Games That Follow The Gp2x Standards?

[Game_over]

I think (just an opinion) we have been taking the notion of standards in the wrong way.

-Standards for software-

Standards in videogames was never really a forced set of rules that all games had to follow. Standards in videogames was formed when a game did something so well, when developers looked at certain aspects of that game, they figured it is a natural fit for their game. Allot of people like the same type of games because that game had to certain characteristics that resonate with them.

-Standards for Hardware-

I can kinda of see some of you guys point here that there should be some common ground for game UI in regards to the GP2X; however again, it should be extremely minimal, and not forced.

Lets take a look at some examples

-PSP
* When playing a game, if you press <HOME> it ask "do you want to quit you game"

-DS
* When you hit L+R+face buttons (correct me if im wrong) the system resets

Something like that would work.

 

[Manjuu]

Of course, it should never be forced. It's more of a set of guidelines that would make the playing experience much better.

Oh yeah, maybe add another configuration indicator, aside from the ABC (example by xcen), that would show that a software uses a custom configuration, and it does not follow the normal ones. Well I guess it's not really necessary, but it could be used to "inform" users and point them to read the readme.

 

[xcen]

here is the effort on the wiki I have been talking about earlier...

Zero, if you haven't seen this, you have to read it

Here is the link

 

[Manjuu]

here is the effort on the wiki I have been talking about earlier...

Zero, if you haven't seen this, you have to read it

Here is the link


Stick Click is definitely NOT recommended. :lol:

 

[skeezix]

There is no 'standards'.

Making up some guidelines and calling them standards doesn't make them so. They have to be defined, refined and agreed upon by users and devs both.

So far, the attempts I've seen worked against themselves.. trying to be broad when they shoudl be narrow. You cannot define one standard and also comprehsnsive UI spec since there are many kinds of applications, and some lend themselves _Really well_ to certain UI footprints.

But a very narrow set of standards could work. Define how to get in an out of an application of a certain kind maybe, perhaps even goign so far as several application types.. emu's versus book readers and so on, I dunno. But a whole large defintion of function, when emus of different kidns have wildly different feature sets (a colecovision has no disk drive, or keyboard, for instance..)

I've not though much about it, but if peopel wish to psuh for standards, they have to do so with that thinking. So far, (no offence), I think it hasn't been thought through at all.

In the end.. we dont' need them anyway. It'd be nice if quitting an app always worked more or less the same, but beyond that.. screw it

jeff

Example: I'm forver annoyed by the fact I get a bunch of peopel bugging me why I use 'X' for 'act' in various applications; if I switch it, I get a bunch of peopel asking why its 'O'. Why? Because Japanese devices tend one way, and USians another. Likewise wit shoulder buttons. There are already multiple standards, and a device like the GP2x is used all over. So should its UI be PSP like? If so, its already confusing to the user

Ex from the link:

"Stick click should be used to select the highlighted menu item" -- no way. Stick click should almost _never be used_. Its too easy to do by accident. I dont' think devices should even have it, usually.

"X must be used to cancel and go back to the previous menu" -- historically, this varies by country for other devices. It is usually best to clone other common devices where possible, since people have used them. (Mind you, I run into problems with CaSTaway.. am I trying to do it the GP2x way? The GBA way? The Zodiac way? or the Atari ST way? Bah, too many kinds of users expect different things..)

"Either A or B should be used for the primary action." .. same as above. In the US, the PSP uses the 'bottom button' (X/cross) for "action", but "circle" (right button) is used in Japanese games. So this is a complex choice. (By which a standard that just picks one, perhaps is the way to go. IT annoys me since it is the opposite to a decade of muscle memory to me, but I can swallow that..)

"Stick click & Start must be used to exit the application" -- no way, not a chance in hell Exiting should be easy. It shoudl not be something someone has to hunt and guess for

"Stick click & L should be used as shortcut for the 'save' menu action"? Why not stick this in a save menu ..

"Start & Select should be used to access an application configuration screen, an about screen or a debug screen" .. well, it already says Start is the pause.. but shoudl be pause+menu. Again, keeping things obvious, and stick click should never be used. (And on F200, there is no stick click; expecting peopele to try and guess at hitting all those buttons to simulate it... nightmare.)

 

[Manjuu]

I've not though much about it, but if peopel wish to psuh for standards, they have to do so with that thinking. So far, (no offence), I think it hasn't been thought through at all.

In the end.. we dont' need them anyway. It'd be nice if quitting an app always worked more or less the same, but beyond that.. screw it

No offence taken (from me)

Well I don't know about the others, but the level of standardization I was thinking was pretty much just for exiting and accessing of the menu (and I guess also volume controls).

EDIT: Also to include documentation of the controls (and other important information) in the Readme.

 

[xcen]

btw I was not stating that I agree with anything in the wiki article =)

just to show zero that someone had tried to do the same as he is doing right now in the early F100 days =)

 

[letsridebmx104]

I've not though much about it, but if peopel wish to psuh for standards, they have to do so with that thinking. So far, (no offence), I think it hasn't been thought through at all.

In the end.. we dont' need them anyway. It'd be nice if quitting an app always worked more or less the same, but beyond that.. screw it


No offence taken (from me)

Well I don't know about the others, but the level of standardization I was thinking was pretty much just for exiting and accessing of the menu (and I guess also volume controls).

EDIT: Also to include documentation of the controls (and other important information) in the Readme.


@skeezix Well, Lets get Dev and users to agree on these standards

@Manjuu Exactly... The standards I have in my head are

a few configurations for menus and that games that follow these "standards" display a splash screen that says something to the likes of, "(Insert App Name Here) Follows the GP2x menu standard (STANDARD TYPE HERE). And in that Splash have an outline of what that standard is

IE

A = OK
B= Cancel
Vol+-=Return to Menu

^^ Just a demo... Thoughts Ideas.

Thoughts or Ideas on this?

 

[Manjuu]

I find that including too much information in a splash screen would just make things cluttered & even defeats the purpose of a logo.

Well I already listed what I want to see a level of uniformity in:
- Menu button(s): To access the menu (I prefer Vol+&- for menu, Stick/D-pad to navigate, A and/or B button for okay, X for cancel; it could differ though).
- Exit button(s): (Not really necessary) To exit the game aside from going in the menu; better to have a confirmation screen also.
- Volume Controls: Even if it's just a basic one, but the more advance it is, the better.
- Documentation: For controls & important information.

In the end, whether or not a "standard" would be made, as long as the software reach a certain level of uniformity & ease of use in the controls, then I'm good.

 

[skeezix]

Also, it serves to alienate. With OutCaST I could honour some of such a 'comprehensive' standard, but not all.. I've a lot of options, and hitting one button to toggle keyboard is really really handy.. and 99% of other emus/apps don't need to do that.

So my emu would be 'nonstandards' because it refuses some parts of the standard?

But as I said..

1) MAKE A SIMPLE STANDARD
2) Thus its easy for apps to adhere.

This one is wrong in a number of ways IMHO, and because it is so big, it is hard for people to adhere to it.

Make a standard that says 'heres how to quit' and 'nice to haves: heres how to page up and down using shoulders'. Then call it a day.

At this stage, its too late, too -- the GP2X is already getting mature, and a lot of apps are done. I know I'm not going to redo my UI anytime soon

jeff

 

[Alex.]

Menu navigation should be standard for all apps, whether emulators or book readers. B for accepting, X for canceling. This is not the PSP, DS, or Atari ST, this is the GP2X and thus software should cater to GP2X users, and to the most intuitive physical layout available on the GP2X. B feels like a primary button, and X like a secondary, so it only makes sense that they're assigned those roles. Calling menus can be tricky though - a native app or a port can get away with using Start or Select, but what about emulators that use those buttons themselves? There's no perfect alternative, so thank goodness that Pandora will have a Menu button!

I think it's a bad idea to put 'compliant' logos on homebrew software. It could send the wrong message, after all 99% of the GP2X software library is freeware, and people shouldn't be forced to adhere to a certain set of design choices just to get their software 'acceptance'. I know that's not your intention, but some may interpret it this way. Most programs are intuitive enough already, and the ones that aren't are fairly few, and once you look over the readme once or twice you'll remember what each button does anyway.

 

[Manjuu]

This one is wrong in a number of ways IMHO, and because it is so big, it is hard for people to adhere to it.

Which one are you talking about? The one in wiki or the one we've been discussing about?

If it's the wiki one, then I also don't like it. It definitely alienates & is very troublesome to just try to follow that. (It never catched on, so that says a lot.) <_<

At this stage, its too late, too -- the GP2X is already getting mature, and a lot of apps are done. I know I'm not going to redo my UI anytime soon

Well yeah, it's kind of late already for such a thing, but at least the future ones could have a better level of uniformity.

I think it's a bad idea to put 'compliant' logos on homebrew software. It could send the wrong message, after all 99% of the GP2X software library is freeware, and people shouldn't be forced to adhere to a certain set of design choices just to get their software 'acceptance'. I know that's not your intention, but some may interpret it this way. Most programs are intuitive enough already, and the ones that aren't are fairly few, and once you look over the readme once or twice you'll remember what each button does anyway.

You have point. Well I don't care much about the logo itself though.

Readme files are definitely the way to go for me, but unfortunately, not all programs have them or include sufficient or clear information.

(Alex, I like your readme files (and your games); organized and easy to read. )

 

[skeezix]

I was referring to the wiki one.. I missed anything else that came up

I'm 100% for standards and clean workflows et al, but I'm in the way of those that go too far, thats all. ie: Standards that succeed are lean and clean and easy to adopt and grow later as they can. Big heavy ones always die stillborn in my experience..

jeff

 

[letsridebmx104]

Menu navigation should be standard for all apps, whether emulators or book readers. B for accepting, X for canceling. This is not the PSP, DS, or Atari ST, this is the GP2X and thus software should cater to GP2X users, and to the most intuitive physical layout available on the GP2X. B feels like a primary button, and X like a secondary, so it only makes sense that they're assigned those roles. Calling menus can be tricky though - a native app or a port can get away with using Start or Select, but what about emulators that use those buttons themselves? There's no perfect alternative, so thank goodness that Pandora will have a Menu button!

I think it's a bad idea to put 'compliant' logos on homebrew software. It could send the wrong message, after all 99% of the GP2X software library is freeware, and people shouldn't be forced to adhere to a certain set of design choices just to get their software 'acceptance'. I know that's not your intention, but some may interpret it this way. Most programs are intuitive enough already, and the ones that aren't are fairly few, and once you look over the readme once or twice you'll remember what each button does anyway.

I hear your point and I "feel" what you are saying. But to counter that point like skeezix said, If you don't like the standards then don't adhere to them, I KNOW, Even if the new standard becomes popluar and widespread somebody is going to release a Kick butt game and it isn't compliant, so what? The game still rocks, Keep up the good work. Also, on the standards website we could put a statement such as yours, "It is not Our intention to force you into using these standards, We have decided that these standards would best fit the application at hand and if you want to apply these to your app feel free to do so heres how."

Let me state my Agenda:

Goals
Make Standard for menu nav ( Emu Reader Etc)
Make Standard for exiting (L+R+start?)
Make it so that if a non GP2x user grabs your GP2x they aren't totally confused by the navigation.(Had that happen a few times)
Let people know in a splash screen what the controls are (IE, Not the best example but an example, Cooking Mama cook off, before every "round" you need to use a different control, so they let you know what does what, I want to do that , On a Simpler Level.)

At this stage, its too late, too -- the GP2X is already getting mature, and a lot of apps are done. I know I'm not going to redo my UI anytime soon

Whats supposed to be coming out in Spring ( Western Hemisphere ) '08? If we can get a lean mean set of standards in place before the system is released people will Definatley take notice and try to adhere to them for some uniformity, IMO.

Lee

 

[skeezix]

The pandora is still an unknown interface, no? (Or are those pics flying around the 'finished' design?) But sure, working in advance forpandora could be a good idea. If it has stylus though, and a standard menu and such, then all of this is more than moot however, so you need insider info and coop from the pandora devs. (ie: If it has a multitasking UI where a master control overlay can be brought up, HUD like, anytime.. then all these standards mean nothing.)

(Further, we already know it has a Menu button, so that alone makes it different to the GP2x et al)

I'd say L+R+Start for exit is retarded; start and exit must be easy (note your next point, about making it essy for newbies to pick up. L+R+Start is completely hidden.)

Start should bring up a menu, which should let you quit. Is all Simple

jeff

 

[letsridebmx104]

^^ I can dig it,

So , Non Emu's start for menus
Emu's Vol+- for menu? < personal fave for emus! Opinions

so you need insider info and coop from the pandora devs. (ie: If it has a multitasking UI where a master control overlay can be brought up, HUD like, anytime.. then all these standards mean nothing.)

jeff

as a guru do you have any pull PM me !

 

[skeezix]

I'm out of the loop; probably because they know I've got a screaming baby around and am functionally useless for another couple of months When the pandora hits, I'm hoping to be ready with a couple titles though

jeff

 

[letsridebmx104]

Darn well Good luck with all your endevors, My goal for pandora release is to have GP2x standards

 

[sparr]

I cannot take seriously a "standard" that advocates a directory called "applications" on a device with no keyboard. Hello, "apps"?

 

[PokeParadox]

The pandora is still an unknown interface, no? (Or are those pics flying around the 'finished' design?) But sure, working in advance forpandora could be a good idea. If it has stylus though, and a standard menu and such, then all of this is more than moot however, so you need insider info and coop from the pandora devs. (ie: If it has a multitasking UI where a master control overlay can be brought up, HUD like, anytime.. then all these standards mean nothing.)

(Further, we already know it has a Menu button, so that alone makes it different to the GP2x et al)

I'd say L+R+Start for exit is retarded; start and exit must be easy (note your next point, about making it essy for newbies to pick up. L+R+Start is completely hidden.)

Start should bring up a menu, which should let you quit. Is all Simple

jeff

L+R+Start was only the best Emulator combo for bringing up a menu, that would also accross the spectrumof apps. The reasoning behind it is that it is akin to pressing CTRL+ALT+DEL and unlkely to be pressed accidentally.
Of course this was until the community (read Notaz ) discovered both volume buttons could be pressed simultaneousely. That just never was updated on the site, however.