Keyboard Suggestions

[teggun]

Teggun said:
Just because you use a shell all the time, doesn't mean everyone else does, the Pandora should appeal to more than just geeks and nerds, it should appeal to normal people who just want to play!

And I say:

woahh. Easy =P

Just because YOU want to play games that use 4-6 buttons, doesn't mean the rest of us don't want to play Dosbox, C64, Amiga and whatever else games that needs a keyboard


Plus writing a script, displacing files or doing whatever basic stuff in a shell is not writing assembly code please don't use extreme arguments for the sake of proving your biased point =P


You're discarding a great deals of users, calling them nerds, because you only want a gaming system...

"only a gaming system" exists, it's called a DS, a PSP, etc


The worst thing is that you are almost insulting Devs in the process... who's going to make your pretty games and emulators then? Geeks and hackers are the ones make everything possible when it comes to these devices, you owe them.

Finally, I think on the go dev could be a plus for all of us, some people spend a lot of time in public transportation, or wherever else where you got time to waste and might not have access to a desktop computer.

M2C

Edit: Can't spell




True that there are many games that would utilise a keyboard in this manner, it would be difficult to play these games effectively. The point I'm trying to make is that the keyboard (whilst it obviously will be there) is not a feature which:

a) 100% of the users on this forum wanted
and
B) should really not be taken as a priority in terms of size, space etc. as the majority of users (I assume) won't use it as much as they use the gaming controls.

I'm a programmer aswell so I couldn't be insulting myself, it's just there are different breeds of people, some just won't use a keyboard anywhere near as much as others, and the users using a keyboard for tasks which Balzac2m described in his original posts are going to be minimal and as such the gaming controls need to be made the priority in the design.

I think a lot of people are forgetting that the craiginator was designed to be a gaming system from the ground up and a lot of the other uses people seem to want it for just won't be used by anyone who isn't a developer/geek/special user.


(Btw I had a couple to drink before I wrote the original post so take it with a pinch of salt- I was just outraged at my award given to me by danboid, however I will graciously accept it if a trophy is involved at some stage.)

 

[xcen]

Lol fair enough =)

I do agree that the device would benefit from being thought of as "you can always plug in a usb keyboard" more than "you can always plug in a usb gamepad"

ie.: gaming controls have higher priority than they keyboard, but having a functional keyboard would be more than awesome for a select group of people


dunno if my idea is clear but I can't be bothered to express it otherwise lolz... I'm leaving for vacation in 5 mins!

 

[danboid]

QUOTE

The point I'm trying to make is that the keyboard (whilst it obviously will be there) is not a feature which:

a) 100% of the users on this forum wanted
and
B) should really not be taken as a priority in terms of size, space etc. as the majority of users (I assume) won't use it as much as they use the gaming controls.




Teggun:

There probably isn't ANYTHING about this device that everybody (100% of the users) will use other than the POWER ON/OFF switch. The built-in mini keyboard is totally a central, star feature of this device. If you just want games and console-only emus I recommend you go buy a PSP.

Not everyone will be coding on this device but again the fact that you will be able to run GCC natively really quite well (yessir - I've never grumbled about compile times on my Zaurus- I'd say my Z would be comparable to a PII 400 for GCC) on this device is really going to excite all the coders as cross-compiling can be a pain to set up.

Those who don't even know what a compiler is will appreciate being able to quickly and easily search for stuff on the net, send short e-mails etc. OK, if you're doing some SERIOUS coding or other work you'll want to plug in a keyboard but as soon as we introduce stuff like that its instantly not portable any more, even if its a half-size or roll up keyboard you'll still need a separate bag for that.

Who isn't going to use the keyboard at all? How many people wouldn't want to use at least some of the power computing functionality Linux offers. Not very many I'll bet, as these people are quite happy with their PSP or DS.

 

[moxie]

Who wants to type commands into a 4" screen on a tiny keyboard on a handheld gaming system?

I do. It's the most efficient way evar to manage files and directories and stuff. Whenever I decide to move my roms folder somewhere or rename my gmu-settings-file to settings.old before risking a new install. Or something like that. And also, this going to be what it is going to be, there will come times when applications hang. I sure want to be able to kill them the proper way, instead of having to powercycle just for a hanging emulator (and thus disrupting my download of above mentioned new version of gmu, that I had running in the background).

 

[Peter R]

I intend to program actually on the device. I hope it has braces.

 

[javaJake]

You guys might want to take another peek at the keyboard at http://openpandora.ca/

 

[whiskthecat]

I intend to program actually on the device. I hope it has braces.

The F and G keys contain the braces.

 

[Shiny]

Since the keyboard is obviously too small to be used for serious finger typing, why not make the keys smaller, split it down the middle, and move them out towards the sides of the device?
This way you can easily reach every key for comfortable thumb typing

It'd be nice if the number keys were moved down with the other keys because it seems like it would be a pain having to reach all the way up there constantly.

 

[whiskthecat]

I really think people are misunderstanding the size of the device. Just imagine the face of your gp2x as the lower half of the Pandora. Putting a mini keyboard on that would be perfect for thumb typing. No matter where you put it on the face of the lower half its going to be pretty comfy.

 

[Mr B]

Who wants to type commands into a 4" screen on a tiny keyboard on a handheld gaming system? No one does, only developers and nerds enjoy that sort of thing, whereas everyone else just wants to play games! We want to turn the system on and play on the train, we don't want to remotely administrate a server whilst writing assembly code! This is a gaming system!

If we need a shell we'll plug a massive great big keyboard in and type away at twice the speed! A keyboard might be useful for a bit, but really there's a limit, just because you use a shell all the time, doesn't mean everyone else does, the Pandora should appeal to more than just geeks and nerds, it should appeal to normal people who just want to play! There's a reason the DS, PSP etc. etc. etc. don't have CLI's and qwerty keyboards and that's simply because they don't need them to play games!
I like your argument. In fact i like it so much, its my main argument for not putting a keyboard on the darn thing at all. It has a touchscreen, make it cheaper to manufacture, and ship it with a small USB keyboard instead. Possibly one with a USB hub built in. That way it can be focused on what it needs to focus at, gaming capabilities, putting the buttons where they need to be, to work properly....

There probably isn't ANYTHING about this device that everybody (100% of the users) will use other than the POWER ON/OFF switch. The built-in mini keyboard is totally a central, star feature of this device. If you just want games and console-only emus I recommend you go buy a PSP.
Last time i checked, this was supposed to be a system made for gaming. The perfect thing to do, would be to remove the keyboard, and provide a small keypad with a usb cable, along with making darn sure it's able to use any generic USB keyboard as a native keyboard.

I do. It's the most efficient way evar to manage files and directories and stuff. Whenever I decide to move my roms folder somewhere or rename my gmu-settings-file to settings.old before risking a new install. Or something like that. And also, this going to be what it is going to be, there will come times when applications hang. I sure want to be able to kill them the proper way, instead of having to powercycle just for a hanging emulator (and thus disrupting my download of above mentioned new version of gmu, that I had running in the background).
I Kinda agree. Some means of typing is essential, but i would much rather have the touchscreen for that, then this shrunken down keyboard.
B!

 

[Sphinxter]

Who wants to type commands into a 4" screen on a tiny keyboard on a handheld gaming system? No one does, only developers and nerds enjoy that sort of thing, whereas everyone else just wants to play games! We want to turn the system on and play on the train, we don't want to remotely administrate a server whilst writing assembly code! This is a gaming system!

If we need a shell we'll plug a massive great big keyboard in and type away at twice the speed! A keyboard might be useful for a bit, but really there's a limit, just because you use a shell all the time, doesn't mean everyone else does, the Pandora should appeal to more than just geeks and nerds, it should appeal to normal people who just want to play! There's a reason the DS, PSP etc. etc. etc. don't have CLI's and qwerty keyboards and that's simply because they don't need them to play games!
I like your argument. In fact i like it so much, its my main argument for not putting a keyboard on the darn thing at all. It has a touchscreen, make it cheaper to manufacture, and ship it with a small USB keyboard instead. Possibly one with a USB hub built in. That way it can be focused on what it needs to focus at, gaming capabilities, putting the buttons where they need to be, to work properly....


Here here. Adding a bunch of keys as some sort of homage to the amiga would seem to be just padding the costs with no benefit to it's main audience. If you want it to do data entry write some decent handwriting recognition for the touchscreen. Touch screen devices doesn't need a keyboard and vice versa.

 

[teggun]

It'd be nice if the number keys were moved down with the other keys because it seems like it would be a pain having to reach all the way up there constantly.

Yeah the number keys look a bit odd atm, it would be a lot nicer to put them elsewhere, or down the side of the keyboard in a 2x5 mini number block

 

[teggun]

Here here. Adding a bunch of keys as some sort of homage to the amiga would seem to be just padding the costs with no benefit to it's main audience. If you want it to do data entry write some decent handwriting recognition for the touchscreen. Touch screen devices doesn't need a keyboard and vice versa.

The best option for me would be two systems, one with a keyboard and one without. The inclusion of a keyboard is something I feel the entire community is divided on..

It does seem that the main argument for a keyboard is text entry in some form or another, which won't be all that great given the size of the thing, and for amiga C64 games etc. which does seem to be some sort of novelty/homage as you say...

However, the main reason I would prefer the pandora without a keyboard is that it could then be permanently in tablet mode, giving the touch screen proper use. I recall someone saying with the current design the touchscreen is a wasted feature, and I have to agree, it will be unrealistic to use the touch screen on a clamshell design (which cannot be used in tablet mode)- hence why there are no clamshell systems with touch screens (AFAIK) that don't rotate into a tablet style mode.

 

[foft]

The keyboard on openpandora.ca actually looks quite good for shell access to me. Better than that GP32 one... It has |,.>, quotes etc. Since space doesn't have a fn use, how about using fn+space for control? They are next to each other so should be fairly easy to get. Or perhaps even fn->space for control c since the other variants are rarely used.

I think the dpad should send directions by default... (I mean like the arrow keys)

I wonder if smaller keys (with the same spacing) may be easier to type on. Since it should reduce the changes of hitting nearby keys. Or perhaps just a raised bump in each key.

Thanks,

Mark

 

[mjau]

I'm surprised noone has mentioned AltGr yet. Adding an AltGr key would literally double the amount of symbols available, and be specially great for us that use international keyboard layouts.

With AltGr it should be possible to at least be able to input the most important stuff in many languages, though of course some more keys for international usage would be nice too =). At least one right of P and two right of L would be great (preferably more, but it'd probably be hard enough squeezing those in..)

 

[danboid]

QUOTE

However, the main reason I would prefer the pandora without a keyboard is that it could then be permanently in tablet mode, giving the touch screen proper use. I recall someone saying with the current design the touchscreen is a wasted feature, and I have to agree, it will be unrealistic to use the touch screen on a clamshell design (which cannot be used in tablet mode)- hence why there are no clamshell systems with touch screens (AFAIK) that don't rotate into a tablet style mode.



My Zaurus has a touch screen and keyboard and I use them both all the time as they work very well. However, I never, NEVER, use it it clamshell mode because on-screen keyboards suck BIG TIME, and hand-writing /voice recognition... forget it!

I have said before that I don't think a touchscreen would be very useful for the gaming aspect of the Pandora but others disagreed.

Let's all try to remember that, unlike the GP2X, this is NOT just a gaming device anymore, and as far as it being used as a computing device the keyboard, small as it is, is an essential element and it's not going away. If they did decide decide to dump it, the Pandora would lose all its appeal for me.

Small keyboards, built in keyboards are infinitely better than no keyboard and much, much more convenient than even the smallest separate USB add-on.

 

[teggun]

QUOTE

However, the main reason I would prefer the pandora without a keyboard is that it could then be permanently in tablet mode, giving the touch screen proper use. I recall someone saying with the current design the touchscreen is a wasted feature, and I have to agree, it will be unrealistic to use the touch screen on a clamshell design (which cannot be used in tablet mode)- hence why there are no clamshell systems with touch screens (AFAIK) that don't rotate into a tablet style mode.

My Zaurus has a touch screen and keyboard and I use them both all the time as they work very well. However, I never, NEVER, use it it clamshell mode because on-screen keyboards suck BIG TIME, and hand-writing /voice recognition... forget it!

I have said before that I don't think a touchscreen would be very useful for the gaming aspect of the Pandora but others disagreed.

Let's all try to remember that, unlike the GP2X, this is NOT just a gaming device anymore, and as far as it being used as a computing device the keyboard, small as it is, is an essential element and it's not going away. If they did decide decide to dump it, the Pandora would lose all its appeal for me.

Small keyboards, built in keyboards are infinitely better than no keyboard and much, much more convenient than even the smallest separate USB add-on.


Well the touchscreen will for a lot of people be useful for strategy games etc. and allow for more inventive apps/games to be written for the device, web browsing would be a lot easier.

But, something almost everyone seems to be forgetting, is that the Pandora IS and was always supposed to be a gaming device! It's for games, with a few (secondary) additions. If a general purpose machine is going to be built we might aswell remove the graphics chip, and get rid of the gaming controls a build a tiny eee style laptop.

I thought the keyboard was there to support games, not to remove them from the main focus of the device.

 

[Yuglooc]

QUOTE

However, the main reason I would prefer the pandora without a keyboard is that it could then be permanently in tablet mode, giving the touch screen proper use. I recall someone saying with the current design the touchscreen is a wasted feature, and I have to agree, it will be unrealistic to use the touch screen on a clamshell design (which cannot be used in tablet mode)- hence why there are no clamshell systems with touch screens (AFAIK) that don't rotate into a tablet style mode.

My Zaurus has a touch screen and keyboard and I use them both all the time as they work very well. However, I never, NEVER, use it it clamshell mode because on-screen keyboards suck BIG TIME, and hand-writing /voice recognition... forget it!

I have said before that I don't think a touchscreen would be very useful for the gaming aspect of the Pandora but others disagreed.

Let's all try to remember that, unlike the GP2X, this is NOT just a gaming device anymore, and as far as it being used as a computing device the keyboard, small as it is, is an essential element and it's not going away. If they did decide decide to dump it, the Pandora would lose all its appeal for me.

Small keyboards, built in keyboards are infinitely better than no keyboard and much, much more convenient than even the smallest separate USB add-on.



But, something almost everyone seems to be forgetting, is that the Pandora IS and was always supposed to be a gaming device! It's for games, with a few (secondary) additions.


I am pretty sure Craig would describe p&|a as a "General purpose machine with gaming compability"

Saying the graphic card's presence is a sign of it being a gaming console is like saying windows was developed for games, cause microsoft bundled directx. I do believe the p&|a was developed to appeal to both the PDA market, the minilaptop market, the computer gamer market AND the console gamer market.

I think saying the Pandora is just developed to be for games is rather naive. I would like craig or any other of the developers to make a statement on this, because many of the comments want to base their oppinion on the fact that it's "just" a gaming device.

 

[teggun]

Well on the bluwiki article the first thing it says is:

Pandora will be an extremely powerful handheld gaming system.

and that's been there AFAIK since the page was setup.

It's clear it's not JUST for gaming, but gaming shouldn't be sacrificed if the above statement was the goal of the project. I can see the Pandora trying to do too much and being stuck in between a games system and a PDA and not achieving either properly.

IMHO Craig and Co. need to make sure they're creating what they set out to create.

 

[whiskthecat]

If a general purpose machine is going to be built we might aswell remove the graphics chip, and get rid of the gaming controls a build a tiny eee style laptop.

I want an eee pc and I don't want to carry my 2x along with it. Pandora is the answer, simple as that. Why does the keyboard bother you so much, it's not going to try and bite you if you want to play a game.