Is A Keyboard Necessary?

[Gaeryc]

Keyboard makes this ultra portable computer with gaming controls, so hell yeah!
Now someone just has to solve the mystery of where to map the ä and ö because I really cannot write finnish without them

 

[avik]

I'm wondering where we draw the line between a mobile entertainment platform and a laptop. One of the interesting aspects of the GP2X was that it wasn't as powerful as a laptop. Otherwise, it would be a laptop.

What about the Pandora? Is it going to be a laptop or a homebrew/gaming platform? If it's the former, what's the advantage over just a laptop?

 

[Mr B]

Avik, as it turns out, it's a laptop PDA, with a not so great gamepad built in. At least, thats what it is right now. I've in numerous threads expressed a hope for a version without the keyboard, but i have very little hope for it. That means i wont be getting this.
If i wanted a laptop, I'd get a real laptop, and compared to this, its a world of difference. If i wanted a PDA with touchscreen, I'd get a PDA. There is a reason pretty much every PDA has its screen facing out, regardless of if it has a keyboard or not. If i wanted a portable gaming console that would also play most my vids, and mp3's, I'd get a GP2X F-200, and this heap of junk that currently is the Pandora, sadly, doesn't hit the spot for me, in any category.
B!

 

[Yrx]

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Avik, as it turns out, it's a laptop PDA, with a not so great gamepad built in. At least, thats what it is right now. I've in numerous threads expressed a hope for a version without the keyboard, but i have very little hope for it. That means i wont be getting this.
If i wanted a laptop, I'd get a real laptop, and compared to this, its a world of difference. If i wanted a PDA with touchscreen, I'd get a PDA. There is a reason pretty much every PDA has its screen facing out, regardless of if it has a keyboard or not. If i wanted a portable gaming console that would also play most my vids, and mp3's, I'd get a GP2X F-200, and this heap of junk that currently is the Pandora, sadly, doesn't hit the spot for me, in any category.
B!

I do like how you're saying the gamepad isn't good, especially considering that you haven't held it in your hands. Wait to try it yourself (or at least some reviews) before making that judgement. The keyboard won't likely get in the way, so consider it a bonus, if you will. Because leaving t out wouldn't drop the cost very much at all.

Also, I personally don't consider Pandora a "heap of junk," but that's probably because I'm looking forwardto fullspeed PSX, possible N64, crazy potential for homebrew and porting, an extended battery life, a proper d pad, a bigger screen, improved sound, and an overall huge potential of uses.

And I might as well say that it's kind of stupid to try and call something a laptop that's smaller than a PSP. lol

 

[Mr B]

Yrx, it's not like its the first time that i comment on the gamepad part, it simply doesn't work. Ok, I'm no longer a kid, so i have fullgrown hands. They might even be a bit larger then average, but they are no where near the size of frying pans. Still, there is no way i can play using the analog sticks, and go to the X or B buttons, without changing grip, and not wear the thumbs joints in a unhealthy way, making me see the doc a few weeks later, for a all new sickness. Tennis elbow syndrome, in the thumb.

And i agree, making a laptop, thats smaller then the PSP, is stupid. Yet, this is what the Panda is trying to be. It tries so hard to please so many, it ends up failing what it supposedly was made to do.
B!

 

[Yrx]

Yrx, it's not like its the first time that i comment on the gamepad part, it simply doesn't work. Ok, I'm no longer a kid, so i have fullgrown hands. They might even be a bit larger then average, but they are no where near the size of frying pans. Still, there is no way i can play using the analog sticks, and go to the X or B buttons, without changing grip, and not wear the thumbs joints in a unhealthy way, making me see the doc a few weeks later, for a all new sickness. Tennis elbow syndrome, in the thumb.

And i agree, making a laptop, thats smaller then the PSP, is stupid. Yet, this is what the Panda is trying to be. It tries so hard to please so many, it ends up failing what it supposedly was made to do.
B!

I think you already KNOW that you're claiming I said something which I didn't, so I'm not going to argue with that.

And like I said, TRY the controls before you rip on them. Unless you're not telling us something, you haven't exactly spent a minute of time actually using them. prairiefire made that mockup, and he says that the control layout works very well. The system isn't going to be BIG enough to have to drastically change anything.

 

[lubidog]

Yrx, it's not like its the first time that i comment on the gamepad part, it simply doesn't work.

But have you actually had one of these things in your hand, or are you just shouting facts that you simply don't know?

 

[Tobriand]

If i wanted a PDA with touchscreen, I'd get a PDA. There is a reason pretty much every PDA has its screen facing out, regardless of if it has a keyboard or not.

Actually, you're right, there is.

It's because Palm had theirs facing out and they were more popular than Psions. Copying a popular design is a surefire way to get into the same market. It doesn't mean that that design is the best, just that it has, so far, been the most successful.

In addition, it's possible that, whilst the Psion design was brilliant (and imo better than the typical modern PDA), there was careful engineering to get everything to fit inside. And that was, almost certainly, patented by them. And therefore not as copyable as a brick design, a brick hardly being non-obvious!

 

[Mr B]

Yrx:
you said: And I might as well say that it's kind of stupid to try and call something a laptop that's smaller than a PSP.

I went: And i agree, making a laptop, thats smaller then the PSP, is stupid. Yet, this is what the Panda is trying to be. It tries so hard to please so many, it ends up failing what it supposedly was made to do.

And you again responded: I think you already KNOW that you're claiming I said something which I didn't, so I'm not going to argue with that.
---

You don't agree when i take your words, and use them as an argument against what you intended them to defend. I'm so surprised. But the consumer will compare it to other items depending on what it has for capabilities. With PDA capabilities it gets compared to PDA's and with laptop, against laptops. Wifi, 3d gfx, keyboard, web browser, media player, gaming controller, the list could go on. Its hardware is by far passing a PDA, so it's going to be compared to laptops. Thats an impossible target.

PDA's will also beat it hands down in the consumers eye, due to lack of the PDA manufacturers huge marketing machine, and years of development of software custom made for the PDA. The PDA buyer is buying what he gets in the store, and wants to use it out of the box. He doesn't want to go home, and try and find software that will fill his needs as he gets home.

lubidog:
And, no, i haven't had the device in my hands, but i did some comparisons, and they are posted in threads around here. If you don't remember reading them, you might want to. Try searching. And, ask your self something. Have you held it in your hands, can you say that you think it felt good? Or, is the conviction that its a great layout, which just happened to be overlooked by all major gamepad manufacturers coming from what you want it to be, instead of reasoning, and logic?
I to want it to be "all that" which is why i rather be overly critical now, then saying "yeah, i kinda suspected" later.

Tobriand:
It has NOTHING to do that with the fact that using the device as a handheld paiper and pen, moving around is a lot easier then starting to fold it up, end up with a bigger (and heavier) unit. Palm did make a choice on there design for a reason to you know. But if mimicking Palm is all everyone did, how come now, more then 10 years later, pretty much all successful PDA's is still the same type, and the clamshell keyboard versions are rare, and never a big seller?

Something is messing up quotes, or i would quoted, but...
B!

 

[lubidog]

Didn't realise that you were so important that I had to actually search for all your posts, Mr B

Anyway, the point is this-the people who are making this thing will have had prototypes in their hands. Now I know that we are all here to discuss and shape this thing, and that we all have the right to give our opinions. But to actually state that the thing won't work when you haven't had it in your hands is wrong. And how is this been overlooked? It seems very similar to a DS, which is doing rather well!

In my honest opinion, the ergonomics of the thing look fine to me. And Prariefire who made a real mock-up stated that the keys and controls feel natural and okay. As long as the balance between the screen and the keyboard is okay...

We can give our views, but the time has to come when we just have to trust the people who are putting money into this. We have to give our thoughts, but we also have to trust! A keyboard is overwhelmingly wanted so it will have a keyboard! And to have a keyboard and to have the controls that we have decided on, by a majority of opinion on these boards decisions will have to be made!

 

[Yrx]

I never said it was TRYING to be a laptop. I said that anything so small can't even be called a laptop at all. You're claiming I said the exact opoosite thing I was saying!

 

[Mr B]

Didn't realise that you were so important that I had to actually search for all your posts, Mr B
Didn't actually said you had to, just told you that if you were interested enough, you could look it up.

But to actually state that the thing won't work when you haven't had it in your hands is wrong. And how is this been overlooked? It seems very similar to a DS, which is doing rather well!

In my honest opinion, the ergonomics of the thing look fine to me. And Prariefire who made a real mock-up stated that the keys and controls feel natural and okay. As long as the balance between the screen and the keyboard is okay...
Odd.. you saw the mookup prairiefire made, but you didn't see the complaints that it looked pretty much as with a DS, which just happend to a bad thing? Even Yrx said he thought it was a bad thing, and that there could be reason for moving the d-pad and the ABYX buttons closer to the center.

We can give our views, but the time has to come when we just have to trust the people who are putting money into this. We have to give our thoughts, but we also have to trust! A keyboard is overwhelmingly wanted so it will have a keyboard! And to have a keyboard and to have the controls that we have decided on, by a majority of opinion on these boards decisions will have to be made!
I think your missing the point. I actually want a keyboard, but i want one that works properly. This, wont do it for me. It's way to crippled. (And small.) Combine that with the not so great placement of the gamepad parts, and its better to remove/redesign it. As I've been promoting all over, make a keyboard that clips on, with the exact same size, and give it a USB cable. I'll get one of those soft keyboards you roll up and put away, if it's sold without a keyboard at all. Fullsize, doesn't break, takes virtually no space when stored. Not telling the designers this, even if you don't agree, would be rather mean, especially when / if sales are limited to those that voted "where can i preorder." And, i have to admit, if the sales are cramped by this design, i do want to be able to say "see, i told ya - should have listened."

And, again, i sure hope they make a 2 model version. one with, and one without the keyboard, but otherways with identical hardware. Software that has to use a keyboard, gets a regular USB one by the user, and the developers never need to take special care for those not having a onboard keyboard due to the inclusion of a simple onscreen keyboard.
B!

 

[b._.o._.b]

But if mimicking Palm is all everyone did, how come now, more then 10 years later, pretty much all successful PDA's is still the same type, and the clamshell keyboard versions are rare, and never a big seller?

Palm did something new and made it fairly cheap and for its purpose very practicle.
We don't want a palm, we want "everything" in a small package. Gaming, PDA functionality, occasional typing, internet. There has never been anything like this before so you can't compare it with anything else.
Keyword is 'choice'. This could become a huge hit. I am only afraid some multinational like Microsoft or Sony will steal (or already stole) this concept and make something like this sooner and better looking.

From what I've read you are looking for a PSP-2.

 

[Mr B]

I never said it was TRYING to be a laptop. I said that anything so small can't even be called a laptop at all. You're claiming I said the exact opoosite thing I was saying!

Nope. Read again, here, I'll help.

And i agree, making a laptop, thats smaller then the PSP, is stupid. Yet, this is what the Panda is trying to be. It tries so hard to please so many, it ends up failing what it supposedly was made to do.
See? I clearly state that it's trying to be a laptop, not you. I haven't ever said you claimed it to be a laptop. Your going to argue "but this isn't a laptop" and you sure are free to, but you could save your breath. Lets face it, where is it going to be publicly promoted? Computer, and PDA magazines, and shows. How will it be promoted? Well, as "a gaming console, but with so much more capabilities. It's just as good as a laptop, but you can put it in your pocket, and game on it!" The argument however fails. It doesn't matter how hard you want to scream "but thats not why the keyboard is there." Actually, the only truly good argument I've heard for having the keyboard over a button that pulls up a onscreen one, is being able to develop software on the unit, for the unit. And, last time i checked, development for pretty much everything, was made on computers. A computer you can easily carry around, is a laptop. No?
B!

Palm did something new and made it fairly cheap and for its purpose very practicle.
We don't want a palm, we want "everything" in a small package. Gaming, PDA functionality, occasional typing, internet. There has never been anything like this before so you can't compare it with anything else.
Keyword is 'choice'. This could become a huge hit. I am only afraid some multinational like Microsoft or Sony will steal (or already stole) this concept and make something like this sooner and better looking.
You got a point. You really do. But for it to do "everything" it needs a full set of keys on the keyboard. And, as a PDA, it needs to have a good working configuration, for that to. We already agreed that was with the screen on the outside, preferably by fold-over, or swirvel then, for practical reasons. But one kinda has to make up his, or her mind. Either you make a good laptop device, with the benefits of gaming built in, and then you sacrifice none of the laptop features, and make a "good enough" gaming device. Or you make a good gaming device, that can do the other things a wee bit less good. Great gaming controls, and a bit not so great everything else controls. This falls in the gap between. My fear is that this will be the first device that craps out, and some other player take the concept, and runs with it, hitting it big time.

From what I've read you are looking for a PSP-2.

No, actually, i want a more powerful GP2X F-200. Something i can go around with, playing games as a sexcrazed maniac hunts tail. When i need it to be more advanced, i plug it to a bigger screen, hook a keyboard to it, and use the touchscreen as a trackpad. I need it to have Wifi for a load of reasons, both gaming, and "more powerful" reasons as Internet.
B!

 

[lubidog]

Sorry, the people are speaking, they don't want to 'hook a keyboard to it', they want the keyboard to it!

For what Mr B wants, I think b_o_b has it right-wait for the psp 2. This is gonna be something else. A smaller eeepc thingy.

For me it looks great. I think the design will work and I trust the people behind this to make it ergonomically usable! I've been on these boards a while, and I really trust Craig to make something that will appeal to the masses. Once this is released, one bad review saying it is hard to play, hard to type or hard to poke with a stylus, and the thing is doomed. The DS is NOT hard to hold or play with, or it wouldn't be selling as it does.

Again, discussion is great. But this is gonna have a keyboard, just depends how that is implemented. I assume that the people who have voted for want a permanent hard wired one, and not one that rattles at the bottom of your bag, waiting for a usb connection, and then balanced on your lap while you try to type etc.

And the clam shell design is the way to go, I think. The DS works well with it-protects the thing etc.

Nope, I am happy with what I am seeing and the comments of the people on board. There are lots of things to discuss, and lots of people making great comments. But some things just have to be finished with-the keyboard is wanted and will be!

 

[craigix]

We obviously did not pluck this design out of the air, it is the evolution of several designs, if you would just make a mockup and try it is very similar to the DS, and the DS is doing rather well.

In jan we will be able to post videos of the real cases being used.

 

[Tobriand]

Incidentally, I had my flyer arrive in the post today, and the keyboard is not too small to touch-type on, even if you're using both hands. I tend to end up using my index and middle fingers, and my wpm rate goes from ~70 (on a PC keyboard) to ~30 estimated on the Pandora, which is very respectable for something that size. It feels as though it will be very similar to type on to a Psion, really...

 

[Mr B]

Sorry, the people are speaking, they don't want to 'hook a keyboard to it', they want the keyboard to it!
Right.... You probably overlooked this, but pretty much everyone wants to add this, or that key, not being satisfied with the current keyboard. If you can't provide a keyboard that at least please most users, don't even try. Most users, will buy this and only rarely use the keyboard, and for those the current keyboard would probably be more then enough.

For what Mr B wants, I think b_o_b has it right-wait for the psp 2. This is gonna be something else. A smaller eeepc thingy.
Yeah, just what i need. Sony's BS. Thought i made this clear allready. I want a GP2X F-200 with more power. If i cant get that, I'll just keep using a laptop, or compromise on power, and get the GP2X F-200

For me it looks great. I think the design will work and I trust the people behind this to make it ergonomically usable!
Looking at the renderings there seam to be little room for mistakes. It's been designed to be a brick. (So much for un-brickable) Compare the NES/Master system gamepads to a SNES/PSX game pad, and see which is more comfortable. Yes, this is a handheld, and some sacrifices have to be made, but from the looks of things there haven't been much consideration to anything but getting the stuff to fit together, and looks. As with all designed products where look is important, you either like it, or you don't.

Again, discussion is great. But this is gonna have a keyboard, just depends how that is implemented.
Ugh... And the implementation part is whats been argued about.

And the clam shell design is the way to go, I think. The DS works well with it-protects the thing etc.
I don't think anyone argued that a clamshell was a bad thing in its self, not being able to get the screen on the outside, is. Not being able to turn it on the side and play games have been mentioned as another. Things, that if it was wanted, could be fixed. Easy.

We obviously did not pluck this design out of the air, it is the evolution of several designs, if you would just make a mockup and try it is very similar to the DS, and the DS is doing rather well.

In jan we will be able to post videos of the real cases being used.
I'm actually going to be quite rude here, and i hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me. A while back we got info like "It's not going to be a clamshell" "It's going to be possible to turn it to the side, and play games that way" from people who claimed to be involved in development. That kinda implicates that development of the case haven't exactly been a long and well planed process, with design decisions worked over numerous times. I'm happy your confident in the design, coz, as I've been saying, i ain't. And, by the time you made casings, its going to be a bit late to change the design, adding to costs. Thats why most the time you work with clay, or foam models first. But you knew that. Again, i sure hope you can forgive my rudeness.
B!

 

[craigix]

In jan we will be able to post videos of the real cases being used.

I'm actually going to be quite rude here, and i hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me. A while back we got info like "It's not going to be a clamshell" "It's going to be possible to turn it to the side, and play games that way" from people who claimed to be involved in development.
B!
[/quote]


Where? It's always been a clamshell. I can post mockups from March if you like.

 

[Patch]

[/quote]

Where? It's always been a clamshell. I can post mockups from March if you like.
[/quote]

It's a shame you didn't just tell everybody you had decided on a clamshell at that point as opposed to asking for design plans and ideas.

Had I known the basic design months ago, myself and many more would probably be happy with the design and not dissappointed because our design hopes have been dashed. (For me the only thing I'm pissed off about is that DS or PC type controls are now out of the question for FPS games).