Keyboard feel

[HelenF]

From the Finalizing everything Pyra news thread...

I was saying they were too hard, but actually I'm testing them more carefully now, and on both of mine, some of the keys need pressing quite a lot harder than others (different keys on both). So maybe a new keymat would be a good idea. But I definitely remember thinking the keys were too hard when they were newer.

 

[rygD]

I only picked the last two options, since I really don't know how to describe the other problem. I wouldn't say it is too soft, since it isn't hard to push. I wouldn't say it is too hard, since it just feels...squishy. It isn't "just right" either.

I guess I don't know how to play Goldilocks.

 

[___]

Don't get me wrong, I always loved to type on my pandora, but: If I could turn back time, I'd also ask for a keyboard mat that has better tactile feel to it (the squishiness rygD is talking about) and is not as hard to press. It't not hard as in stiff... I am also lacking the words to describe it but I am sure you both mean the same thing as I.

 

[rygD]

Rereading what I said about it not being soft, I have no clue what I was trying to say. It isn't soft because it isn't hard?

I think if you feel it and it bugs you it is easy to identify, even if it is difficult to describe. That is probably my biggest concern about the Pyra keyboard. I think ED understands what bothers some of us, as it sounds like he fixed how much we have to push on the Pandora keys, and I think that is a major factor to that weird feeling.

 

[comradekingu]

The new album by Colemak and the Dvoraks.

Edit: With such unforgettable hits as:

'Fine how it is', 'Too hard', 'Too soft', and the saxophone-laden 'Not great on the tactile feedback'

And the unforgettably emotional,
'Keys don't all respond the same'.

Don't we all know that feel.

 

[HelenF]

I found one mention of it for Pyra:

[Silicone keys for the keyboard] It's the same as on the Pandora (just improved the tactile feedback a bit)

I remember seeing something about changing the travel distance of the keys, but can't find it now.

Ah, here it is. That is encouraging . So hopefully it's all fixed now?

The mat itself is a bit less stiff than Pandoras mat, so the keys are a little lighter to press.
However, tactile feedback isn't great yet. It seems the travel distance for the keys and especially the action buttons is not far enough.
This can easily be proved: When the keymat is lying on a flat surface, the keys feel a bit squishy when you press them.
If you put the keymat on a flat surface but have a hole below the key you want to press, then it feels great. A perfect proof that the carbon pad reaches the PCB before the button is fully pressed.

My guess is that the manufacturer followed my design guide for the travel distance WITHOUT the carbon pads - and then, with the carbon pads added on top, the travel distance went lower.

That's no big deal though, I can easily measure how much travel distance is missing and it will be removed for the next sample.

 

[levi]

I voted for 'find how it is' and 'not great on tactile feedback' because as mentioned in the previous thread, it does tend to activate before I'm sure it has. That's a lot better than it not activating when I feel sure that it has, but still a small issue in the way the keycap support deforms to let it activate. But it's not too soft or two hard for me which is why I voted for 'fine how it is'.

 

[Grench]

For a collapsing dome mechanical keyboard, the Pandora was pretty good. Not great, but pretty good and good enough.

Any improvement for the Pyra is of course welcome.

I get the idea that some will not be happy unless it's built with Cherry mechanical switches and adds 2cm to the end height.

 

[EvilDragon]

Well, we can always switch to dome caps with rubber keymats, which could improve the tactile feedback, but it would make clicky noises.

It's possible, we could offer upgrades later.
I'd like to test that at some time, but we didn't have the fundings for such tests for the first batch.

The keymat would be the same, but it would click on the domes instead of directly on the keys.

 

[shaddim]

I get the idea that some will not be happy unless it's built with Cherry mechanical switches and adds 2cm to the end height.

'Indeed, I could be one of them (I would pay for an "tactile" upgrade & tolerate "clicky noises" very well)

I still love my IBM keyboard M (nothing beats Buckling spring) and sent even a cherry with blue switches back after testing. My next keyboard would be an Unicomp.

But back on topic: does someone knows what was the key technology in the old NOkia not smartphones (3310 etc) I always had the impression they had a great tactile feedback for small traveldistance and compact keys.

 

[Caine]

'Indeed, I could be one of them (I would pay for an "tactile" upgrade & don't care at all for "clicky noises")

I still love my IBM keyboard M (nothing beats Buckling spring) and sent even a cherry with blue switches back after testing. My next keyboard I would be an Unicomp.

Agreed, cherry switches suck. Buckling spring is the only acceptable one

I disagree on the noise though, the sound of the model M is half the experience.

The Pandora is a bit too spungy for me to really enjoy typing on it, but compromises have to be made. At least it's not a touchscreen keyboard.

 

[Grench]

'Indeed, I could be one of them (I would pay for an "tactile" upgrade & don't care at all for "clicky noises")

I still love my IBM keyboard M (nothing beats Buckling spring) and sent even a cherry with blue switches back after testing. My next keyboard I would be an Unicomp.

But back on topic: does someone knows what was the key technology in the old NOkia not smartphones (3310 etc) I always had the impression they had a great tactile feedback for small traveldistance and compact keys.

Agreed, cherry switches suck. Buckling spring is the only acceptable one

I disagree on the noise though, the sound of the model M is half the experience.

The Pandora is a bit too spungy for me to really enjoy typing on it, but compromises have to be made. At least it's not a touchscreen keyboard.

The fact that the two of you can even consider touch typing on a keyboard the size of the Pandora or Pyra is simply odd. They're about 2/3 width and half the length of a standard keyboard's letter area.

Yes, buckling springs are wonderful - on a full-sized touch type keyboard. Heck, IBM's scissors on rubber dome springs were even pretty good - though not as good as the M.

However, keep in mind that the Pandora/Pyra is meant to be used with two thumbs - not 10 fingers. As my wife liked to say when I would use my Pandora, "The Keebler elves called. They want their laptop back."

If you're truly touch typing on these - good for you. Those are some mutant-like skinny fingers you have - but good for you. The primary use case still needs to be thumb typing - which means somewhat rounded tops and relatively short throws are OK.

 

[HelenF]

I mostly type with thumbs on the Pandora.

The D-Pad and action buttons are very good - is it the plastic caps or the travel distance or something else?
(OK, the D-Pad doesn't have a plastic cap? But the bit on the top doesn't bend much.)

 

[levi]

On Pandora, the d-pad and game buttons sit on top of circular rubber domes, like in most games controllers. The keyboard keys are part of the rubber mat though, and don't have independent caps, and are a different shape to the ones under the gaming buttons.

 

[HelenF]

So is the D-Pad rubber similar to the game button rubber, with another part stuck on top?

 

[levi]

Yes, the pads underneath the d-pad and game buttons look identical to me. The bottom of the d-pad pivot is glued to the base of the keymat though, so it's hard to see from above.

 

[HelenF]

Thanks, that makes sense. I think I saw it once, but must have not been looking for that.

 

[fusion_power]

For a collapsing dome mechanical keyboard, the Pandora was pretty good. Not great, but pretty good and good enough.

Any improvement for the Pyra is of course welcome.

I get the idea that some will not be happy unless it's built with Cherry mechanical switches and adds 2cm to the end height.

I once had an old Alcatel Cellphone with an interesting keyboard technic. Instead of rubber domes it had a metal plate with small metal domes that acted basicly as dome-spring-mechanism. The actual keys were still a rubber matt. The keys pressed the domes in the metal sheet down and so it made the contact for every key. The metal dome sheet was reflective and the lights were between the keys through little holes in the dome-plate. it worked compared well and it had a stiffer "smoth click" feeling than ordinary rubberdome keys.

 

[levi]

I've seen metal domes used on old Sinclair calculators and the likes. Usually though, the caps were held in place with a sheet of adhesive plastic, and the keys were suspended above using a frame. Very clicky and quite nasty to use, but maybe the Alcatel solution is better.

 

[rygD]

Well, we can always switch to dome caps with rubber keymats, which could improve the tactile feedback, but it would make clicky noises.

It's possible, we could offer upgrades later.
I'd like to test that at some time, but we didn't have the fundings for such tests for the first batch.

The keymat would be the same, but it would click on the domes instead of directly on the keys.

Sounds great. Maybe you can offer preorders to help fund it.

I still love my IBM keyboard M (nothing beats Buckling spring) and sent even a cherry with blue switches back after testing. My next keyboard would be an Unicomp.

This is how I feel, too. I am trying to assist someone in picking out a decent keyboard, but every time I mention an old model M or Unicomp I am reminded that they are "ugly" (because looks matter when you are typing, I guess).

Know what to expect when buying from Unicomp. Many people have complained about the overall finish, and about little issues with the case (some feel it is too squeaky, not an issue I have ever noticed while typing on mine, also there are some areas on some models that are showing the age of the molds). Also, I think I heard that the plate is thinner with the Unicomps than with old IBMs. I love mine, and really appreciate the custom versions they do (they somewhat recently added a Sun layout, and have had another Unix/Linux one for a while, in addition to all the usual regional and language specific layouts, plus Dvorak and such. Oh, and the super/windows keys). They keep claiming they are working on a new, smaller one. They mention it once in a while, but I don't know when it will be done or what layout it will have. I will probably pick it up when it is released, even though I don't really need it.