How Can An Amateur Get Started?

[sabrecheeky]

Hello!

I am frustrated and irritated!

I am going to get a pandora through the post at some point between today and 2015 (estimates vary) and have always wanted to write a game for it since ordering it. I am an amateur computer user, know my way around but no professional training. I am also quite old.

I have written games in the past for my Spectrum and Amiga - and to do this you needed just a few things; A graphics package for creating sprites/tiles and a programming language. Perhaps an audio editor/mixer too, and often a map editor.

I believe nowadays this is called a 'tool chain' and the computer it is on is called an 'integrated development environment'. I am learning some things!

In the past this has been simple. I used Basic with a bit of assembler on my Spectrum, and Blitz Basic on my Amiga. It has occurred to me that Basic and Linux do not mix, some snob value going on apparently... so have been messing about with python and pygame. At the end of the day, you just need logic and flow functions and the ability to blit from one image to another to make any 2D game. I don't find Python is as nice to use some of the Basics I have used but never mind - beggars and choosers and all that.

Now sprite editing and map making. I have hunted the internet expecting to find hundreds of solutions to this, and it is a nightmare. Nothing seems to be anywhere near as simple and intuitive as good old DPaint on my miggy, and there were lots of good map editors that exported nice simple binary files. I really do think that the best bet would be for me to sort out E-UAE on my computer again and use these old programs, but surely in the last twenty years someone has come up with similar and better packages?!?

Lots of people on forums say to use GIMP. GIMP is many things, but simple it is not. I messed with it for half an hour and still couldn't work out how to set up an alpha layer, or to mark a bitmap into simple 32x32 squares for tile making.

Does anyone have any tips for simple, straight forward tile/sprite and map editors and other tool chain stuff? I am using a..., sorry..., my IDE is running under Ubuntu 10.04. I know how to install things but not how to compile them... not worked that out yet. As I say, an amateur.

Thanks!

S

 

[God Ginrai]

Hello!

I am frustrated and irritated!

I am going to get a pandora through the post at some point between today and 2015 (estimates vary) and have always wanted to write a game for it since ordering it. I am an amateur computer user, know my way around but no professional training. I am also quite old.

I have written games in the past for my Spectrum and Amiga - and to do this you needed just a few things; A graphics package for creating sprites/tiles and a programming language. Perhaps an audio editor/mixer too, and often a map editor.

I believe nowadays this is called a 'tool chain' and the computer it is on is called an 'integrated development environment'. I am learning some things!

In the past this has been simple. I used Basic with a bit of assembler on my Spectrum, and Blitz Basic on my Amiga. It has occurred to me that Basic and Linux do not mix, some snob value going on apparently... so have been messing about with python and pygame. At the end of the day, you just need logic and flow functions and the ability to blit from one image to another to make any 2D game. I don't find Python is as nice to use some of the Basics I have used but never mind - beggars and choosers and all that.

Now sprite editing and map making. I have hunted the internet expecting to find hundreds of solutions to this, and it is a nightmare. Nothing seems to be anywhere near as simple and intuitive as good old DPaint on my miggy, and there were lots of good map editors that exported nice simple binary files. I really do think that the best bet would be for me to sort out E-UAE on my computer again and use these old programs, but surely in the last twenty years someone has come up with similar and better packages?!?

Lots of people on forums say to use GIMP. GIMP is many things, but simple it is not. I messed with it for half an hour and still couldn't work out how to set up an alpha layer, or to mark a bitmap into simple 32x32 squares for tile making.

Does anyone have any tips for simple, straight forward tile/sprite and map editors and other tool chain stuff? I am using a..., sorry..., my IDE is running under Ubuntu 10.04. I know how to install things but not how to compile them... not worked that out yet. As I say, an amateur.

Thanks!

S

I just use the original MSPaint for spriting. (Before they fucked it up by adding the ribbons interface)

-God Ginrai

 

[sabrecheeky]

Well, since going Microsoft free I do not have MSPaint! I don't think it has a grid option like DPaint had for lining up tiles etc.

 

[cosam]

I have written games in the past for my Spectrum and Amiga - and to do this you needed just a few things; A graphics package for creating sprites/tiles and a programming language. Perhaps an audio editor/mixer too, and often a map editor.

I believe nowadays this is called a 'tool chain' and the computer it is on is called an 'integrated development environment'. I am learning some things!

Not a lot has changed on that front; you still need the same basic stuff. The tool chain is the collective term for compilers, linkers and so on, i.e. the "chain of tools" required to get from source to executable. Think of an IDE as a fancy editor which is also able to run the tool chain for you, which is pretty much the same as what you had on the Amiga.

In the past this has been simple. I used Basic with a bit of assembler on my Spectrum, and Blitz Basic on my Amiga. It has occurred to me that Basic and Linux do not mix, some snob value going on apparently... so have been messing about with python and pygame. At the end of the day, you just need logic and flow functions and the ability to blit from one image to another to make any 2D game. I don't find Python is as nice to use some of the Basics I have used but never mind - beggars and choosers and all that.

There are several BASIC implementations for Linux, but the other languages do seem to be more popular.

Now sprite editing and map making. I have hunted the internet expecting to find hundreds of solutions to this, and it is a nightmare. Nothing seems to be anywhere near as simple and intuitive as good old DPaint on my miggy, and there were lots of good map editors that exported nice simple binary files. I really do think that the best bet would be for me to sort out E-UAE on my computer again and use these old programs, but surely in the last twenty years someone has come up with similar and better packages?!?

Lots of people on forums say to use GIMP. GIMP is many things, but simple it is not. I messed with it for half an hour and still couldn't work out how to set up an alpha layer, or to mark a bitmap into simple 32x32 squares for tile making.

You can make sprites in any graphics package you like. I use a combination of tools, GIMP included, but I've still found nothing that beats DPaint for animation (which I indeed run under UAE). There are a million paint packages out there, so it's really just a matter of trying some out until you find one you like. (BTW, for GIMP have a look at View -> Show Grid and Image -> Configure Grid).

 

[sabrecheeky]

Thanks for the reply, and for correcting my understanding of these terms!

There are several BASIC implementations for Linux, but the other languages do seem to be more popular.

Yes, I was having a look. I don't think anyone is in any hurry to port these to the Pandora though. GLBasic looked interesting, I especially liked the fact that it is compiled (like Blitz Basic), rather than interpreted like Python is. Pity it is quite expensive, and only runs on windows (which is the deal breaker for me).

You can make sprites in any graphics package you like. I use a combination of tools, GIMP included, but I've still found nothing that beats DPaint for animation (which I indeed run under UAE). There are a million paint packages out there, so it's really just a matter of trying some out until you find one you like. (BTW, for GIMP have a look at View -> Show Grid and Image -> Configure Grid).

Wow! Well spotted - I'll give that a look, thanks! Still stumped by the alpha layer though, and the whole interface hurts my head!

 

[Tempel]

For map editing and loading, you might want to look at Phil's Pygame Utilities. Haven't tried it myself, but I've heard it recommended frequently, and I don't know of any others. It unfortunately doesn't have an Ubuntu package available, but you can install it through python's distribution utilities (just unzip and run "python setup.py install" from inside the extracted folder).

As for sprite and tile creation, I think everyone's got their own ways to do it, and they'll probably let you know what they are. GIMP is really complicated, as you say, because it can be used for so many things, but if you search for tutorials on using it for pixel art, that should get you going on it quickly.

 

[jasay]

Still stumped by the alpha layer though, and the whole interface hurts my head!

If you want a new image that is transparent when you get the "create a new image" window hit the "advanced options" button and from the "Fill with" dropdown choose transparency. If you want to add a transparency channel to an existing layer go to Layers -> Transparency -> Add alpha channel. Presumably all of the pixel are already some color so if want transparency you're going to have to delete the offending pixels.

That said, I'm not sure how well pygame deals with transparency. It might be better to make all of pixels you want transparent a certain color and then have pygame ignore that color using Surface.set_colorkey and related functions.

 

[sabrecheeky]

@Tempel

Had a look at those utilities... they were a little bit too basic!

I've used a nice one called tilestudio (http://tilestudio.sourceforge.net/) - it was both a tile editor and map editor. A really useful thing about it was you could create new tiles on the fly. Windows only though. And still not as good as DPaint and Blitz Basic Map editor!

@jasay

I'm not sure about the transparencies. While I was messing with it I only used basic ones i.e. either transparent or not, so using colorkey etc was okay. Haven't tried anything more complex.

 

[Mofokubik]

I just use the original MSPaint for spriting. (Before they fucked it up by adding the ribbons interface)
-God Ginrai

Are you kidding? For real? Is there even enough features there to necessitate anything other than a small toolbar?

Ribbons need to die a painful horrible death right now.

 

[iprice]

I just use the original MSPaint for spriting. (Before they fucked it up by adding the ribbons interface)

You're not wrong!

I actually grabbed my MSPaint from XP and placed it on my Windows 7 machine - the old MSPaint is much better (IMHO). I use it for everything, sprite-wise.

 

[HS3006]

Search the forums and the web and start at a FAQ or a Wiki. Under "Developers", there's just about everything you need to know to get started. For information about setting up a toolchain, see DJWillis' blog

I doubt the above links answer your question about GIMP alternatives, but at least you will know how to compile a program for the Pandora.

 

[God Ginrai]

I just use the original MSPaint for spriting. (Before they fucked it up by adding the ribbons interface)

You're not wrong!

I actually grabbed my MSPaint from XP and placed it on my Windows 7 machine - the old MSPaint is much better (IMHO). I use it for everything, sprite-wise.

So did I. I even set it up so that it is the default mspaint that shows up when I type MSPaint at the run prompt and when I choose to edit pictures.

-God Ginrai

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

Well, since going Microsoft free I do not have MSPaint! I don't think it has a grid option like DPaint had for lining up tiles etc.

Pro-motion 6 is very similar to d-paint.it has a tile function of some kind.Im just getting used to it.link to pro motion.

 

[pstudio]

A free option is grafx2 http://code.google.com/p/grafx2/ though I haven't tried it out for real yet it seems promising.

 

[skeezix]

I don't have much to add (or possibly, too much .. ), but ad to reply --

SteveM -- you're still using DPaint, through UAE? At first I was shocked a touch, but it strikes me as really awesome (and not just for old-school awesome kicks) -- but it actually makes a lot of sense to me. but how damn, it must be way cool to be making active use of such an old beast, for current development.

(That said, when debugging some 68k code many years ago, for Palm OS, I used an editor and debugger on my beloved ST ..)

Anyway, I'll slink off again, but just *awesome*; I just want to see one of your projects become enormously successful, so I can read the forum and see the script kiddies saying 'what is this UAE that I need to work on this game?'

jeff

 

[Tempel]

That said, I'm not sure how well pygame deals with transparency. It might be better to make all of pixels you want transparent a certain color and then have pygame ignore that color using Surface.set_colorkey and related functions.

Pygame is just a wrapper around SDL, and SDL struggles with per-pixel alpha. You're right, it's much faster to use colorkeys. You should keep this in mind, sabregolly.

 

[ledow]

I, too, started on the Spectrum and BASIC. I've been programming for ages in all sorts of languages but I had a similar experience when I first started with my GP2X - I didn't know where to start, didn't like all the fancy modern languages, couldn't get anything that I already knew working well enough or cross-platform enough. I had, in the past, dabbled in C and eventually I just took the plunge and began with C and SDL / SDL_gfx. Damn, it was the best thing ever to get stuff working game-wise with that setup - I was quite happy to write using a text editor and compile with a script file at that time, though. I still have a loathing for Makefiles etc.

Simple, cross-platform tools that once set-up, stay set-up. Eventually, after much "persuasion" of my computer, I got a Cygwin setup working the same way too, so that helped me program during the day as well as at home. Then in the last 8 months or so I took the plunge and installed Eclipse (with the C Development Toolkit). Eclipse with Cygwin/MinGW is a pain to setup but once it's there you've got it forever and it's just click-build-executable, whether you have a GP2X or a Windows setting specified for that project. Eclipse on Linux is infinitely easier, by the way. It reminds me of the simplicity I had with Visual Basic 3/4, with the speed and power of C, the portability that I could never find before (Eclipse on Linux, Eclipse on Windows, Eclipse on Mac, SVN integration, cross-compiling, and projects and entire development environments that you can distribute as ZIP files - wonderful), and a nice simple one-window programming environment.

I've just started writing a full game from scratch and that's required my primitive graphics manipulation skills and some very kind pixel artists giving me permission to basically rip apart and destroy their beautiful scenes for the sake of a single sprite that I want. That's involved literally ripping out a partial sprite from a full-scene, cropping the edges, clearing surrounding pixels, redrawing missing parts, applying transparency and saving as a PNG. For spriting, pixel manipulation, image conversion etc., I tried lots of programs, including the Tile Studio mentioned. TS was good but I don't like the way it does transparency but it does have a very cool way of being able to export entire tilesets and maps in a completely configurable output (e.g. a C array, or a CSV file, or a string of bitmap files, etc.). GIMP is absolute suicide unless you're REALLY brave and willing to spend hours learning how to use a damn paint program. Almost eveything has problems with transparency too, even if that's just by making it too complicated because of all the possibilities, or not probably working with it on the clipboard / selection areas.

I found that I wanted to be able to save in transparent PNG's. I wasn't so concerned about full-alpha but I wanted to be able to select a transparent colorkey and have that show in some obvious way while I was editing. I didn't want to have to "wait" until I saved a file to see how it looked when it was transparent. I also wanted ways to do simple things like box-select some pixels and move them left/right/up/down a certain number of pixels, seamlessly switch between 32-bit colour and an optimised palette, paste one transparent sprite on top of another, etc.

In a fit of desperation, I loaded up PaintShopPro 7 Anniversary Edition. It's ancient (barely XP-era, really, but it says so on the box), but it's available for next to nothing on eBay and it is WONDERFUL. The simplicity of Paint, the power of GIMP/Photoshop, the best (simple but powerful) transparency-handling ever and it exports to just about any format you'd ever want. I used to use it for every image manipulation job, as well as designed graphics from scratch for websites, and it's power still shines through above everything else I've used except, possibly, the full versions of Photoshop. The more up-to-date versions of it are crap, though. PSP was such a god-send. Things that were taking me minutes in other programs took seconds and it's support for transparency is better than the dozens of programs I was otherwise using. I haven't used anything else since I installed that program - god knows why it took me so long to actually decide to hunt the disk down and install it.

I can't say that either of those answers will fit your needs, but I spent ages feeling the same way that you do now. I actually spent days looking for a decent VB replacement on Linux, none of them fit. I wanted a simple old-school programming language, I never found one. I wanted a graphics editor that just worked, tried every freeware I could find and they ALL had problems.

Now I have an Eclipse with about half-a-dozen different projects, each with Debug, Release and GP2X Release configurations that do *everything* with one-click, and SVN integration. I have PSP7 and have removed all the other crap I installed to try to emulate its functionality, except Tile Studio which I kept around because it may come in useful if I have to code up all my sprites into one huge tilesheet or customised datafile. I don't have, want or need anything else when I'm coding except for Audacity which I use to convert and edit sound files but to be honest, there's not much alternative to that anyway.

 

[sabrecheeky]

Thanks for the info! I forgot about Paint shop pro, messed with it years ago... one very cool thing about it was it could load/save as ilbm, the de facto standard amiga image file format - that impressed me no end.

I was hoping I wouldn't have to resort to windows or wine... I gave up microsoft with the same gusto and determination as giving up cigarettes. There is also something indefinably pleasant about using the same machine to develop as you use to play the game on. I'd kinda was hoping I could do that a bit with the pandora.

I still use DPaint for lots of things, then using Photogenics to covert to .gif or .png, all on the amiga. I still fire up the old A1200 just for the full on the experience. I suppose there is absolutely nothing wrong, as you say ledow, with sticking with that - it has done me okay for the last 20 odd years. But that is a long time for a set up to last!

S

 

[ledow]

PSP7 has a "gold" rating on Wine.

 

[cosam]

SteveM -- you're still using DPaint, through UAE? At first I was shocked a touch, but it strikes me as really awesome (and not just for old-school awesome kicks) -- but it actually makes a lot of sense to me. but how damn, it must be way cool to be making active use of such an old beast, for current development.

Well, it still does what it always did, and just as well as ever ;-) I know it pretty well due to my misspent youth on the Amiga and I've still not found anything easier for good old pixel-based animation. I usually just do the outlines, pick the whole lot as an animbrush, stamp it out as a sprite sheet, then bring out the GIMP for colouring in and exporting to PNG. GIMP doesn't support ILBMs (at least not as standard) but that's easy enough to work around using ilbmtoppm or a simple screenshot of UAE.