Keyboard Suggestions

[Tobriand]

I think we're fairly agreed that the keyboard for Pandora needs a bit of work. It currently lacks CTRL, ALT, backspace, and many others. Some also want it to be accessed in a different manner (e.g. fold out), though it should be clear from MWeston's topic that that can't be done due to patent reasons.

Exactly which changes need to be made, however, and the mechanisms for so doing still seem to be being debated, and since it seems to be an issue that we're led to believe we may still have influence on, it makes sense to put suggestions for changes to it in a separate topic - namely this one!

My specific requests/ideas/thoughts:

- CTRL/ALT needed in some form
- Backspace would be useful
- Tab ought to have it's own button due to it's frequent use in Linux to finish entires.
- The slants at either side should, if possible, be maintained to avoid accidental key hitting.

It crosses my mind, however, that CTRL and ALT need not be separate keys. If they're implemented as sticky, then being held doesn't become an issue, so they can be in inconvenient places - e.g. on the number bar at the top. In addition, there's no real need for them to be separate buttons. A typical sticky implementation has one press sets the sticky key on, the next turns it off. So how about presses cycle CTRL-->ALT-->off, saving on keyboard realestate. It is possible this could be combined with shift, although that might be a touch overcrowded (Shift being given priority as a much more used key).

Also, I'd suggest replacing Del with Backspace, and having the FN+Bkspc combination equate to del. This would mean character deletion is performed in the manner most familiar to PC-users, but that the obligatory (and slightly more complex) del key is still present.

I also notice there is no FN combo for either space or enter - any reason?

 

[chris_r]

I think the main thing I would want is for the keyboard to be slightly recessed so that a slide on cover can be put over the top. I don't think the keys should be exposed by default so that it looks more like a games console (which it is) when you want it to be, and more like a palmtop when you want to use palmtop features.

 

[atomicthumbs]

Tobriand: your suggestions sound good, but I don't like the "sticky keys" concept. I use control and alt a lot (console and other things).

It would be nice to have function keys (F1-F12) so we can switch between consoles and X and etceteras.

 

[Balzac2m]

Buttons I need besides the already existant:
* Control
* Alt
* Slash
* Tab
* Point

Mainly for using a shell, i need them all and I'd rather remap a letter to them than not having them.
And (in software) I want that when I press Control and Alt, the numbers automatically transform into Functionkeys.
Really, I am sure the device will be kind of usable without a shell, but for some tasks a shell is just way better suited, so please add those buttons, imagine the following:
Two shells open (no X-Server to save battery time):

CODE
sudo mount /dev/sda1 /media/us[TAB]

change to shell two
CODE
Control+Alt+2

CODE
startx

Oh shit it's taking forever!!
CODE
-> Control+C

Well I'll use lynx instead
CODE
lynx G forum.gp2x.de [TAB][TAB][TAB][TAB][TAB][TAB][TAB][ENTER]

back to shell 1
CODE
Control+Alt+1

CODE
cd /media/us[TAB] ./skripty


and so on. Really, give us those keys, not everyone wants to use GUIs all day.

 

[teggun]

and so on. Really, give us those keys, not everyone wants to use GUIs all day.

Remember though that very, very few users will use the console daily or infact at all.

 

[Yrx]

and so on. Really, give us those keys, not everyone wants to use GUIs all day.

Remember though that very, very few users will use the console daily or infact at all.

This kind of gets into a question I've been wondering about. How often are people even going to use the backend portions of something like this, besides things like programming (which would be more convenient on a regular PC anyways)? I know personally I'm just going to play my heart out on this little dude (dudegirl?). I can see where it would be fun to hack around in, though, and either way keys like control and alt should definitely be included. Also, if MWeston or someone could clarify, is that delete key a true delete key, or just a misnomered backspace? I would definitely prefer a backspace over a true delete, and have delete as the secondary function.

 

[Balzac2m]

and so on. Really, give us those keys, not everyone wants to use GUIs all day.

Remember though that very, very few users will use the console daily or infact at all.


Well, this would certainly not change if these keys aren't on the keyboard.

 

[MWeston]

It was supposed to be a backspace key with the DEL as a 'function' option. The shoulder buttons could make nice forward and backspace buttons as well (depending on how you hold the device).

I also think some of the other function options have not been added to the render. For instance, number 8 has a WiFi on/off feature on one of my mock ups.

The CTRL key is another one that should be there as a primary function somewhere. I think the TAB key was also being considered for the right shoulder button.

 

[Yrx]

It was supposed to be a backspace key with the DEL as a 'function' option. The shoulder buttons could make nice forward and backspace buttons as well (depending on how you hold the device).

I also think some of the other function options have not been added to the render. For instance, number 8 has a WiFi on/off feature on one of my mock ups.

The CTRL key is another one that should be there as a primary function somewhere. I think the TAB key was also being considered for the right shoulder button.

Okay, cool. Sounds good.

 

[atomicthumbs]

I'm not sure we should have keys mapped to shoulder buttons. It just sounds dangerous, and "not the right way to do things". I'd much rather have keyboard keys go on the keyboard.

 

[Vorporeal]

Tobriand: your suggestions sound good, but I don't like the "sticky keys" concept. I use control and alt a lot (console and other things).

It would be nice to have function keys (F1-F12) so we can switch between consoles and X and etceteras.

Maybe FN+number keys? That would be an exact representation of the F-keys... Function 1, Function 2, etc.

 

[Shiny]

How about instead of the outer keys being like stairs, they could have angled sides.
This would feel allot better if you finger ever rubbed against it, and look better as well.

 

[xcen]

I agree with all that said that we need basic "unixy" keys =P

Although I'd rather use GUIs all day, I find it very frustrating not being able to access the console in a decent way on my F200 (no SSH and Sterm's USB keyboard support sucks, in my experience)

So for a Pandora I would think those keys SHOULD be there

Nothing prevents you from having different keyboard modes and using shoulder, ABXY, Select Start buttons as "unixy" keys

M2C

 

[danboid]

and so on. Really, give us those keys, not everyone wants to use GUIs all day.

Remember though that very, very few users will use the console daily or infact at all.


and the award for the most shockingly wrong posting on a forum in 2007 goes to....

TEGGUN!!!!

So, teggun, is it really true that you HONESTLY believed very, very few people would want to use a shell or any other keyboard-centric apps or games on the Pandora? Reminds me of GamePark's ideas on what people would want to use the GP2X for "Oh, no-one is interested in emulation". I'm presuming from this posting you're either

a) Joking
B ) Never used Linux/Unix

Anyway, back onto the keyboard (Thank GOD slide-out keyboards are patented I say! Nasty tacky shyte, eyeeurgh!)

I'm presuming, as I don't think I've seen it mentioned explicitly, that the d-pad will also double up as the arrow keys, which are also essential for console (as in shell users? Kinda goes without saying I suppose.

Yes, I too would prefer it to be backspace and then DEL if you Fn-press it

I was originally requesting TAB, CTRL and ESC have their own proper keys but after thinking about it more I realised that it is more important that ALT have its own key before ESC as ALT is used to switch consoles/desktops and of course we have to remember that when X misbehaves we'll need to pull out the ol' CTRL-ALT-BACKSPACE 3-finger salute.

So what are we going to have as the default keyboard mappings for MENU, START, SELECT and the fire buttons or will they remain strictly for gameplay? If we have to use these as some of the important keys then I think it'd make sense to use MENU for TAB as TAB often brings up a menu in FPS games. The shoulder buttons would logically be PAGE UP and PAGE DOWN but I don't know how useful that'd really be.

 

[teggun]

and so on. Really, give us those keys, not everyone wants to use GUIs all day.

Remember though that very, very few users will use the console daily or infact at all.


and the award for the most shockingly wrong posting on a forum in 2007 goes to....

TEGGUN!!!!

So, teggun, is it really true that you HONESTLY believed very, very few people would want to use a shell or any other keyboard-centric apps or games on the Pandora? Reminds me of GamePark's ideas on what people would want to use the GP2X for "Oh, no-one is interested in emulation". I'm presuming from this posting you're either

a) Joking
B ) Never used Linux/Unix



What are you talking about? I actually use Linux and the command line everyday and have done for quite a few years now. However, I use the command line on a full size keyboard on a 19 inch screen not on a handheld gaming system.

Who wants to type commands into a 4" screen on a tiny keyboard on a handheld gaming system? No one does, only developers and nerds enjoy that sort of thing, whereas everyone else just wants to play games! We want to turn the system on and play on the train, we don't want to remotely administrate a server whilst writing assembly code! This is a gaming system!

If we need a shell we'll plug a massive great big keyboard in and type away at twice the speed! A keyboard might be useful for a bit, but really there's a limit, just because you use a shell all the time, doesn't mean everyone else does, the Pandora should appeal to more than just geeks and nerds, it should appeal to normal people who just want to play! There's a reason the DS, PSP etc. etc. etc. don't have CLI's and qwerty keyboards and that's simply because they don't need them to play games!

 

[Balzac2m]

Well, the keyboard will be there no matter what.
So why not make it usable for more people. I'm planning to buy a 10" Laptop and it's still too big to take it everywhere. I won't write 400line-shellscripts on the bus, but without /.Ctrlalttab it would take forever just to to the most basic shellwork.
I agree with teggun that the vast majority won't use the shell if they don't have to, but I suspect that they will when they hook up external devices to the pandora. Mounting USB-Storage may be plug and play, but a USB rocket-launcher may be a bit of work .

But teggun your point of gaming devices having no keyboard because you don't need it for gaming is not logical. On DS and PSP one plays games which are designed to be played on them to you don't need a keyboard.
When you can use a keyboard, things tend to be usable faster. Take DOS-BOX for example. Sure someone will make a graphical interface for it, but I bet the first version will be without it so having a keyboard makes us run STUNTS faster.

And the most important point, without those keys, people like my and danboid will be moaning all the time. With this keys I don't think we will see threads like "WHY SO MANY USELESS KEYS????". I don't know anybody personally who'd buy this device and wouldn't like to be able to use a shell.

 

[xcen]

Teggun said:
Just because you use a shell all the time, doesn't mean everyone else does, the Pandora should appeal to more than just geeks and nerds, it should appeal to normal people who just want to play!



And I say:

woahh. Easy =P

Just because YOU want to play games that use 4-6 buttons, doesn't mean the rest of us don't want to play Dosbox, C64, Amiga and whatever else games that needs a keyboard


Plus writing a script, displacing files or doing whatever basic stuff in a shell is not writing assembly code please don't use extreme arguments for the sake of proving your biased point =P


You're discarding a great deals of users, calling them nerds, because you only want a gaming system...

"only a gaming system" exists, it's called a DS, a PSP, etc


The worst thing is that you are almost insulting Devs in the process... who's going to make your pretty games and emulators then? Geeks and hackers are the ones make everything possible when it comes to these devices, you owe them.

Finally, I think on the go dev could be a plus for all of us, some people spend a lot of time in public transportation, or wherever else where you got time to waste and might not have access to a desktop computer.

M2C

Edit: Can't spell

 

[Balzac2m]

Somehting on how to hold the device while typing. It seems to me, many people here think that thumtyping is a good idea. It has been a while since i thumptyped on a zaurus so can anybody tell me how you are supposed to write capital letters?
Pushing shift with the thump and reaching all over the keyboard with the other to type a "x"?

 

[Karel Jansens]

Somehting on how to hold the device while typing. It seems to me, many people here think that thumtyping is a good idea. It has been a while since i thumptyped on a zaurus so can anybody tell me how you are supposed to write capital letters?
Pushing shift with the thump and reaching all over the keyboard with the other to type a "x"?

Sticky shift?

 

[Balzac2m]

Oh, well, yeah. D'Oh.