Is Ron Paul A Visionary Or A Nut Job?

[daclassicgamingmaster]

Eh? The US was founded on Godly beliefs. I don't know who told you we were secular...

In the words of someone cooler than myself:

"Treaty of Tripoli, bitch."

1796, approved by John Adams and confirmed by unanimous vote in the senate. Article 11: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

I don't care what that treaty says. I take American Literature and there are numerous accounts dating back to our formation, of us being one nation, under God. Nothing is officially recorded (like in the Declaration or Constitution), but it was pretty much accepted that we would be a predominantly Christian nation.

Check out Utopia, there are tons of crazy opinions and ideas in that book

Now excuse me while I clean out my bong

Uhh, I'm not a liberal hippie, but I did that last night

 

[gaterooze]

I don't care what that treaty says. I take American Literature and there are numerous accounts dating back to our formation, of us being one nation, under God.

Er... you do know that "under God" wasn't added to "one nation" in the pledge until 1954, right?

And that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin were Deists -- they believed in "a" God, and respected the teachings of Jesus, but didn't believe he was divine. Why do you think that Christianity was never once mentioned in the declaration of independence, or the constitution? That was very deliberate -- America was not formed as a Chirstian nation. A spiritual nation, sure, but *not* a Christian one.

Today (and at certain points in the country's history) their intentions have obviously been perverted into near-theocracy. But don't try to rewrite history when the actual facts are very clear.

 

[daclassicgamingmaster]

A spiritual nation, sure, but *not* a Christian one.

Perhaps there was a miscommunication here. I never said we were founded on Christian beliefs; I said we were founded on Godly ones. In the constitution, there is even a mention of a "creator".

We were, and will always be, a Christian nation, though. Not one specifically founded on those beliefs, but one that is surely predominantly Christian in faith and practice.

And yes, I know when "under god" was added to the pledge. I was just mentioning that because I felt that one nation, under God held true whether in the Pledge or otherwise.

 

[A_SN]

Yeah right, you guys can't talk about a republican without arguing about religion. And that sort of argument is so redundant, just look at the comments on Slashdot, you've got at least one of these at least everyday there.

That is mostly because the Republican party has been infiltrated and taken over by religious zealots. The Republican party has become "the party of God". Republicans also constantly use religion as a wedge issue to get support and votes. Since religious evangelism is so big with the Republicans, yes talking about Republicans leads to religion as it is a big part of their party.

You don't have to be a "liberal hippy", what ever that is supposed to be, to see that.

Sure, but you guys are still always sucked into those kinds of arguments, and somehow it prevents you from talking about the real political issues.

 

[gaterooze]

Sure, but you guys are still always sucked into those kinds of arguments, and somehow it prevents you from talking about the real political issues.

Unfortunately, the religious fervor of candidates *is* a real political issue. Witness "Pastor" Huckabee, who in the last few days has stated he wants to rewrite the consitution to reflect God's will, i.e. federally ban gay marriage and abortion.

Look at Bush's abstinence only sex education programs, or his veto of stem cell research -- these are important issues, and are decided primarily on religious grounds.

 

[A_SN]

Unfortunately, the religious fervor of candidates *is* a real political issue.

No doubt, but you guys are blowing it out of proportion by talking about it like 95% of the time you talk about republicans and such. Oh well that's probably far more important than health care, poverty, crime, drugs, death penalty, prison overcrowding, education, economy, taxes, immigration, employment, and all the rest of the meaningless stuff you guys hardly ever talk about.

 

[nickspoon]

No doubt, but you guys are blowing it out of proportion by talking about it like 95% of the time you talk about republicans and such. Oh well that's probably far more important than health care, poverty, crime, drugs, death penalty, prison overcrowding, education, economy, taxes, immigration, employment, and all the rest of the meaningless stuff you guys hardly ever talk about.

But can you see how the religion of the candidate would affect their policies on such things? After all, the Bible mentions the death penalty, crime, taxes, immigration, employment, etc. Do you really want a country governed by two-thousand-year-old authoritarian laws?

 

[fawny]

In the constitution, there is even a mention of a "creator".

Which article does the mention of a creator appear in ?

 

[daclassicgamingmaster]

In the constitution, there is even a mention of a "creator".

Which article does the mention of a creator appear in ?

Preamble, and like 1 other place (I forget where).

 

[fawny]

In the constitution, there is even a mention of a "creator".

Which article does the mention of a creator appear in ?

Preamble, and like 1 other place (I forget where).

QUOTE
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


No mention of any creators there.

Perhaps you are thinking that using the 'year of our Lord' somehow turns it into a religious document. To me, that would be akin to claiming that because you start a letter to the IRS with the address 'Dear sir' is evidence of your affection for the tax-man.

 

[daclassicgamingmaster]

In the constitution, there is even a mention of a "creator".

Which article does the mention of a creator appear in ?

Preamble, and like 1 other place (I forget where).

QUOTE
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


No mention of any creators there.

Perhaps you are thinking that using the 'year of our Lord' somehow turns it into a religious document. To me, that would be akin to claiming that because you start a letter to the IRS with the address 'Dear sir' is evidence of your affection for the tax-man.

No, I'm not. My history just sucks ass . Not in the preamble, nevermind. It's somewhere though . Maybe in the declaration of independence? Something about inalienable rights endowed by a creator. Also, there's a mention of a "Nature's God".

Forgive my lousy history, but a "creator" is mentioned in a couple places in american literature.

 

[Blah]

As for being put to death for working on the sabbath, the bible doesn't exactly say that, it's just the interpretation of some Rabbis. It does, oops.

Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

This includes: Cooking food on sabbath (Exo 16:25), seek out food in any way on the Sabbath (Exo 16:26), leave home on the Sabbath Exo(16:29), making a fire on the Sabbath (Exo 35:3).

The punishment for breaking these laws was stoning to death, as ordered by GOD in Numbers 15:32-36 and Exodus 31:14 and Exodus 35:2.

Numbers 15:32-36 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses."

It's pretty damn clear. Apparently you don't know your own holy book too well.



Exodus 20: 8-11 (my summary) It is indeed foremost to the children of God to remember and keep the sabbath. (I do)
Matthew 12:1-12 (my summary) Working toward the will of God does not violate the sabbath. By the Grace of the Holy Spirit we are forgiven anyway.

Somebody said something about slavery, so here goes:
Exodus 21:16 (my summary) If someone wants to be a servant, that's ok, but kidnapping people to be your slaves is punishable by death.

I have the same gripe about "confession". It's such a load of crapola. All I have to do is see some man with a collar and "God will forgive". Rubbish.

I often tell my American friends that. The weird thing is that they don't deny it. On top of that there is a horrible amount of contradiction in the Bible. It can't be the direct word of God. Have a look at this:
QUOTE
War or Peace?

The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
[EXO 15:3]

Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen
[ROM 15:33]

QUOTE
God be seen?

God is the god of everything.

[Exod. 24:9,10; Amos 9:1; Gen. 26:2; and John 14:9]

God CAN be seen:

"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts."
[Ex. 33:23]

"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend."
[Ex. 33:11]

"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
[Gen. 32:30]

God CANNOT be seen

"No man hath seen God at any time.
[John 1:18]

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live."
[Ex. 33:20]

"Whom no man hath seen nor can see"
[1 Tim. 6:16]


God can be seen inasmuch as the wind can be "seen", God can't be seen (while on this mortal Earth) inasmuch as the wind can't be seen.


QUOTE
CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE, and FEROCIOUS or KIND, MERCIFUL, and GOOD God:

"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy."
[Jer. 13:14]

Jer. 22: "And if you say in your heart, Why have these things come upon me? The answer is, Because of the greatness of your iniquity has your long robe been pulled aside and have you suffered violence"


"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."
[1 Samuel 15:3]

"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy."
[James 5:11]

"For his mercy endureth forever."
[1 Chron. 16:34]

"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (Ps. 145:9) "God is love."
[1 John 4:16]

God is slow in His anger and rich in His love. Those who work to anger Him, He will show his wrath, those who love Him, He will show his mercy.



QUOTE
Judas died how?

"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself."
[Matt. 27:5]

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out."
[Acts 1:18]

The list goes on and on... :rolleyes:

It doesn't matter how Judas died, both statements could be true (e.g. he hung himself, then fell from the tree, bowels gushing out).



When seen in context, these things are not necessarily contradictions. You can't always take statements out of context without changing their meaning.

 

[OMars]

When seen in context, these things are not necessarily contradictions. You can't always take statements out of context without changing their meaning.

So then, was it possible, still, that Judas could have hung himself and jumped from some structure?

I don't want to offend anyone, but there are grade school novels that have been edited in a better manner. On top of that the Bible was translated from a semitic language with no capital letters and, as far as I know, no punctuations ( from what I know about old Arabic, which is also semitic). When a person says that they are the "Son of God", this cannot be taken literally, because the word "son" shouldn't be capitalized. And, even more on top of that, there were dozens of revisions and versions of the "Bible" that we know today.

Again, this is not to offend anyone, but to simply add to my side of the issue.

 

[fawny]

there were dozens of revisions and versions of the "Bible" that we know today.

Contradictions in the Bible never seem to be admitted to by Christians. At least Moslems have a system called Naskh to determine which of side of the contradiction should be followed whenever the perfect word of Allah is less than perfect.

 

[mdinire]

there were dozens of revisions and versions of the "Bible" that we know today.

Contradictions in the Bible never seem to be admitted to by Christians. At least Moslems have a system called Naskh to determine which of side of the contradiction should be followed whenever the perfect word of Allah is less than perfect.


Actually, the New Testament is made up of four similar Gospels when it could of been much more. Most of these "contradictions" are in the Old Testament - blame Judaism.

Maybe this thread should be locked since it has got to a topic which will never end.

 

[LHC]

Maybe this thread should be locked since it has got to a topic which will never end.

Why would you do that? What would be the point?


Anybody that doesn't want to bother with this topic can stop posting/reading. Everyone else can continue. It's not like anybody is being forced to continue, and the topic is contained in one thread.

 

[DaveC]

Unfortunately, the religious fervor of candidates *is* a real political issue.

No doubt, but you guys are blowing it out of proportion by talking about it like 95% of the time you talk about republicans and such. Oh well that's probably far more important than health care, poverty, crime, drugs, death penalty, prison overcrowding, education, economy, taxes, immigration, employment, and all the rest of the meaningless stuff you guys hardly ever talk about.

That is because we already know the Republicans already fail at those things you mention. See: George Bush, Dick Cheney, Ronald Reagan, blah blah...

 

[mdinire]

Maybe this thread should be locked since it has got to a topic which will never end.

Why would you do that? What would be the point?


Anybody that doesn't want to bother with this topic can stop posting/reading. Everyone else can continue. It's not like anybody is being forced to continue, and the topic is contained in one thread.


Yeah I just thought it would be a waste of peoples time. Guess I'll ignore this thread unless I need to test my debating skills.

 

[fawny]

Yeah I just thought it would be a waste of peoples time. Guess I'll ignore this thread unless I need to test my debating skills.

It's very good of you to want to dictate to the rest of us how we should 'waste' our time. How would you describe yourself, a republican, a fundamentalist christian or a fundamentalist moslem ?