo - that's about all I *can* remember of it). :lol:

option-shift-command-escape, held for three seconds.


They really don't want you to accidentally press it.

 

[Prometheus]

Thanks Stan. I'll still never remember it, though. :lol:

 

[skeezix]

I love the "OSX just works" crowd -- congrats, you bought right into the mantra that Sales and Marketing wanted you to


The truth is,. OSX can just work (as long as you woerk the way they want you to), but its just as fallable as any other OS. At least it has a little more consistency.... but even then, some apps exit when their last window closes, some don't (right in the OS itself, not even talking third party apps.) Some still have brushed metal, some don't. We've got a single menu bar, and thats just lovely when you've got that 2000x1500 rez display, and got to mouse up 20" or so from that tlitle window down there, alll the way up. Foolishness.


Theres a lot to like about OSX, but 'just works' is not really true. You want this or that video card? Sorry, you can't have. You want this or that USB device... sorry, no cigar.


Heck, when they first shipped Spotlight or whatever, the OS-wide search tool, it didn't work on _text files_ (.txt and related.) True story. Boggles the mind


OSX has a lot to like, but don't put your blinders on and thinks its nirvana.. its not. Windows is not. Linux is not. None of them are -- we must keep challenhign them all, so they can all improve.


PErsonally, I do think 'droid and iOS and related will come more to the consumer forfront, but theres a lot needed before they can do that; most tabs don't have a real USB port (and if so, usually not a full size one, and usually not more than 1) -- USB ports mean hubs and keyboards and stuff when you want them, instead of custom dock connectors like the Asus Transformer. You want to plug your camera in and copy pics over... sorry, to bad. You want to resize and catalogue pics.. sorry, too bad unless you use a coloud service. But bitching pain to do so when you've got no connectivity, and only 8 or 16GB of space. My little 5 year old digital standard-def video camera has 16GB of space on it and that can fill up quick with a day at a wedding... no way to get it onto a tab, no way to transcode it to various formats, probabyl can't even watch it on the tab without transcoding.


So day to day tasks can't be done on tabgs yet; they're great for consuming, which is what Apple and so on would like -- let you stream video from some service, paying every month for it (and paying your ISP for data plans and so on.)


But content creation, organization, etc, is not happening yet, not for awhile.


Once they add storage, ports, etc.. well, tablets are just netbooks/notebooks without keyboards, right? Little smaller and lighter?


(Wait, what, most tablets are 10" displays, not 7" which is a great in-between size. 10" isn't all that portable or small anymore..)


So, yeah, PCs always get smaller and better; tablets and smart-this-or-that are just the next normal expected level of PC, minus keyboards, right? No big deal. The OS is the big dfeal, touchscreen and not being MS .. no more paying huge licensing fees to MS or Apple for their OS! Big win! Too bad about your privacy


So yeah, right now big purchase of tablets and definately cutting into notebook revenue, but not replacingt too amny notebooks, since you can't do half of what you want on them.


In a few years, the whole tech landscape will change and the eclogy reworked so that it does work, with more powerful tabs, more ports, more wireless, more and better apps (most 'droid apps are just garbage, we all know it.. its also a good time to come in and crush crappy apps with better ones!), and then tabs will really cut into the notebook sales more.


But it'll be awhile before you can plug a keyboard in and start runnig good development; or recording music .. Ableton Live anyone? Need serious IO performance there .. or photo management, normal stuff.


Good times to be in tech.. but isn't it always? This is why we all love it .. lots of change all the time, but really.. not much change at all, the same old cyclical shift, back and forth between thin and thick and heavy clients


jeff-up-all-night-again


WizStan -- good call on the backlash; very astute!

 

[craigix]

What you seem to be ignoring are the facts - people are moving to Android and iOS at a rate never seen since the late 80's move to Windows.


This, I think, is because they do 'just work' for the man in the street.


I've watched my gran use iOS/Android phones and understand them. Something I've never seen before with a Windows computer.


You cannot ignore that these new OS/GUIs are a revolution for people who just want things to work.


I hate saying it, but it's true here, take your dev hat off, try to see things from the POV of people who don't give a shit about what's happening under the bonnet.

 

[Miner49er]

I've watched my gran use iOS/Android phones and understand them. Something I've never seen before with a Windows computer.

Well, whilst my Dad digs Ubuntu he can't get to grips with Android and switches back to his dumb-phone, despite being marvelled at the GPS software on his Android phone.


I think it's because he has fat fingers though. I also, find touch-screens incredibly annoying and miss proper-keys for things like text-message.


I agree though, for most users an phone-like interface for desktop machines would suffice. I would hate it though.

 

[WizardStan]

Who were you responding to? Doesn't look like anyone argued that iOS and Android aren't gaining in popularity; the argument against your claim is that it is gaining in popularity with the crowd of people who are not desktop users. It is pulling in a user base that didn't exist before. You're equating rapid growth on one side with necessary loss on the opposing side, and that isn't always true, and there is nothing to indicate it is true here. "Dev hat" has absolutely nothing to do with anything that anyone has said.

 

[Prometheus]

Whilst I have a decent enough level of understanding of technology, I must say that I find Android 3.x to be ridiculously counterintuitive (not to mention incredibly sluggish on a 1.1GHz machine).


I still don't know why I should equate an angry alien face with spam e-mail, or why up is actually down! It would certainly be nice if the browser 1: didn't crash all the time, 2: remembered the tabs you had open, because it loses them all when it crashes, and 3: didn't have an input lag of up to a minute or so when typing things in the browser...


Is there a text-editor available yet?


Google's web apps mostly seem to have great interfaces, but my experience so far has been that Android does not - different designers, perhaps? That said, I have no use for mobile telephones, so perhaps the telephone versions are better than this?


I guess it's just not my preference, though - it seems to be made for consuming rather than creating, and that's not suited to me.

 

[Exophase]

Who were you responding to? Doesn't look like anyone argued that iOS and Android aren't gaining in popularity; the argument against your claim is that it is gaining in popularity with the crowd of people who are not desktop users. It is pulling in a user base that didn't exist before. You're equating rapid growth on one side with necessary loss on the opposing side, and that isn't always true, and there is nothing to indicate it is true here. "Dev hat" has absolutely nothing to do with anything that anyone has said.

Exactly. Although I don't think they're strictly gaining in popularity with non-desktop users, I think a lot of people are using both.


If everyone on mainstream x86 devices are "moving" to Android or iOS ones then I don't know how it is that Intel has posted overall increased revenue and AMD has posted increased market volume. Further continues to sell strongly in desktops and laptops, including the new "ultrabook" class, latter is selling well in netbooks and gaining ground in gaming laptops. What neither are doing is making any ground with Android based devices.


Even when markets do shrink due to opposing forces that doesn't mean it's a trend that'll continue until their extinction. At the very least phones and tablets are not ideal for most office workers, nor are they especially cost effective. Devices like Asus's Transformer closes the gap a bit but while popular its sales are still not exactly disruptive and it still has its own shortcomings, not to mention an even higher price.


Meanwhile, the big desktop and laptop x86 CPUs are getting more and more consolidated and integrated so it's not like they're sitting still. When it comes down to it, there are always going to be applications where a large user-base will prefer a box that's designed for several dozen to a few hundred watt power dissipation and plugs into a large monitor and keyboard. Likewise for laptops and their applications. Phones, tablets, netbooks, laptops, and desktops are always going to be in fairly distinct thermal classes which will limit what you can do with them even when they're plugged into large peripherals and using wall power.