Making the pandora successor "green"?

[Ziz]

Fact is: Someday the fossil oil is exhausted or at least very very expensive

 We will be long dead before the petrol is exhausted.

Read carefully. I differentiate the "exhausted". Of course it will not be empty. However, it WILL be more expensive. It started being more expensive years ago! Someday it is just too expensive to be used for "cheap" products like consumer electronics. And this day will not be in 100 years.

The green movement is just about putting taxes on stuff and not about providing better/cheaper solutions. Theres no current replacement for fossil fuels that's cheap, scalable, efficient and making economic sense. Everyone who says otherwise is a quack.

Yes. There is nothing cheaper yet (!), but better: of course. It depends on your definition of "good" and "bad" to tell, which is better.You think economical, I think ecological.

 

[comradekingu]

Recycling plastic bags works because a huge amount of polyethene is used in the manufacture of plastic bags every year- and the energy and oil saved by not making more of the stuff is likewise huge.

The environmental impact of a few thousand cases' worth of plastic over a few years is tiny in comparison.

I agree that sustainability is good - but the only way to make a noticeable difference is to target large groups and quantities

In some countries plastic bags are banned, and that works just fine. Beside the point though. I take a middle-way here and say that the difference lies mainly in the added saleability of the device. A little nod might cheer someone up, whereas i don't think for example a smile will fix their real-life issues, but then again that is a problem you tackle elsewhere, granted.

 

[Klumpen]

You think economical, I think ecological.

That's why so many people think, that most more ecologically-friendly stuff is plain stupid.

Bear in mind, that ekianjo does not care for atomic waste too.

Recycling plastic bags works because a huge amount of polyethene is used in the manufacture of plastic bags every year- and the energy and oil saved by not making more of the stuff is likewise huge.

The environmental impact of a few thousand cases' worth of plastic over a few years is tiny in comparison.

I agree that sustainability is good - but the only way to make a noticeable difference is to target large groups and quantities

In some countries plastic bags are banned, and that works just fine. [...]

I am using the good old cloth bags, which can bear a lot more weight without being damaged anyway, have less painful handles and can always be recycled in form of (sometimes quite expensive) patchwork clothing or the like, but some of my bags are 30 years old already and still intact.

A padded linen bag for Pandora2 would be something, you do not see for other gadgets. ^^

I think, that we are just creating the image, that we Gs are all Bio/Eco-Freaks, but (sadly) that is not really the case.

Most people everywhere simply do not care.

 

[comradekingu]

With a bag its optional. Ac adapter, if applicable, should also be optional. Drives the cost down, and pollutes less.

 

[Ziz]

However, the fair mouse is out of bioplastic, too, and quite stable.


But aside: I use linen bag as much as possible, too. Especially being able to wash it is awesome!

 

[Ziz]

ED, if you are really interested, the fair mouse uses this manufactor as it seems: http://www.tecnaro.de/deutsch/avsk.htm

More details you get in this document: https://www.nager-it.de/static/pdf/lieferkette.pdf

 

[_wb_]

I prefer a case that lasts as long as possible - durability is even better than using some recycled/recyclable material that starts to crack or disintegrate after a year, which means you have to get a new case, which means CO2 emissions because of shipping, overhead of recycling (you can never recycle 100% of anything, and it takes energy to recycle), overhead of producing the new case, and so on.

If you want to be green, it's better to focus on the structural and continuous sources of waste, not the rare and one-time ones. Insulate your house, change your mode of transportation, use reusable stuff instead of disposable stuff, invest in renewable energy sources (e.g. put solar panels on your roof), try to force companies to change their policies away from financial profit-maximization and towards maximizing the social and ecological "profit". Those things have a way larger impact than avoiding plastic objects.

In my opinion, producing plastics is a very good use of fossil oil. It's much, much better than just burning it.

 

[Klumpen]

I prefer a case that lasts as long as possible - durability is even better than using some recycled/recyclable material

Carbon-fiber-reinforced polymer then.

 

[Binky]

I prefer a case that lasts as long as possible - durability is even better than using some recycled/recyclable material that starts to crack or disintegrate after a year, which means you have to get a new case, which means CO2 emissions because of shipping, overhead of recycling (you can never recycle 100% of anything, and it takes energy to recycle), overhead of producing the new case, and so on.

If you want to be green, it's better to focus on the structural and continuous sources of waste, not the rare and one-time ones. Insulate your house, change your mode of transportation, use reusable stuff instead of disposable stuff, invest in renewable energy sources (e.g. put solar panels on your roof), try to force companies to change their policies away from financial profit-maximization and towards maximizing the social and ecological "profit". Those things have a way larger impact than avoiding plastic objects.

In my opinion, producing plastics is a very good use of fossil oil. It's much, much better than just burning it.

Absolutely.

Tweaking the design of an obscure piece of electronics will have so little effect that its not really worth the effort (compared to learning how to drive more efficiently, or turning your heating down)

 

[comradekingu]

Why make that comparison? Its a means onto itself, the problem arises once you create it, and doesn't go away because you call it obscure.

If it had something to do with the topic at hand, your argument is that of implying electricity doesn't come from hydropower and that one does not drive electric. To the contrary, it still doesn't have anything to do with the production of consumer goods. In the sense of deciding compromises the scale is lopsided.

 

[Binky]

Why make that comparison? Its a means onto itself, the problem arises once you create it, and doesn't go away because you call it obscure.

If it had something to do with the topic at hand, your argument is that of implying electricity doesn't come from hydropower and that one does not drive electric. To the contrary, it still doesn't have anything to do with the production of consumer goods. In the sense of deciding compromises the scale is lopsided.

eh?

I genuinely don't understand what you are trying to say :unsure:

 

[comradekingu]

I mean its an issue in itself, insofar as how it relates to other things, sure, but thats not how you decide on the matter.

Lets say that a conscious effort was made to get only non-recyclable materials. Because that is what it would be, given we are now aware of the issue.

What efforts would have to be put into "tweaking the design" in retrospect? Its not a foresight at this point, because we already know the direction of how sales are dictated.

Recently outlawed: lead soldering, brominated flame retardants, incandescent bulbs, restrictions on power coefficient on power supplies bigger than 25W, cellphone charging through anything but miniusb. Those are the ones I'm aware of off the top of my head.

Bisphenol A in food plastic items.

Packaging, wrapping, marking. Its pennies in the sea compared to having to redo it or having it barred from sale in the EU.

 

[bzar]

Not sure if I read and understood this correctly, but are you suggesting basing the design and materials on trying to predict and preempt future legislation?

 

[comradekingu]

At least that is a consideration to make. And its alot more relevant than the generational, things dont matter view.

The packaging on both my pandoras have been great, very minimal cardboard box. First one was just a regular cardboard box, doubling as the shipment container from what i remember, which personally i dont have a problem with. If you buy it on the internets you arent buying the case so much. Amazon has a minimal packaging thing going, and they are very much still in business. No extra plastic, except for on the screen. I dont think there was any wrapping. Ac/Dc came in a cardboard box too.

A marking to the case of what its made of would also be one of those almost free of cost things to do.

 

[HelenF]

I think recycling is mainly important for disposable items. For things that are meant to last a long time, it's not worth making them recycled/recyclable if that brings a compromise on the quality or durability. (Edit: thinking of plastic here. Metal is innately recyclable, and toxic or valuable materials are a different matter. So recycle the circuit board.)

Recently outlawed: lead soldering, brominated flame retardants, incandescent bulbs, restrictions on power coefficient on power supplies bigger than 25W, cellphone charging through anything but miniusb.

The justification for the bans on lead soldering and incandescent bulbs is not as clear-cut as you might think. Lead-free soldering causes more wasted boards and less reliable products due to higher temperatures. Fluorescent bulbs contain toxic chemicals which most people don't dispose of correctly and just end up in landfill; and the supposed energy saving and longer lifespan isn't really there if you turn them on and off a lot.

In some countries plastic bags are banned, and that works just fine.

Similarly, the reusable bags have an environmental cost to make and to keep clean; and people start buying bin liners.

 

[hedwards]

I think recycling is mainly important for disposable items. For things that are meant to last a long time, it's not worth making them recycled/recyclable if that brings a compromise on the quality or durability. (Edit: thinking of plastic here. Metal is innately recyclable, and toxic or valuable materials are a different matter. So recycle the circuit board.)

Inded, the symbol that we use for recycling in the US is a triangle that represents reduce, reuse and recycle. Note that recycle is the last and reduce is first. A case that is well engineered and lasts for the life of the product is going to be preferable to one that needs to be replaced.

Also, the electronics inside of the case are likely to contribute far more to the greenness or lack thereof than the case itself.

 

[ekianjo]

Read carefully. I differentiate the "exhausted". Of course it will not be empty. However, it WILL be more expensive. It started being more expensive years ago! Someday it is just too expensive to be used for "cheap" products like consumer electronics.

You just assume that people will keep using petrol for mass transportation, which is a moot assumption. When petrol gets ridiculously expensive,  there will be cheaper alternatives like natural gas. The gas reserves are so huge now that we have enough for cheap gas to last hundred of years. Companies are not stupid: they will adapt.

Yes. There is nothing cheaper yet (!), but better: of course. It depends on your definition of "good" and "bad" to tell, which is better.

Better means better if you consider all elements and factors and look at pros and cons.

When you decide to look at it on the ecological angle you are biased by definition. 

I agree with _wb_'s point on making stuff durable. Cheap shit that breaks is the worst thing for ecological considerations. 

Bear in mind, that ekianjo does not care for atomic waste too.

I dont think I have either said that. I said in a different thread that small amounts of radiation are not harmful, which is not the same thing. And of course nuclear waste disposal is important. 

 

[comradekingu]

I think recycling is mainly important for disposable items. For things that are meant to last a long time, it's not worth making them recycled/recyclable if that brings a compromise on the quality or durability. (Edit: thinking of plastic here. Metal is innately recyclable, and toxic or valuable materials are a different matter. So recycle the circuit board.)

Plastic _is_ recyclable, by and large.

Recently outlawed: lead soldering, brominated flame retardants, incandescent bulbs, restrictions on power coefficient on power supplies bigger than 25W, cellphone charging through anything but miniusb.

The justification for the bans on lead soldering and incandescent bulbs is not as clear-cut as you might think. Lead-free soldering causes more wasted boards and less reliable products due to higher temperatures. Fluorescent bulbs contain toxic chemicals which most people don't dispose of correctly and just end up in landfill; and the supposed energy saving and longer lifespan isn't really there if you turn them on and off a lot.

I never said they were unproblematic, but they are very much banned from regular sale, whereas they werent just a few years ago. During the lifespan of the pandora to be clear.I dont know where you find your figures, but the ones i found differed a lot. In norway recycling is required by law.

And even if they were improperly disposed of it still wouldn't end up in a landfill. Because that is implying 1. nothing is in place to catch it in regular trash. 2. waste ends up in landfills.

Lead free soldering was on par with lead soldering sometime in 2009, when the ones who lagged behind transitioned to using modified reflow temperatures and speeds on existing equipment. What you are saying was true 10 years ago.

IPC 9706 Guidelines on Lead-free Implementation for High Reliability Applications. (Cant link to it since the security certificate at nasa is troublesome atm.)

Now its time to realize lead soldering isnt an option.

In some countries plastic bags are banned, and that works just fine.

Similarly, the reusable bags have an environmental cost to make and to keep clean; and people start buying bin liners.

Which for the case of argument could be just water and soap. Bin liners is a better idea too, since the amount of stuff you buy reduces in volume by the time you throw it away. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-out_of_lightweight_plastic_bags (i know the difference, but im fairly sure indonesia and bangladesh has a full ban in place)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_recycling#Plastic_identification_code

So avoiding bans is one thing, but lets not forget the fairphone was able to ship their generic phone in a super oversaturated phonemarket by the truckloads following a environmental approach. With those two considerations in mind we then haven't even begun to look at the bigger picture.

Ill try to make a section on the wiki of all the points the pandora checks off on.

Those customers tend not to care about the latest and shiniest hype too, so all is good. Maybe they are smarter than the general populace, in the sense one would possibly think they aren't, thats actually to our advantage.

The RoHS 2 directive (2011/65/EU) is an evolution of the original directive and became law on 21 July 2011 and took effect 2 January 2013. It addresses the same substances as the original directive while improving regulatory conditions and legal clarity. It requires periodic reevaluations that facilitate gradual broadening of its requirements to cover additional electronic and electrical equipment, cables and spare parts.

Atleast in norway, if you sell electronics, you are required to take it back in when its discarded, if the customer choses to discard it with you. Components that need to be broken down for recycling is expencive to expose of, but single component recyclables are free i think. Ease of disassembly, not only for hackery.

 

[ZXDunny]

But there are some researches in alternatives. Some uses oil from plants, which compete with plants making food for the growing world population. Others use the waste of plants we eat, like hay.

I have never knowingly eaten hay.

But ED said, that he will produce the Pandora 2 covers in europa

Excellent! I look forward to seeing that when it happens. It will be a launch to remember

D.

 

[Ziz]

But there are some researches in alternatives. Some uses oil from plants, which compete with plants making food for the growing world population. Others use the waste of plants we eat, like hay.

I have never knowingly eaten hay.

Is my English so bad? I meant: Even if we eat plants (like wheaten), we don't eat anything of it. In fact we just eat the corn. The rest is waste and used for animal food or (hopefully in the future) for eco plastic and energy. That was meant as opposite to use a plant totally for non-eating purpose like oilseed rape for "eco" gasoline.