Legally Emulating Games


Clad said:
It's what I was referring to earlier when I spoke of the mickey mouse act.
I know that :p , The reason that I posted the link is to show that Mickey mouse may not become public domain in 20 years, at least if Disney has anything to do with it.

+ yes I am feeling cynical today. ;)
 
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Nintendo gets the exact same amount of money if you download a game illegally than if you went and bought a second hand Mario 64 on ebay.

In fact, they get less because people have less money to spend on new games.

One is legal, one isn't. They are both morally equal in my opinion.

And seeing as there is zero per cent chance of anyone actually prosecuting you for using old roms then what's the problem?
 
declaration said:
Nintendo gets the exact same amount of money if you download a game illegally than if you went and bought a second hand Mario 64 on ebay.

In fact, they get less because people have less money to spend on new games.

One is legal, one isn't. They are both morally equal in my opinion.

And seeing as there is zero per cent chance of anyone actually prosecuting you for using old roms then what's the problem?
That was kind of my point. Both of them.
 
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I didn't intend to troll with my ethnical/religious statements. Sorry if I couldn't explain me better, but sentences as "this desire for doing what is right has been pretty much lost in the world in general" have little sense to me: nowadays morals are as low or high than in any other period of History. We are not worse than our parents. It seems than irony is not my best in English!

Clad said:
Second, the right to private copy is no more. They were some point in 2005/2006 where a glitch in the law made all piracy legal, as P2P was considered "lending things to friends" basically.
I can explain the situation of Spain. The right for a private copy has been severely downsized lately (2007). The original law said than you could make a copy of a creation if it was for non-profit. The SGAE (local RIAA) tried to make P2P an out-of-law saying that it wasn't non-profit since you got an actual profit not paying money. Judges always though different, understanding "profit" as "paying money" but not the negative clause. This was the main jurisprudence in Spain (European jurisprudence it is not based on precedents as English/American, but in the spirit of law that is understood by magistrates. Even with known precedents, different judges may have different judgements if they understand the spirit of law differently. It is not often the case, but if so there is a hierarchy of judges)

Currently the law says that you can do a private copy only if you've got access to a legal source. Many people understand this as "owning the original source", but actually it is unclear. "I got my Brian Adams collection two years ago in P2P, and it was legal then. Can I make a copy of it?" Besides, software is an exception here: in Spain you never ever had right to make a private copy of a software, but a backup copy if you have an original license. Not being a private copy is important since software developers have not the right of a "compensation" for this copy, as musicians have. That means that you can make a backup copy of a game that you own, and no more. Even if it is not sold any more, even if it is for non-profit. Actually, even if it is open source but I suppose it is going too much to the letter of the law and not the spirit.

Besides, the Right to intimacy is a constitutional right over any author's Right. That means that only authorised police officers are able to spy communications, and judges give such authorisations only in extreme cases (drug dealer, terrorism and so) Currently, defense of intellectual property is not enough reason to spy data communications, and then gathering evidences to charge of downloading software/music is nearly not possible for the local RIAA (SGAE) despite its tryings and petitions.

For the SGAE's rage, a Spaniard has never ever being charged for downloading software, music or movies from the net for non-profit. If there is a profit the situation is different, since the tax collector have something to say and THEN there are evidences without spying. Keep in mind that torrent sites with Google Adsense may be considered profitable, even if admins don't get enough to pay the hosting.
 
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The ZX Spectrum case is a rare one where the community has done it "the right way", asking for distribution permissions for old games to the authors and current copyright holders (when they can be found and bother to reply). Most authors and a good portion of companies have given permission, and therefore it's legal to download and play many Spectrum games. The bad side of it has been that some other companies (and a few authors) denied their permissions, and therefore their titles can't be obtained from the main scene sites.

http://www.worldofspectrum.org/permits/
 
Everyone's view on morals are flexible. I apologize for not remembering this when I wrote my reply. Also, I was talking mainly about the USA's morals specifically, and how, when placed against the morals I and others of same mind, they are degenerating.
 
Sobek said:
My understanding(As I'm into emulation and abandonware) is that as long as you have the cartridge, disk, card, etc. for a game you can legally download and use a ROM, ISO, BIN, etc.
(Not sure where everyone lives, but I like to disseminate knowledge.)
(Insane lawsuits come from litigious motherfuckers, not immorality.)
That was my understanding to, but... (continue to next quote)...


Yrx said:
There are a lot of rumors concerning ROM usage. In America, it is illegal to emulate commercial games. Period. Even if you own the game. Even if you dumped it yourself. The 24 hour idea is also a misconception, probably one that came out of general moral advice.
...I wanted to check first. Thanks Yrx for clearing that up. :)

hal9000 said:
javaJake said:
Making sure what I'm doing isn't wrong is important to me, though, so I'll keep thinking about it and doing a little research.
The problem is that the gap between what is morally acceptable and what is legal is quite big when it comes to game emulation.


I was talking about it being "morally acceptable" for myself. I know the difference: that's why I brought up the whole CD-ripping thing.

Clad said:
...

Fourth, the kind of games most of us are interested in I suppose (C64-type and Amiga-type) are often 100% free : the makers having gone bankrupt, no one holds any copyright on those.

Fifth, there is also some devs that explicitly decided to get their older games in public domain. Cinemaware is even distributing cracked roms of their old games (with original cracktro and everything !) on heir website.

Sixth, although is doesn't concern us yet (the oldest video game being about 50 years old or so), every US games more than 75 years old automatically go into public domain internationally. (was 50 before the mickey mouse act a few years ago)

...
Good points. Thanks for your input!
 
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Linkous said:
why's this in the pandora board? 0.o it seems more of an off topic, i could understand it being in emulation, but on the pandora board?

It seems to have found a home here. Plenty of replies. :)
 
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Linkous said:
why's this in the pandora board? 0.o it seems more of an off topic, i could understand it being in emulation, but on the pandora board?
Because it doesn't belong in the GP2X forum, GP32 forum, or the Support forums. This thread is relating to the upcoming Pandora release, and whether or not it's legal or moral to emulate consoles/games on it.
 
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Here is a short article from Curmudgeon Gamer explaining why basically all emulation is illegal.

I think that settles the issue of legality in the US, at least as recently as 2005. As for morality, only you can decide that. Nearly anything can be morally justified with a certain amount of creativity. There is no right answer.
 
Chip said:
Arguably, there is no right answer.
Fixed. :)

Chip said:
Here is a short article from Curmudgeon Gamer explaining why basically all emulation is illegal.



"...that means the owner of an original may make a a copy and that copy cannot be used unless the original is destroyed or damaged."

Ooo, ooo, loophole! I'll just buy the game, break it, and use the ROM as my main copy! :p
 
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I can see where javaJake is coming from here. If you know where to look there are old games where the copyright holder has given them up for free (and I'm not talking about abandonware sites, where the majority of titles do seem copyright free at the moment - it's like we'll post it up and if no one objects it stays there).

I think it would be really useful to have a list of sites which have legal downloads for the earlier systems. I know Team 17 have loads of their amiga games up for free, Rock Star too (already mentioned here). I think there us is a site callled World of Spectrum which has sought permission from various sources to host their games.

I think an afternoon researching google and targetting the publishers from back in the day, or who bought out who etc would result in a a pretty list of free legal roms/ disc images that we can use on GP2X. Some fan sites for particular systems will have already sought permission from various surces and also have a legal download librbrary games where they have been given the go ahead.

Given all the recent retro packs and PSN, Live, Wii downloads we will probably start seeing a drop in legal old roms.

A lot are out there - Might be a good idea to start a thread under Emulation - make it a sticky and people can post what they find. The laws may be different in different countries, but the impression I'm getting off this thread is that d/l roms from non legal sites is wrong regardless of '24 hour rules' or in most cases whether you even own the cartridge. From a quick look it seems easier to get 8 & 16 bit tape/disc images legally free compared to the main consoles of their day.

Research and see if any point in setting up such a thread. Would remove and 'currupt rom/image' when testing our emulators. Just an idea ..
 
Sobek said:
My understanding of US law(Admittedly out of date) is this: You may download and use a ROM, legally, for a maximum of 24 hours, after which you MUST delete it unless you have the physical cartridge for the game.
Misnomer, I'm afraid.

ROM sites used this a lot back in the day but it has no legal merit...well...anywhere.

US law, right now, is bound under the terms of the infamous DMCA(Digital Millennium Copyright Act). It states, in no uncertain terms:

QUOTE

(1) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that -
o (A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof;
o (B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof; or
o © is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof.
* (2) As used in this subsection -
o (A) to 'circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure' means avoiding, bypassing, removing, deactivating, or otherwise impairing a technological measure; and
o (B) a technological measure 'effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title' if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, prevents, restricts, or otherwise limits the exercise of a right of a copyright owner under this title.



Effectively, since all console games are manufactured in a way to discourage or prevent any copying, it means any such device as can copy a cart or CD is illegal by US law. Even if you own the game, the very act of moving it from medium to medium is illegal. This is also the case in Australia, having signed on to the WIPO nonsense the US is hellbent on cramming down the rest of the world's throats. Canada is also a member of WIPO, but at this moment, at least, we haven't signed on to any such laws and at the moment, medium shifting is legal(so if you're in Canada, a cart copying device, for example, is legit).

Also, it is illegal to distribute or acquire media protected by copyright from anyone except those authorized by the copyright holder in the US. In Canada, you can acquire anything made available publicly, but can not aid in its propagation(you can download, but not make available). Australia, again, follows the American method in regards to this.


So the short of it is: in Canada, under most circumstances, emulation is fine. As long as you don't distribute copywritten material(note that bittorrent counts as making available as you download as well as make available).

In the US, under no circumstances is it legal. Actually, some emulators may be considered illegal in the US(PSX emulators that don't emulate the mechanism that prevents copied discs, for example, could be challenged under the DMCA's anti-circumvention, but then again, so do bolt cutters).

I ain't a lawyer, but I do follow copyright law as a hobby:)
 
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Clad said:
Sixth, although is doesn't concern us yet (the oldest video game being about 50 years old or so), every US games more than 75 years old automatically go into public domain internationally. (was 50 before the mickey mouse act a few years ago)

Actually, its 150 years (WTF!?).
 
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This is what I've heard/read about US and EU (atleast in the Netherlands) policy.

You can not emulate downloaded console games. But it's legal to make a dump of your game with a ROM-backup-device. Even if you have the same file in the end (No way to track that down but whatever). Backing up your games is legal (No matter if it's a PC or console game). As far as I know it's also legal to emulate your own dumped game.

The 24 hour idea is bullcrap. This is something the ROM sites made up..

There is no such thing as abandonware. If a company decides to make their game downloadable for free, then it's freeware. And it takes ages for a game to go into public domain.. (commercial games are not old enough yet)

So yeah, it's more a moral issue..If I have the original cartridges/CD's I don't care about downloading/emulating the official games.
If I don't own the official games, I care a bit more.. but still...
 
gavie said:
This is what I've heard/read about US and EU (atleast in the Netherlands) policy.

You can not emulate downloaded console games. But it's legal to make a dump of your game with a ROM-backup-device. Even if you have the same file in the end (No way to track that down but whatever). Backing up your games is legal (No matter if it's a PC or console game). As far as I know it's also legal to emulate your own dumped game.

The 24 hour idea is bullcrap. This is something the ROM sites made up..

There is no such thing as abandonware. If a company decides to make their game downloadable for free, then it's freeware. And it takes ages for a game to go into public domain.. (commercial games are not old enough yet)

So yeah, it's more a moral issue..If I have the original cartridges/CD's I don't care about downloading/emulating the official games.
If I don't own the official games, I care a bit more.. but still...
Copying the cart in the US is illegal, even for personal use. See my post above. It falls under the DMCA anti-circumvention rules.

Not sure about EU. Legit in Canada at least.
 
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realyst said:
Copying the cart in the US is illegal, even for personal use. See my post above. It falls under the DMCA anti-circumvention rules.

Not sure about EU. Legit in Canada at least.
Okay, but copying a CD of let's say a PSX or PC game for backup purpose is legal right?
If so, how come you can't make a dump of your N64 cartridge? Because it's quite the same actually..

If that's both illegal, US law really sucks

EDIT: Ok sorry, I read your previous post now.. US law really does suck :p
 
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javaJake said:
I hear about all these games, and would love to try them out, but I want to do it legally. Someone had shown me how to get Mario Kart 64 onto my computer once, but it dawned on me (yep, it's that same ol' 40w bulb!) a few days later that it was probably illegal, so I promptly deleted it.

So it all boils down to this simple question: what's the legal way I can do this? :)
this is info for the us only. i don't know other countries laws, and i make no claim. No i wont help you do this. this information is posted free of charge without any intent to support you. in other words, your undertaking this for yourself, and i would even doubt the validity of the information if i were you. really.

very simple, you buy the target game. you then buy the appropriate hardware, which is very hard to find, to do things more legally you make the hardware (and in some cases, like the NES, you can only make the dumper now.) No i wont help you do this.

find the software to run said dumper under modern OSes. no i wont help you on this either

legally your allowed one backup copy per game, however to be entitled to this copy, YOU HAVE TO MAKE IT YOURSELF. anything else, is uncivilized... according to the DMCA laws.

the 24 hour rule was bull posted by one website back in the day (i believe it was plasticman's network, round 12ish years ago.) that was before the DMCA was posted however, and it may have been true WAY back when, but its not now.

long story short, unless you have access to a large amount time and cash, public domain roms are your best bet legally. but that i can give you a website for even legally without violating any TOS www.pdroms.com
 
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