Have The Moulds Been Ordered? If So, When?

[ashdjones]

Ocarina of Time is a better example of a late game that suffered from perfectionism (and lots of gamers recieved that game well).

I guess what i'm trying to say is I damn-well want lasers on my Pandora.

 

[Chip]

My point was that they need to be working towards a deadline, even if they're afraid to tell us what it is, because there is always something that can be done to make a product better.
A project like this with such limited money and manpower cannot be run under strict deadlines. Not if you want a quality result. We don't have any more money or manpower to throw at the project, so any modifications can only be made at the pace that our budget and staff allow. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "You can have good, fast, or cheap. Pick two." Well we're hard-limited to "cheap" and we won't accept anything other than "good", so "fast" gets sacrificed.

The "drop dead date" for feature changes happened almost a year ago. Everything since then has been fixing / modifying existing features that were not performing to expectations. The D-pad, for example, was designed over a year ago, but it could not be tested until all the pieces (board, case, mat, dpad) were manufactured, and that only just recently happened. When it was tested, it was found to imperfect, so it is being modified slightly to perform as it is supposed to perform. Delays suck, but shitty d-pads suck more. Gaming is one of the primary functions of the Pandora, so less-than-ideal gaming controlls are unacceptable. All other minor issues being worked on are of the same type - minor tweaks and fixes to make the platform "great", instead of just "close enough".

 

[VRAndy]

"You can have good, fast, or cheap. Pick two." Well we're hard-limited to "cheap" and we won't accept anything other than "good", so "fast" gets sacrificed.[...]"great", instead of just "close enough".

Then I wish to understand the criterion used to judge the sliding scale between "good" and "fast".

Obviously too far in either direction would be a failure.

Or, perhaps I would just like to be reassured that there is a criterion, and that it's at least within arm's reach of being objective.

 

[ashdjones]

All other minor issues being worked on are of the same type - minor tweaks and fixes to make the platform "great", instead of just "close enough".

Thanks Chip, you reminded me why I put my money into this project to begin with. It was because every other handheld was only 'close enough'.

Eg.

PSP - Blurry Screen, Firmware Hacking
DS - Too slow for many emulators, screen(s) too small, touch screen not working so well anymore, slightly poor sound quality
Gizmondo - Awful battery life, tiny development scene, rubbish buttons, no volume control, washed out screen
N-Gage QD- Screen too small, emulators are commerical, awkward buttons
Cybiko - Slow, non-back-lit, development scene completely dead, tiny memory, slightly rubbish keyboard
GP32 - Smart Media cards are expensive, weird software crashes, no battery life indicator, slightly too short battery life

 

[WhiteBat]

VRAndy, imagine what would happen if there was a flaw on the pandora, and if you only had waited another 2 weeks, it could've been fixed before it was shipped.
Now you have to live with that flaw for the rest of your life.

Delays suck, but shitty d-pads suck more.

exactly

if your going to do it, do it right...why go through all the trouble of making something in the first place, if it sucks in the end?
i'd rather wait then be disappointed. The dev team now only has so much they could do to it anyway.

 

[fusion_power]

My point was that they need to be working towards a deadline, even if they're afraid to tell us what it is, because there is always something that can be done to make a product better.
A project like this with such limited money and manpower cannot be run under strict deadlines. Not if you want a quality result. We don't have any more money or manpower to throw at the project, so any modifications can only be made at the pace that our budget and staff allow. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "You can have good, fast, or cheap. Pick two." Well we're hard-limited to "cheap" and we won't accept anything other than "good", so "fast" gets sacrificed.

The "drop dead date" for feature changes happened almost a year ago. Everything since then has been fixing / modifying existing features that were not performing to expectations. The D-pad, for example, was designed over a year ago, but it could not be tested until all the pieces (board, case, mat, dpad"] were manufactured, and that only just recently happened. When it was tested, it was found to imperfect, so it is being modified slightly to perform as it is supposed to perform. Delays suck, but shitty d-pads suck more. Gaming is one of the primary functions of the Pandora, so less-than-ideal gaming controlls are unacceptable. All other minor issues being worked on are of the same type - minor tweaks and fixes to make the platform "great", instead of just "close enough".[/quote]Very true Words.
But also don't forget a important thing during development: TIME IS MONEY. And if this is true, the Pandora-team sureley has lost a huge bunch of money. Maybe, some things can be still optimized during development, manufacturing, testing, shipping etc.... to save time. i.e. the "delivering-around-the-world-to-the-wrong-adress" thing was very bad. I hope the Pandora-Team can optimize their work in the way of efficient dealing with the time and money they have. Sadly, you never can control third party companies, I know that most of the Pandora-Delay was because of external issues.

Oh, I'm sure the D-Pad will be perfect. DaceC will not sleep, until he has the uber-Pad he wants.

 

[WizardStan]

All other minor issues being worked on are of the same type - minor tweaks and fixes to make the platform "great", instead of just "close enough".
Indeed, but the point was that "perfect" is an impossible goal. You can spend a limitless amount of time tweaking, getting ever closer and closer to perfection, but there will always be something else you want to fix. That's the nature of any project: there's always something else you could do.
The question is, when does "great" equal "close enough"? Is there (at the least hand wavy) metrics which lets you say "this d-pad is close enough to perfect to be considered great"?

 

[Chip]

form and only need minor adjustments. In every instance, the adjustments will vastly improve the overall quality of the device.

Everybody who has preordered a Pandora is well aware of its specifications, and they all have certain expectations of how it should perform. No part will go into full production until we are sure it will meet or exceed those expectations (many parts already have). It's one thing to say "it's got a clamshell design and full gaming controls", but if the hinge flops open or the d-pad is clunky, then those aren't so much features as limitations.

We've all seen what happens when a company is more interested in shipping a product quickly than making sure that its really ready to ship. Microsoft was so desparate to beat Sony and Nintendo on shipping a latest-gen gaming system that their first several revisions had a >40% failure rate. That is insane. We absolutely cannot afford to ship a half-finished product and have to fix things later. We wouldn't want to do that to the people who have supported the project for so long.

 

[RajTakhar]

well said chip

What you said makes 100% sense

 

[VRAndy]

VRAndy, imagine what would happen if there was a flaw on the pandora, and if you only had waited another 2 weeks, it could've been fixed before it was shipped.

How significant of a flaw should I be imagining? Is it one that I'll notice and be bothered by?

What got me thinking along these lines was the dpad issue. I know dpads are a near religious experience for some, but I personally must have very insensitive thumbs because the only one that ever bothered me was the one on the GameCube, and only then because it was too small.

I'll fully grant that differences between dpads exist and I'm just too much of an idiot to see them, but you can see how the prospect of dpad tweaks would get me worrying.

QUOTE
Now you have to live with that flaw for the rest of your life.

Only until Pandora II.

 

[God Ginrai]

QUOTE
Now you have to live with that flaw for the rest of your life.

Only until Pandora II.

If enough people have to live with that flaw, they may not want to invest in the Pandora II, and you will end up having to live with that flaw for the rest of your life.

-God Ginrai

 

[Game_over]

And to put things into perspective, if you may think that it didn't take that long for Sony or Nintendo to produce the PSP and DS - Think again. The typical actual time (from whitepaper to retail) time it takes for the mainstream handheld console is six years (internationalization and legalities happen during milestones after conception and before launch) The DSi (a hardware revision) actually started development in winter of 2005. Public consumption (even with the press) makes it LOOK like it to a shorter period of time to do.

For such a small, the amount that they did at this point (let alone this being more then just a console), in the time of a freaking hardware revision, is absolutely insane. We are all excited about this thing and the very least you guys can do is show the team some respect.

 

[elwing]

makes it LOOK like it to a shorter period of time to do.

yep, the only major difference is that you do not pay your DS or PSP 1years before it comes out... when people actually tells you that it'll probably be out in 2month...
that said the devs seems to make a freaking good juob, but it's quite easy to understand why lot of people get frustated...

 

[ninjawiz2x]

Honestly people my bank is ready to order a pandora but dont lose sleep over this , let the guys do their thing to make the perfect handheld. In the meanwhile get a smart q, dingoo , wiz , whatever else thats in the gbax store to keep you occupied . Before you know it the pandoras are shipping and ready to buy .

 

[elwing]

Honestly people my bank is ready to order a pandora but dont lose sleep over this , let the guys do their thing to make the perfect handheld. In the meanwhile get a smart q, dingoo , wiz , whatever else thats in the gbax store to keep you occupied . Before you know it the pandoras are shipping and ready to buy .

it's exactly what i'm doing and why i'm not complaining... but i personnally think that people that bash/flame people that lose their patience are just as worst as the whinners themself... it's quite normal to get frustated so flaming them seems a bit disproportional...

 

[lulzfish]

I've been looking at those things but I just don't know... If I get a BeagleBoard I can start compiling programs immediately [edit: I mean programs that should be binary-compatible with the Pandora...], but if I get something like an Internet tablet, it will work as a temporary Pandora, only harder to develop for.

If the Pandora is going to take the rest of the summer, it might be worth my money to get something like a Wiz.. But I'm so indecisive, the review process for "buy a Wiz" will take weeks.

 

[frefol]

yep, the only major difference is that you do not pay your DS or PSP 1years before it comes out... when people actually tells you that it'll probably be out in 2month...
that said the devs seems to make a freaking good juob, but it's quite easy to understand why lot of people get frustated...

You must not have ever pre-ordered anything from Gamestop. They will let you pay for something long before any kind of release date, even if it's more than a year before they come out.

 

[emil10001]

You must not have ever pre-ordered anything from Gamestop. They will let you pay for something long before any kind of release date, even if it's more than a year before they come out.

I recall recently seeing a pic somebody had of a Gamestop receipt from 1999 for a preorder of DNF. :huh:

 

[VRAndy]

QUOTE ("Game_Over")
And to put things into perspective, if you may think that it didn't take that long for Sony or Nintendo to produce the PSP and DS -....

Yes, we all know this. It's common knowledge. It's not ... really related to the topic at hand. The conversation sort of moved past that point about eight months ago when we were told there was a month's worth of work yet to go.

QUOTE ("Frefol")
You must not have ever pre-ordered anything from Gamestop. They will let you pay for something long before any kind of release date, even if it's more than a year before they come out.
This is not a comparison that helps. The only people who pre-order like that from Gamestop are [/b]suckers[/b].

Comparing this to a Gamestop pre-order doesn't make us feel better. That makes us feel the opposite of better.


QUOTE ("God Ginrai")
you will end up having to live with that flaw for the rest of your life.
Is Pandora year 2038 ready? Because I hope to live longer than that.

 

[God Ginrai]

The regret of buying the handheld with such a flaw and the fact that you were one of the contributors to it being rushed out with such a flaw will linger with you even after your Pandora has passed on.

-God Ginrai