Is Pyra expensive outdated hardware?

[danielo515]

If you think that a high end phone will suit your needs then get it

Please stop using that argument. I do want a Pyra.

As for the "not future proofing" I think you are being a little unfair.

Maybe. Sorry about that. 

He could put the 2.4Ghz in the first few batches and if there's a demand for it over time and his funds increase he can, at any time after the batch of purchased chips is used up, switch to the 2.4+5ghz version.

Does that mean that I should wait for a "review" or that I should buy a new pyra to get the extra 5Ghz band? I mean, can the chip be upgraded without soldering? Or maybe I should change the entire board?

It's even got that USB3 port that doesn't actually work as a USB3 port, just in case a future SoC does have USB3.

 

Same question. Does that mean maybe a 20€ upgrade to my current Pyra or I will be forced to sell my pyra to buy the new revision?

You are firmly in the minority, suck it up and move on, don't complain and expect others to pay dozens of dollars for a feature they don't have any interest in.

I think that is exactly the opposite of what scene needs. If EvilDragon asks is because he wants the opinion of many. Otherwise he will say to all of us "suck it up and move on" 

 

[TrashyMG]

Does that mean that I should wait for a "review" or that I should buy a new pyra to get the extra 5Ghz band? I mean, can the chip be upgraded without soldering? Or maybe I should change the entire board?

Well 5Ghz Band is still up in the air until ED makes a decision... Upgrade without soldering? No, even with Soldering it's not likely something you would want to do. Changing the board is the best method, Like with the Pandora, EvilDragon will most likely offer upgrade options.

WizardStan, on 03 Aug 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

It's even got that USB3 port that doesn't actually work as a USB3 port, just in case a future SoC does have USB3.

 

Same question. Does that mean maybe a 20€ upgrade to my current Pyra or I will be forced to sell my pyra to buy the new revision?

The CPU board is replaceable, the point is you don't have to replace the entire Pyra to upgrade to the next version, however I doubt it will be only 20€ to upgrade though.


Well the Pyra will have a USB3 OTG port, but not a regular sized one.

 

[danielo515]

they're mind is obviously focused primarily on the power, all other details are secondary at best: a new phone has the #1 feature they're asking for, so why not get one?

That's not true. I am focused on functionality. I really like how windows phone and iOS really takes all the juice out of its hardware. As I said, I want other points of view that shows me that what I am saying has no sense. And I already got some of those.

Well, the thing is that you have to remember that there is the mirror image too. I'm happy that I won't have to say "I love my Pyra! I just wish it didn't have this useless stupid camera on it".

 

Since this can be true, I don't think many people will complain about having a camera.

At least straight away. Wait until there's a few out in the wild, you can quiz owners on what it runs, what it doesn't, and whether it suits your needs

That is a very good point. Hopefully I will not have to wait many months. It's just that I would also want to contribute to Pyra development with my money.

or maybe you'll know somebody in real life with one that you can test first

I don't think so

 

[bzar]

Since this can be true, I don't think many people will complain about having a camera.

People already have in some threads here when the possibility of a camera has been discussed.

 

[_wb_]

If you view the Pyra as a handheld gaming console then it is very powerful. Main competition here would be from the NVidia Shield like devices.

 
The Nvidia shield is the device I was thinking about when I wrote about PS2 and game cube emulation. I am not a hardware expert, so I will believe whatever you answer to this question: Is Pyra more powerful than PSVita? If so, then I'm totally fine with it. 

Yes, the Pyra will be more powerful than the PS Vita.

The Pyra has a Cortex-A15 cpu (2x), the PS Vita has a Cortex-A9 (4x, but only 3 cores are available).

The Cortex-A15 is quite a lot better than the Cortex-A9. The Cortex-A9 is barely better than the Cortex-A8 which is in the Pandora. The extra cores will help a bit, but in practice, single-core performance is still very often what counts.

Also the Pyra will have more and faster RAM, etc.

 

[moxie]

I think that is exactly the opposite of what scene needs. If EvilDragon asks is because he wants the opinion of many. Otherwise he will say to all of us "suck it up and move on" 

Well, the "scene" isn't exactly in great need of people writing the same "Oh, my good, the Pyra won't have as many megafrotz as a top-of-the-line smartphone, which means it will be OUTDATED"-posts again and again every three months either In particular, it is, as many has written, a  process of constant weighing of complexities and costs versus functionality and popularity. This process has been going on for quite some while, so if you want reasons for the decisions that has been made, you can scroll back through the forums. Suffice to say, none of the tradeoffs have been made lightly. Possibly this is why people tend to react with a certain agressiveness to this kind of post: It does somehow presuppose that the design decisions around the Pyra are somehow made without thinking. It sounds very much like "OMG, you, like, are making a mistake! Good luck for you all that I've been thinking about this and is here to help you by telling you what to do!". Which might ruffle a few feathers

The decision not have a camera has been extensively discussed, and you have seen the thread. You have, then, also seen the arguments against, which does indeed include a number of people who were very much against having a camera on the Pyra for privacy reasons, as well as not liking the extra cost or complexity. This means that you saying " I don't think many people will complain about having a camera." sounds a bit hollow.

The decision about the processor to be used and the choice of USB connector has also been extensively discussed. There are very good, very well-publicised reasons for these decisions. Jumping in a year later going "OMG, why don't you have a more powerful processor? And why not USB3? And why that connector - Have you not thought this through", again, sounds a bit 1) insulting to those who have thought this though, and 2) like you are a bit clueless  

And so on, and so forth. Start your threads with less of Mr knowitall, and you will get a more civilized response

 

[pmprog]

At least straight away. Wait until there's a few out in the wild, you can quiz owners on what it runs, what it doesn't, and whether it suits your needs

 That is a very good point. Hopefully I will not have to wait many months. It's just that I would also want to contribute to Pyra development with my money.

Some of the things you say are very interesting. For somebody who thinks it might be outdated, and not run whatever it is you'd like to run on it, you seem super keen to purchase one as soon as possible (despite in a different thread saying lack of a camera is a dealbreaker!?), and even donate to the development.
If you want to contribute to the development, donate on the links. If you're concerned that your donations will end up being wasted on a device you don't like, just buy something from ED's shop - his profits are probably heading into the Pyra, and you get something you probably want out the other side.

I'm not trying to say you're right or wrong on any aspect, I just find it a bit bewildering that you'd be so eager to rush into something you're clearly not sure about.

 

[elvissteinjr]

If you view the Pyra as a handheld gaming console then it is very powerful. Main competition here would be from the NVidia Shield like devices.

 The Nvidia shield is the device I was thinking about when I wrote about PS2 and game cube emulation. I am not a hardware expert, so I will believe whatever you answer to this question: Is Pyra more powerful than PSVita? If so, then I'm totally fine with it.

 Yes, the Pyra will be more powerful than the PS Vita.

The Pyra has a Cortex-A15 cpu (2x), the PS Vita has a Cortex-A9 (4x, but only 3 cores are available).

The Cortex-A15 is quite a lot better than the Cortex-A9. The Cortex-A9 is barely better than the Cortex-A8 which is in the Pandora. The extra cores will help a bit, but in practice, single-core performance is still very often what counts.

Also the Pyra will have more and faster RAM, etc.

With that being said, the Vita has a PowerVR SGX543MP4+ gpu, which is like literally one model number lower than the Pyra will have, but with 4 gpu cores instead of 2, so Vita graphics are almost twice as fast.

 

[moxie]

...not to mention that the teams writing software for the Vita generally are at least a hundred times bigger than the "teams" writing software for the Pyra will be. On the other hand, the general ecosystem of software already existing in almost-ready-to-run form for the Pyra will be a lot larger than the software ever available for the Vita. And so on. And so forth. What good is power without the right software? And that brings us, again, back to the right gadget for the right use, and the actually very valid response "If these things are the most important tings for you, maybe you're not looking for a Pyra, really". Or a Vita, as the case might be.

 

[Nintendo]

Let's not make anymore PS Vita comparisons here.


PS Vita is dead. DB Pyra is yet/going to be born.

 

[fusion_power]

Is Pyra expensive outdated hardware?

The short answer is: "It depends on when the Pyra will be finaly released."

 

[WizardStan]

Please stop using that argument. I do want a Pyra.

It's a general statement. I say the same to everyone who complains about it.

Does that mean that I should wait for a "review" or that I should buy a new pyra to get the extra 5Ghz band? I mean, can the chip be upgraded without soldering? Or maybe I should change the entire board?

It means that a +5Ghz version is not off the table just because he chooses only 2.4Ghz now. It cannot be upgraded, if you purchased now and the 5Ghz came along you'd have to sell yours used in order to get the new one but such is the risk of early adoption: you could buy it now and see a better version in 6 months, or you could wait forever in the hopes of a better version that never comes. ED may offer board upgrades, the expensive part is the CPU board so you'd just need to replace the mainboard, an upgrade that'd probably only cost about $50 by my reckoning but it's honestly not my place to estimate such things and I'll feel really bad if EvilDragon comes along and says it'll be 2-3 times that.

Same question. Does that mean maybe a 20€ upgrade to my current Pyra or I will be forced to sell my pyra to buy the new revision?

It'd be a CPU board upgrade. There's nothing that can be done for the current SoC, but a future one might have more USB3 ports to take advantage of it. You'd also be getting a better CPU and memory, but it would be an expensive upgrade.

I think that is exactly the opposite of what scene needs. If EvilDragon asks is because he wants the opinion of many. Otherwise he will say to all of us "suck it up and move on"

He did ask. He got the opinion of many. The opinions are still coming in and you are still in the minority. Suck it up, accept that there are some features you want that aren't going to happen. You aren't the only one who wanted a front facing camera and countless other features but we've accepted that not all features can happen, a line was drawn and ED threw features to one side or the other and that is that. I don't know what you're expecting. EvilDragon would never say "suck it up and move on", that's for us cranky old folks to say

That's not true. I am focused on functionality.

And yet you profess that it's outdated before it's out despite the fact that it'll be the only device (other than the Pandora) with its unique set of functionality, as if adding a camera would suddenly make it top of the line.

 

[rygD]

Yes, the Pyra is outdated expensive hardware.  So are most devices you can buy and compare it to.

I still regularly use video game and computer hardware that is 20 to 30+ years old and they work fine.  They may not be able to do what the newest products do, but they work fine.

I have been following the Pyra for some time now, and I see that things are going the same way, and what is even worse, community usually prefers a cheaper piece of hardware (usually less than 5$ difference) rather than a "future proof" component. Some examples about this are the lack of a camera, a wifi chip of 2.4Ghz instead of 5GHz and the use of micro-usb when we are already moving to usb-c. Answers like "buy an usb dongle" or "use an usb webcam" are so common that I am scared. Any smartphone in the range of 200 - 300€ has more brute force and better hardware than the Pyra will have. You can do almost anything with a cheap smartphone. They are even able to emulate PS2 or game cube, tasks that I seriously doubt the Pyra will be able to accomplish. 

You need to understand all sides of this.  If a component is $5 per unit when purchased in bulk it still has additional costs on top of that, plus a little more overhead just in case something goes wrong, and some "profit" which willl go toward manufacturing future units.  A small cost becomes a bigger cost immediately.  You are already concerned about cost, so how would you feel if the price doubled by including every little extra possible?  Also, don't compare apples to oranges by looking at something that will most likely be produced in the thousands on a small budget by a small group and expecting it to be like something produced by a large corporation that can throw millions at a device that will be produced in the millions (or more) and that has companies lining up to cut deals to get their components into the device.

If you feel the Pyra is not for you it isn't.

My CC Pandora works well for me.  I have the chance to play more games than I could complete in my lifetime.  The Pyra will increase my number of options.  Web browsing on the Pandora is not perfect, but neither is web browsing on my Android devices, and I often turn to either my Pandora or a typical computer due to the weaknesses of using a touch based browser (which crashes on me a couple times a day).  I can't do office type tasks from my Android devices as easily as I can from my Pandora or a laptop, and I have used my Pandora to complete papers for college assignments.  The most I have done on my smartphones is check assignments and grades, post in discussions, and use one as a demonstration for a cheap and disposable way to attack or capture data on a network, all things that the Pandora can be used for (usually better), and that the Pyra will be even more capable of.

 

[Butterkeks]

I think that - as already mentioned - the use is the most important thing.

I can not really think of a case where I could need a phone with extremely high tech-spechs, since I wouldn't know what to do with that power.

Surfing, watching videos, making calls, etc. don't make something like an 8-core CPU necessary.

Games, on the other hand, could need so much power, but playing games on a smartphone without buttons is nothing I'd like to do.

I doubt that there's a smartphone with 3 USB-ports and an hdmi-output, as well. Sure you can get external things like controllers,

keyboards and usb-hubs, but that would only increase the overall price and wouldn't be handy. At all.

 

[danielo515]

despite in a different thread saying lack of a camera is a dealbreaker

I did not  wanted to express that. My bad. I mean it would be a deal breaker in terms of video conference usability, meaning that I will not do video conference at all.

I just find it a bit bewildering that you'd be so eager to rush into something you're clearly not sure about.

 

Maybe I sound like I am not sure about it, but actually I am sure that I want a Pyra.

And why not USB3? And why that connector - Have you not thought this through", again, sounds a bit 1) insulting to those who have thought this though, and 2) like you are a bit clueless  

Sure I am clueless, that's why I have opened this thread: I want people to explain me why I am wrong. I have to admit that I have been a bit selfish on this, but I really wanted to know more about Pyra's hardware and real world usage. Maybe I did not asked in the best way. I tried to follow pyra development, to read some posts from time to time but it was very hard to me: all the threads were veeery long and so technical that I got lost almost all the times.

I know that the title of my post is not maybe the better, but it is what was worrying me the most. I did not wanted to sound pretentious or to express that you took the wrong decisions. If so, sorry about that. Maybe I should say: "Why the current Pyra hardware is the best we can use?"

 

[danielo515]

You'd also be getting a better CPU and memory, but it would be an expensive upgrade.

As soon as it keeps my Pyra useful and up to date, I'm fine with that.

If a component is $5 per unit when purchased in bulk it still has additional costs on top of that, plus a little more overhead just in case something goes wrong, and some "profit" which willl go toward manufacturing future units.

 
That is a fair point I did not though about it.

I have to say that one of the things I liked the most about the Pyra is that it should be easy to upgrade. If you think that the Pyra is the last "Pandora like" device I will have to buy for the next ten years thanks to this ability, then it is the perfect device for me.

 

[pmprog]

"Why the current Pyra hardware is the best we can use?"

Because it's higher spec'd than the Pandora, which is the only other device with the same feature set.
It's not higher spec'd than it is because of cost of components, availability from manufacturers of each component, and physical space limitations

 

[WizardStan]

Why the current Pyra hardware is the best we can use?

Because the OMAP5 is literally the best thing ED could get, no one else is willing to sell him what he needs in the quantities he needs, except Intel and there's good reasons to avoid an x86 SoC at the moment.

 

[bzar]

...and some of the other alternatives had even less linux support.

 

[kuru]

800x600 screen resolution

Wut