iCP2: They're throwing in the towel.

[WizardStan]

I can show you pictures of 100 finished PCBs (fully assembled) and could organize pictures of the parts and the bare PCBs.

If those PCBs can actually do anything you might try auctioning them off. Even without a case I know I want to get my hands on one.

 

[vcoleiro1]

^ Join the queue

 

[_wb_]

Link: don't lose sleep over this, just try your best to fix the mess even if you didn't create it. Not more you can do than try your best.

Lesson learned: don't ever, ever trust Craig again. It sucks that we had to learn it the hard way, even though there were some warning signs in advance.

Good luck!

 

[ramboky]

Link - Please read the comments section of the Kickstarter. People are getting pretty pissed at your silence and utter refusal to address any questions. At least three are now taking legal action against you. Try engaging in an actual dialog with the backers and you'll find them much more tolerant of the situation. It's all anyone has wanted from this damn project all along. Ignore them and you may get burnt from both sides. 

We all know this situation isn't your fault but you're not doing yourself any favors.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

Christ. Pursuing legal action for what? Sixty dollars?


Utterly absurd.


Nothing will come of it as kickstarter is a grey area.

 

[rl7298]

"Craig screwed me over and I don't know how to pick up the pieces"

I think the only thing I would change here is the word "me", to us.  As per the pieces, well, I'm doing the best I can. 

No, you. There is no "US" in this regard. You created the LLC, you put your name on it. Do you understand what this entails? Legally, you are responsible. Craig has no legal responsibility, unless you entered into a binding contract with him on your own. He knows this and he screwed you over. You and your company have the ability to pursue legal actions against Craig. Me as a backer paid money to you to purchase an icontrolpad2. You may be sending my money to the UK to have the item built, but I'm not responsible for the actions of people you entered into an agreement with. I also do not need to pursue those you entered into an agreement with. That's your job. A job that unless you post proof on Kickstarter and actually start speaking to your project backers, are not currently accomplishing. Sure Craig was the face of the project since the beginning, but legally your name is on that LLC. Craig may be the root of your problems, but I can't pursue Craig, I can only pursue you.

You can throw every excuse out into the wind: it's hard, you're busy, it's a crapstorm on your end, Craig is a liar, it doesn't matter. I entered into an agreement with you by paying you money for an icontrolpad2 device and becoming a backer. You have plenty of people who have worked with you in the past on this forum, but you have exponentially more people over on Kickstarter that don't know who the heck you are except the person who took their money and provided no product. Until you start dealing with that on a regular basis, this isn't going to get any easier.

Please post over on Kickstarter. Nothing is being accomplished by us talking over here.

 

[rl7298]

EvilDragon, you must feel like you're caught between a rock and a hard place. I can only assume the other programmers/builders have the same issue. My beef isn't with you or them but with Link and Craig. I really hope Pyra turns out to be a great device and it can stand on it's own, without the influences of this project and past Craig projects.

Christ. Pursuing legal action for what? Sixty dollars?
Utterly absurd.

Nothing will come of it as kickstarter is a grey area.

Everything is a grey area until it's not. There's a first time for everything.

 

[_wb_]

What exactly do KickStarter backers like you and me do when they back a proposal? I'm pretty sure that it is legally not a purchase of a product, but rather a risky investment with a promise to get some reward if all goes to plan.

If you want to be sure to get the product you pay for, go to a mall and buy something there.

 

[Drammurt]

Christ. Pursuing legal action for what? Sixty dollars?


Utterly absurd.


Nothing will come of it as kickstarter is a grey area.

60 dollars? I think that's a typo.. we're talking about $ 204,045 dollar. Maybe you think it's ok for a company to gather over 0.2 million dollar and give nothing in return, for many people this is just theft, fraud, a scam or whatever you want to call it. And Kickstarter being a grey area? That may be your opinion, but until now all court cases were pretty clear in it: kickstarter-projects are exactly the same as a pre-order at a store. These precedents don't leave much room for speculation.  

What exactly do KickStarter backers like you and me do when they back a proposal? I'm pretty sure that it is legally not a purchase of a product, but rather a risky investment with a promise to get some reward if all goes to plan.

If you want to be sure to get the product you pay for, go to a mall and buy something there.

Legally, it's not a purchase but a pre-order of a product. And like every pre-order: if the company can't deliver, it should fully refund your money. For a company it's a risky way of gathering money, because instead of one or a few investors that you have to keep satisfied and that can be asked for additional funds, the company now has to deal with a whole crowd of customers. So, backing a kickstarter-project is not an investment, but a pre-order and indeed you are not sure if you get the exact product you pay for.

 

[SNESFAN]

I think people really confuse kick starter with a store to preorder hardware. The whole freaking idea of kick starter is to donate money to make dreams into reality. If the quoted end amount of money is not enough, or the dream ends up failing or both, its a bad investment. Money is lost, why try to get blood from a turnip? At the point of no return where they figure out the remainder of the money they ask for is not enough to finish the dream, they pull the plug and try to refund what's left. That seems like what is going on. Why do you feel the rest of the money is owed? Part of the burden of failure lies on you as an investor. You gambled, you lost, so did I. Better research should be done on both our parts in the future with our money before handing it over to an idea. If money can be salvaged from the ruin, great, if it can't, then fine, that's what you signed up for.

 

[comradekingu]

I think the lack of transparancy is what riles people. For no fault of their own people backed a project and were served direct lies and fraudulent service by craig. That is not an acceptible downfall, and nothing seperates it from what people consider to be illegal practice. Thats a huge difference.

Its just as much sympathy as it is risk, of which the founders need both from backers. The lack of reward in this case isnt replaced with sympathy, and thats a huge difference to how kickstarter works. You cant tug one end of the line and say this is how it is, when other things are not as they should be.

If people do their research based on lies made by the seller then all bets are off.

 

[Jumpman]

I think people really confuse kick starter with a store to preorder hardware. The whole freaking idea of kick starter is to donate money to make dreams into reality. If the quoted end amount of money is not enough, or the dream ends up failing or both, its a bad investment. Money is lost, why try to get blood from a turnip? At the point of no return where they figure out the remainder of the money they ask for is not enough to finish the dream, they pull the plug and try to refund what's left. That seems like what is going on. Why do you feel the rest of the money is owed? Part of the burden of failure lies on you as an investor. You gambled, you lost, so did I. Better research should be done on both our parts in the future with our money before handing it over to an idea. If money can be salvaged from the ruin, great, if it can't, then fine, that's what you signed up for.

Yeah, I think some of the guys around here must be "retarded"(I don't mean to be rude to anyone), but do we all understand the difference between "purchase" and "investment"? If this was a "purchase" that you didn't receive, you could go to your CC company and state you never received your purchase, and more than likely, you would get a refund. Since this was in no way a purchase, they will not reimburse your investment funds.

I really can't believe we are still having the same arguments around here that we where having when the cancellation first came along. It's OVER people, move along. I agree with Khan, "legal action for 60 bucks"? Really? I invested at the highest tier, and I would have to be drunk, high or both to even consider some course of legal action in this matter. As stated by SNESFAN, I gambled and lost, why should I be bale to take legal action?

IF YOU CAN"T AFFORD TO LOSE, DO NOT GAMBLE! My father taught me this as a child, and it has served me well my entire life. If a child of my limited intelligence could understand this, there is no reason grown adults who have seen all the ills of this world should not.

Chris

 

[Exophase]

Legally, it's not a purchase but a pre-order of a product. And like every pre-order: if the company can't deliver, it should fully refund your money. For a company it's a risky way of gathering money, because instead of one or a few investors that you have to keep satisfied and that can be asked for additional funds, the company now has to deal with a whole crowd of customers. So, backing a kickstarter-project is not an investment, but a pre-order and indeed you are not sure if you get the exact product you pay for.

What you're talking about is totally incompatible with the idea of crowd funding. If you're manufacturing something and factors - often outside of your control - cause the necessary funds to grossly exceed what you have only after you've spent some, most, or all of it you simply can't give a full refund. If this happens, stamping your feet and telling the project they're legally required anyway won't accomplish anything and pursuing it in court will probably just bankrupt them. If these small companies with little money (which is the majority of what makes up KS projects) had enough to guarantee everyone could get their funds back if the worst happens there'd be no need for them to use crowdfunding instead of conventional pre-orders. You take on extra risk to get more niche and innovative products.

I don't see what makes it legally equivalent to a pre-order either. Kickstarter has emphasized over and over again that it isn't one. That doesn't mean that iCP2 isn't violating their terms or acting in bad faith, I'm sure you could get the court to pry what money they have (if any) out of their corporate accounts and burn down their companies (which are LLCs, and which will probably leave the person running the company without much personal financial damage), if that's what you want to invest your time in money towards just so you can say you didn't let someone rip you off then have at it I guess.

What I see happening is that the few people who formally filed lawsuits will get refunds, then their court case will fall apart. Since the cost of filing a lawsuit is comparable to the cost of a refund, and since the added cost to going to court is even worse (I don't know about you guys but I'm not missing a day of work to get $70) I doubt many people will bother filing a lawsuit. If Link needs a few hundred dollars to get you guys off his back I'll give it to him myself because I like the way you're treating him even less than I like his level of attention he's giving his backers, especially you Drammurt, having the nerve to do all this after your little Craig impersonation letter that I hope lands you a counter-suit. I know there's some lawyer who bankrupted a project anyway, but it's hard to see what actual legal standing you have once you've gotten your money back. The real danger is if anyone forms an actual class action lawsuit, but it doesn't look like that's happening - and it probably won't because the payout to the lawyer organizing it wouldn't be worth it. Maybe if the people who funded several hundred dollars got together they could put pressure on their own, but most of those people seem to be community members here who aren't as impersonal as you guys are.

 

[Drammurt]

Where on the Kickstarter-site did anyone see that backers donate money to Project Creators or invest money into a company? Nowhere! Kickstarter is not a gamble. You either get your reward or you get a refund. Kickstarter is not a pre-order, but the bounding agreement between the creator and the backer is. Notice the difference? Some people here mix up their own perception with the facts and are very vocal about their opinion. The TOS of Kickstarter are pretty clear.

You shall not take any action, or Submit Content, that:

• you know is false, misleading, or inaccurate;
  
• is unlawful, deceptive, fraudulent;

By backing or creating a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you agree to be bound by this entire Agreement, including the following terms:

• Project Creators agree to make a good faith attempt to fulfill each reward by its Estimated Delivery Date.
  
• A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.
• Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

For some of the backers it's ok if Mark Linkhorst can get away with this $200k+ scam, for some it isn't and they want their money back or they just want justice to be done. I respect any of those choices. IMHO, there's no reason to call people retarded if they want to go to the Small Claims Court. It's their right to do so. 

It's sad to see how many people are saying I'm going to court with this case. Did I ever say I was going to? Nope. However, I know where I stand from a legal point of view and it's doubtful if a CEO can get away with this by liquidating the LLC. And Exophase, I have given Mark Linkhorst the chance to refund me and I promised I would never interfere with this Kickstarter again. Maybe you didn't notice I have been away from the Kickstarter-site and these boards for a few months? If Link would have refunded me before march 1st I wouldn't be here. I wasn't surprised, he promised me in june to refund me, but that was another false promise. Go ahead and give him the money if you trust him. He has my PayPal account for the refund.

 

[_wb_]

We would all appreciate a refund that comes as close to what we paid as possible. You seem to think that by making a lot of noise and insults you will get a bigger or faster refund than the rest of us. I hope you're wrong.

 

[comradekingu]

You getting your 60 just means someone else gets less than their fair share of whatever is below 60 at this point. 

Since the project went live kickstarter has changed their policy. Also im pretty sure things _within_ your control is how scam is seperated from risk.

Selling to someone anything on a false premise invalidates kickstarter insofar as thats illegal by law, which is what matters.

As with the postal service, before the goods are delivered, they still belong to the sender.

I should think all funds raised still belong to the funders, which means at the _very least_ they deserve to know what happened to it. When that happens we can discuss matters. It wasnt disclosed in the past, as it happened, albeit promised.

That is not ok, kickstarter or no kickstarter.

 

[EvilDragon]

True, and then we're back at their beginning.

The only one who knows what happened with the majority of the money is Craig. And he does not read anything here nor does he reply to anyone.

I can only tell what happened with part of the money (about 50,000) as that was what I got for the PCB production.

 

[WizardStan]

Where on the Kickstarter-site did anyone see that backers donate money to Project Creators or invest money into a company?

So because it wasn't explicitly stated, the laws that govern basic mathematics no longer apply. Understood.

 

[Klumpen]

You all invested in the wrong horse. Deal with it.

(Yes, it was an investment, you didn't buy anything.)

Good luck to Link finding a way to get the stolen money back from Mr. Fuckface.

 

[comradekingu]

I think its more interesting to see what becomes of the debackle following an unsuccessful kickstarter than the results of a successful one. The last word hasnt been said yet.