GOG.com

[ekianjo]

by the way, Regional prices suck, but lots of people seems to have missed that interesting tidbit in GOG policies:

While our older, “back-catalog” games, and most other items, usually cost roughly the same in all currencies, some new games in our catalog may have different prices based on where you are physically located in the world In such cases, you may find that you're asked to pay a different amount than people in other regions do. However, we offer store credit, which you can use in future purchases, to make up for the price difference. Regional pricing is something that is undertaken at the request of the company for whom we are selling the game, but we do our best to go the extra mile and make it right for everyone.

it reduce the grip a little bit...

Why don't they just say :" we don't do regional pricing, so if you company is asking for that, well fuck off if you want to sell your game on GOG" - that would be better instead of accomodating every publisher request out there.

What's next, something like that * "we try to provide DRM-free downloads but DRMs is something that is undertaken at the request of the company for whom we are selling the game, but we do our best to go the extra mile and make it right for everyone." ??

 

[_jr_]

Might be, but currently they are still the best source for alot of titles I do care about. Anyway, since I only buy at sales if the end price is below 2€, I find it really difficult to get myself worked up about Russians getting the game for 1€ instead. I still get very good value for my money.

 

[thatgui]

Imagine going to any kind of shop behind the next border and having to pay way more than everybody else in the same shop.

No problem for you? It's nationalistic discrimination in it's purest form.

And no, VAT has nothing to do with it, currently everybody at GoG pays the Cyprus VAT (until 2015 that is) and the difference is usually way bigger than the difference in VAT would be anyway.

Maybe economical differences has something to do with ? Look at the yearly average income of a german worker and a russian worker - differences "hell yea", discrimation "huh" ? But you don't have to go that far, look in you own country, how income differs if you go from east to west and from that point on keep walking towards the south, you will see how income and prices change (but not always accordingly, which is a completly different problem).The way you propose it would simply mean, that the "cheapest" country will dictate the price regardless of the production costs (and logistics, marketing, etc.), does not sound like a economically viable model to me.

You can ride down the "they betrayed one of their main principles" horse till its dead, and I won't say anything, but talking of discrimination does not make a lot of sense to me in that context.

This also leaves aside that they tried to make a compromise by giving you the store credit as compensation, which (at least for me) clearly shows that they were actually in a dilemma, trying to not just give in (and take a lot of anger from their customers) but keeping an interesting catalogue of games.

What's next, something like that * "we try to provide DRM-free downloads but DRMs is something that is undertaken at the request of the company for whom we are selling the game, but we do our best to go the extra mile and make it right for everyone." ??

I have high doubts that this will happen - why should they give up on their biggest selling point and the only thing that differentiates them from the rest of the market ?

 

[elwing]

What's next, something like that * "we try to provide DRM-free downloads but DRMs is something that is undertaken at the request of the company for whom we are selling the game, but we do our best to go the extra mile and make it right for everyone." ??

I have high doubts that this will happen - why should they give up on their biggest selling point and the only thing that differentiates them from the rest of the market ?

Doing something like that would meant their death, they stand no chance against steam if the go the DRM route, even origin would beat them...

 

[Klumpen]

Maybe economical differences has something to do with ? Look at the yearly average income of a german worker and a russian worker - differences "hell yea", discrimation "huh" ? But you don't have to go that far, look in you own country, how income differs if you go from east to west and from that point on keep walking towards the south, you will see how income and prices change (but not always accordingly, which is a completly different problem).

Right and as you can see, the differences in a single country are big enough to prove the whole "Europeans have to pay most, Russians the least"-model as bollocks, If it would be about the average income or the minimum wage, but it's not, that's just a silly excuse.

People in Moscow earn way more than people in Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, etc.. but they have to pay way less and my income (east German) is about the same as the average Russian income and I have to pay the same as Monaco.

It's not about that, don't let yourself get fooled, it's simply about the guess where they can get the most money. As long as people are willing to pay more for the exact same product in the exact same place/shop, they want to have this money too of course.

The way you propose it would simply mean, that the "cheapest" country will dictate the price regardless of the production costs (and logistics, marketing, etc.), does not sound like a economically viable model to me.

What? Where the hell did I say this? How did you get that idea? No, this would be total bollocks. Imho the best solutions would be

A ) Price dependend on production costs.

B ) "Pay what you want" with the current Russian price as the minimum side of the slider.

Although I tend to A.

There is no completely fair solution and you probably wouldn't want your personal income to be monitored for a price that is dependend on what you possibly can pay (not regarding the living costs that may eat up most of it).

Flat pricing is as fair as it gets, regional pricing is nothing more than trying to get more money by means of discrimination based on your nationality (sometimes your traveling location).

It's like you'd have to pay more because you're not black or not a woman, which would be racist and sexist.

You know those market stands in the near east where people who look like tourists get prices up to 5 times as high as the ones their townspeople get?

This is what is happening here and I'm always baffled how many people think it's ok.

 

[thatgui]

Right and as you can see, the differences in a single country are big enough to prove the whole "Europeans have to pay most, Russians the least"-model as bollocks, If it would be about the average income or the minimum wage, but it's not, that's just a silly excuse.

People in Moscow earn way more than people in Ukraine, Hungary, Romania, etc.. but they have to pay way less and my income (east German) is about the same as the average Russian income and I have to pay the same as Monaco.

No, because its about the average income. Prices in Germany are different because they usually are local products (like non imported food or flats), so their price is oriented on the local economical parameters. Same with your income, yours maybe not much different from an average russian one, but the average income in Germany is a lot higher.But there are other things you have to factor in too, local taxes (not only VAT), distributers, margins, hybrid calculation (you may have an arbitrary lowered price in one country which will effectivly create a loss you have to counter by raising the price elsewehere) etc. Of course that still does not explain everything, but its just wrong to shout "you greedy bastards" in that direction.

What? Where the hell did I say this? How did you get that idea? No, this would be total bollocks. Imho the best solutions would be

A ) Price dependend on production costs.

B ) "Pay what you want" with the current Russian price as the minimum side of the slider.

Although I tend to A.

Because you implied it: Step into the shoes of a russian worker, buying a game. This game has an online mode, and he plays with some guy living in another country that has a lower average income, while they are talking the other guy starts talking about what a bargain, that was.. and tada , we have a new winner, which now defines the price - or is there a special reason why russia should be the low end ?

 

[Klumpen]

is there a special reason why russia should be the low end ?

As I wrote, Russia is the low end because of heavy piracy, it's not about who should be the low end, probably Africa, I don't know.

I just tried to tell you, that the excuses you hear from those companies for regional pricing don't have anything to do with why it's actually there and surely don't explain the way it's applied at all.

It's not about some theories what would be more fair than flat pricing, it's about the fact, that regional pricing never was intended to be more fair, if it was, there would be more than two Euro zones at Steam and East Germany would have to pay less than West Germany, but it's simply not about fairness at all. People are selling something, people want to make the most money out if it. It's as simple as that. Those PR tricks obviously work though.

Besides: Do you go to a car dealer and say, that you want the Porsche for a fraction of the usual price, because you don't earn as much as someone from Monaco?

Monaco is in Europe, so you should earn about the same as people there with the usual regional pricing logic applied.

CDProjectRed/GoG is from Poland, I think they know pretty much about the logic problems with the official reasons.

 

[thatgui]

As I wrote, Russia is the low end because of heavy piracy, it's not about who should be the low end, probably Africa, I don't know.

Yes, and its a totally arbitrary choice, you have no real reason to choose - you chose it just because you think it fits. Someone else may come to another conclusion, basing it on the same vague arguments (I'll bet you find a country that has a lower average income then russia and additonally higher piracy rates).

I just tried to tell you, that the excuses you hear from those companies for regional pricing don't have anything to do with why it's actually there and surely don't explain the way it's applied at all.

It's not about some theories what would be more fair than flat pricing, it's about the fact, that regional pricing never was intended to be more fair, if it was, there would be more than two Euro zones at Steam and East Germany would have to pay less than West Germany, but it's simply not about fairness at all. People are selling something, people want to make the most money out if it. It's as simple as that. Those PR tricks obviously work though.

And I tried to tell you that reality is a lot more complicated than "they are greedy", but if you need that for your perception of the world, be my guest.

Besides: Do you go to a car dealer and say, that you want the Porsche for a fraction of the usual price, because you don't earn as much as someone from Monaco?

Monaco is in Europe, so you should earn about the same as people there with the usual regional pricing logic applied.

You do realize that there is no "standard" model regarding regional pricing. Other then that I can only point you back to square one > there may be other factors than evil, moustache twirling capitalist at work here.

 

[Klumpen]

I didn't choose Russia as the low end, GoG did, again you only see not existing implications instead of what I wrote.

You'll probably find statistics saying that black people and women earn less and with your logic they should have to pay less too, but this argument was ignored too.

So you think, that after GoG advertised their flat prices as fair pricing and one of their core values they suddenly thought "Hey, it's more fair to charge Russia the least and Europeans the most, let's do this instead!"?

Yeah, whatever floats your boat. oO

I only got problems with lies and discrimination, that's all.

If you got more problems with people pointing them out, then we won't get anywhere.

At least we seem to aggree, that the current system is quite arbitrary.

 

[_jr_]

Yes, they reneged on their promises.


Yes, they may do it again.


Yes, it feels crap if the price of something you want is larger than you can afford, when in other regions it's less expensive.


But is the current state of affairs really enough to be more than a bit disappointed?


Pretty much all the games on GOG have at various times been available for a steal and some even for free. They do provide free updates for a lot of titles. And at least for now they do provide the so called 'fair price package'. Is anybody getting filthy rich from this? I don't think so, but feel free to prove otherwise. (Actually to me it isn't at all clear that their business model is viable in the long term, since they generate income only from new sales while the old sales continually raise their base infrastructure cost.) I'd also like to see some numbers corroborating the alleged correlation between piracy and pricing.


Anyway, my primary concern is that they stay in business and keep my library accessible as long as possible. If flat pricing is better to achieve that goal, I'm all for it. I don't know. But justice and fairness really do have no relevance here. Gaming isn't a basic need.


That said, to me it's more important that some not just minimal level of transparency is provided. And I agree this could be better. The way they pitch Witcher 3 is particularly annoying: e.g. having 5 star rating while still in preorder to assure it is at the top of most lists.

 

[thatgui]

I didn't choose Russia as the low end, GoG did, again you only see not existing implications instead of what I wrote.

• You broadend the discussion yourself (outside of gogs current choice of countries), so why limit it again ("Imagine going to any kind of shop behind the next border ...), just so it suits you ?
• You accepted gogs arbitrary choice as you used it yourself in further posts ("end of the slide"), which you only did because Russia has the cheapest prices, which brings us back to square one > the cheapest should dictate the price. At least thats what I'm getting out of what your wrote, as I specifically asked for additional parameters for that choice, which you did not give.
• Another play of thoughts: gog decides to expand his business activities into the next country "x" with an even lower average income than russia. How will your choice for the country that defines the price now turn out ? Will it still be russia ? If it is so, isn't that a bit unfair for the people in country x as their income is much lower so they can't really afford it ? If country x is the new "low" isn't that even more unfair for the people in Europe that already have to pay these high prices ?

 

[ekianjo]

If it is so, isn't that a bit unfair for the people in country x as their income is much lower so they can't really afford it

Since when gaming has to be "fairly priced" ? It's not like something you need to live. 

 

[thatgui]

If it is so, isn't that a bit unfair for the people in country x as their income is much lower so they can't really afford it

Since when gaming has to be "fairly priced" ? It's not like something you need to live. 

Please read that in the context of the discussion at hand > his point of view is that regional pricing is unfair or to be more "on qoute": discrimination

 

[Klumpen]

I didn't choose Russia as the low end, GoG did, again you only see not existing implications instead of what I wrote.

• You broadend the discussion yourself (outside of gogs current choice of countries), so why limit it again ("Imagine going to any kind of shop behind the next border ...), just so it suits you ?
• You accepted gogs arbitrary choice as you used it yourself in further posts ("end of the slide"), which you only did because Russia has the cheapest prices, which brings us back to square one > the cheapest should dictate the price. At least thats what I'm getting out of what your wrote, as I specifically asked for additional parameters for that choice, which you did not give.
• Another play of thoughts: gog decides to expand his business activities into the next country "x" with an even lower average income than russia. How will your choice for the country that defines the price now turn out ? Will it still be russia ? If it is so, isn't that a bit unfair for the people in country x as their income is much lower so they can't really afford it ? If country x is the new "low" isn't that even more unfair for the people in Europe that already have to pay these high prices ?

You didn't understand half of what I wrote as it seems and only try to "unprove" my point now because in your opinion I'm just trying to argue.

You didn't get that I tried to explain to you why GoGs system is as it is, at another point how it would be handled if the official explanations wouldn't be lies and thirdly I tried to tell you how I think it should be handled (depending on the developing costs and nothing else), since you throw it all together and just try to make some silly fight here instead of trying to understand what I'm writing, I just bow out here, because I don't like being told I'd bend something to "suit me". I have absolutely no interest in fighting or "winning" here and think you can discuss/fight your destructive ways full of searching for silly implications without me. Once again it's made obvious, that proper communication with humans isn't possible when they are just trying to fight instead of trying to understand each other. I won't mention all the points you ignored for this repeatedly either. Maybe there is a hidden agenda behind this and you are one of the devs advocating regional pricing for more money, who knows?

 

[thatgui]

You didn't understand half of what I wrote as it seems and only try to "unprove" my point now because in your opinion I'm just trying to argue.

You didn't get that I tried to explain to you why GoGs system is as it is, at another point how it would be handled if the official explanations wouldn't be lies and thirdly I tried to tell you how I think it should be handled (depending on the developing costs and nothing else), since you throw it all together and just try to make some silly fight here instead of trying to understand what I'm writing, I just bow out here, because I don't like being told I'd bend something to "suit me". I have absolutely no interest in fighting or "winning" here and think you can discuss/fight your destructive ways full of searching for silly implications without me. Once again it's made obvious, that proper communication with humans isn't possible when they are just trying to fight instead of trying to understand each other. I won't mention all the points you ignored for this repeatedly either. Maybe there is a hidden agenda behind this and you are one of the devs advocating regional pricing for more money, who knows?

Sigh, why this babbeling about a hidden agenda ?I tried to point out that things are more complicated then "it is all about greed" and you can't just define a zone as you like to be a base for comparison and/or price building, but as it seems like you are stuck in a "no one understands me, and everybody is trying to fight me" mindset. But to get this back on a productive track, I would like to kindly ask you to repeat your points (even if its tiresome), and I'll try to answer to them without just fighting you. And if you feel like I'm falling back into old patterns again, please point that out.

Back to your idea: "depending on the developing costs and nothing else".

What does development costs include in this context ? Really only the costs for development (like paying programmers), or does this include the whole costs of developing and selling a game (starting from the salary of a janitor right till the end, meaning the profit margin the retailer wants) ?

But leaving this question open (we just asuem for the sake of our discussion- that we are just talking about salaries of people directly involved) how would you see your model working out in this situation:

A lot of game development today happens in two economically rather different countries/regions in the world: Canada and eastern Europe. Just out of beeing lazy I just took the numbers from Wikipedia and reduced eastern Europe to Poland and the Czech Republic and I also took the liberty to just look at the GDP which cannot be directly translated into an average income > but I guess we can agree seeing a trend on how things are when we compare both regions: Canada has a GDP of 50000 USD per citizen while Poland and the Czech republic average about (very rougly) 17000 USD per citizen. Would you follow my conclusion that in Canada the average income is a lot higher then in eastern European countries, especially in the context of IT-industry jobs, which will probably not rank at the lower end of the income gap.

Wouldn't this also lead to a rather big gap in the pricing area, leaving customers the choice wether to buy product X from Canada or in terms of quality an equal product Y from eastern Europe. Who do you think would have more sales, especially when you move our customers down - through countries - the "average income" slope ?

 

[Klumpen]

@thatgui: I stopped reading your post when you started with retail again (since it's about digital distribution) and I don't think anything will come from it if we continue talking past each other (or you just trolling, doesn't make a difference to me).

So the following post is not meant to be going in your direction, seems I have to point this out like everything else, so I'm doing this now and will ignore your insulting statement about me whining about how nobody would understand me, because others do understand pretty well. Stop insulting me by the way and fight a wall or something/someone else.

Update:

The regional prices for UK and Russia have been somewhat reduced.

http://www.gog.com/forum/general/regional_priced_games_on_gog/post1135

Yes, prices for Russia were reduced even further now.

The explanation was a fluctuation in exchange rates.

To quote someone who wondered about the same thing as me:

Strange. When the Euro loses value, we have to pay more for our games. When the Rubbel loses value, the Russians get an even higher discount. Can someone explain that to me?

 

[thatgui]

@thatgui: I stopped reading your post when you started with retail again (since it's about digital distribution)

Why ? As far as I know retail only means that products are sold to singular customers, regardless wether these products are stacked in a sales room or their digital equivalents are distributed via a server.

and I don't think anything will come from it if we continue talking past each other (or you just trolling, doesn't make a difference to me).

Can't tell, tried to start over again, you refused to do so

so I'm doing this now and will ignore your insulting statement about me whining about how nobody would understand me, because others do understand pretty well. Stop insulting me by the way and fight a wall or something/someone else.

Yes, should not have made that statement, I am sorry - will be more carefull next time 

Update:

The regional prices for UK and Russia have been somewhat reduced.

 http://www.gog.com/forum/general/regional_priced_games_on_gog/post1135

What about the reponses from user "Grargar" in that thread ?

 

[rohezal]

The rubbel dropped stronger the the euro, the price for food rose and people in Russia have in general less money then in Germany. Probably they wanted less money from russian customers instead of no money. And to keep their customers, when the Rubel will rise again. 

 

[dflatline]

Looking at things like a countries average income in comparison to another isn't really useful either when considering this sort of thing, it's more important to consider the cost of living and individual's disposable income. A quick comparison between Moscow and Berlin tells us that:

"You would need around 4,571.02$ (3,676.02€) in Moscow to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 2,900.00€ in Berlin (assuming you rent in both cities). This calculation uses our Consumer Prices Including Rent Index. Local Purchasing Power in Moscow is 50.35% lower than in Berlin" (Source: numbeo.com)

Then there's things like exchange rates, sales taxes, income taxes and so on. So many seemingly minor differences compound. It doesn't matter for example that 2 people in different countries earn the same income, when they both drive to work yet petrol is 1/2 the price in one of their countries, while on paper they earn the same they don't both have the same disposable income.

Being aware of these factors and adjusting your price per country could be characterised as being about fairness as much as you could say it is about greed. I would also argue it is better to sell 100 of your product at £1 than it is to sell 50 at £2. You'd be making the exact same amount of profit, but double the amount of satisifed customers.

 

[Klumpen]

Looking at things like a countries average income in comparison to another isn't really useful either when considering this sort of thing, it's more important to consider the cost of living and individual's disposable income. A quick comparison between Moscow and Berlin tells us that:

"You would need around 4,571.02$ (3,676.02€) in Moscow to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 2,900.00€ in Berlin (assuming you rent in both cities). This calculation uses our Consumer Prices Including Rent Index. Local Purchasing Power in Moscow is 50.35% lower than in Berlin" (Source: numbeo.com)

How current is this information?

Since the rent in Berlin rises at about 15% every year for quite some years now, I highly doubt that those numbers are still accurate, they may well have been 10 years ago.

East Germany and especcially Berlin are an example for quite the opposite of your reasoning, because the living costs are rising further and further while the wages are kept low (about 30% lower than in West Germany).

Besides if you only compare capitols it's hardly represantitive for the whole country but rather another arbitrary method of comparison.