Frustrated by the AV cable situation!

[BackAssward]

I suggest taking preorders, limit 1 per customer. Having signed up for the mail notification and waited patiently, I would rather not be sniped when the items are available for sale. While I am sympathetic to folks waiting on an original preorder, I would rather you add $1-2 to my price to subsidize that fulfillment and ship mine when I pay.

As cables will not be shipped automatically to old pre-orders (we have to place an order at ED's shop first), I'm pretty sure it will be first come first served.

 I don't know what you are talking about... ED never said anything about having to place an order at his shop first as far as I can tell:

Now, about already preordered cables:

I'm currently trying to ship out the cables to everyone who has preordered and paid one without any further costs (means: to both mine and Craigs customers).

However, Craig has over 500 customers waiting for a TV Out cable, which means it'll cost me a couple of thousand euro to ship them out.

I'm trying to compensate this, if everything works out fine, you'll all get them without any further payments.

But I cannot tell for sure if this works. In worst case, I'll have to charge production and shipping costs for you - but will give you a corresponding voucher for my shop as compensation.

So i.e. if I have to charge 10 EUR for the TV Out Cable, you'll get a 10 EUR voucher and could use that to order an SD Card cheaper together with it).

-God Ginrai

Sure looks like he said that (see below):

I'll get new prototypes this week (they didn't use a proper connector), so it's probably we'll have the mass production done in 7 weeks.

The cables are a lot more expensive than planned back then, so I cannot simply send them out to the old preorders for free, sorry about that.

However, you will receive a coupon for my shop which equals the amount of the TV Out Cable if you place an order worth more than 50 EUR.

So you order some SD Card, a GCW, an Everdrive or a lot of small items (T-Shirts, etc.) and basically get the cable for free again.

So, is this another kick in the face to the pre-orderers? What about the existing sale contract? I have to buy $50 dollars worth of stuff I don't want, from a store that I don't want to shop in (for things I can get cheaper and faster locally), in order to get something I already paid for, (years after I was promised it)?

What of all the cable pre-orderers? Will they be notified that their order and money has dissapeared? That promises made are broken, after years of waiting, money already spent? Or will there be no email to these people, and they have to find out how I did, by accidentally running across it. What of order fufillment and ethical business practices? You know, not everyone who has paid for the cable, will be here to find this news out. Not to mention, the cable is nothing like the original one promised, with the nice metal cable ends.

Those of us who already paid were promised something at a price, we paid that price. It doesn't matter what it costs to make now, the fact we had to wait so long and that the cable looks cheaper than the original prototype, is bad enough.

Seriously, is this the plan?

Edit: That's $65+ USD after exchange, nevermind shipping costs.

Also, in his hypothetical scenario of it costing 10Euro to make, pretty sure I paid more than that already for it.

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Edit2. Not sure what happened to my account history, I certainly have made more than 3 posts in the past many years.

 

[_wb_]

It's not very fair to make such angry posts aimed at EvilDragon. The situation is that Craig broke his promises and if it wasn't for ED, none of his remaining customers would get anything at all: they would not get a Pandora, no cable, and basically all they could do about it is sue Craig's shop, maybe forcing it to declare bankruptcy but the net effect would still be that they wouldn't get anything except a lawyers bill.

EvilDragon not only gave new hope to Craig's customers by producing and shipping their units, all funded by his own generosity (from profits that he could otherwise have used to pay off his debts) and by the generosity of community donations. He is now also spending time and money to actually make the long-awaited TV out cables happen. Again, he is going much further than his legal obligations, by offering a very nice deal to Craig's customers.

Sure, it would be better if Craig would just give everyone the cable they have paid him for, but I don't think that's going to happen. You can and should blame Craig for this. But you shouldn't get angry at ED for trying to help to solve Craig's mess with a compromise solution that is somewhere in the middle between the ideal solution (everyone gets a cable without extra payment) and the current situation (nobody gets a cable at all).

 

[Asmo]

I'm not sure if there's a misunderstanding above, I think ED hasn't put a price on the cable itself yet, but what he said in the quote (assuming I'm reading it right) is that you can still get one 'free' if you are also buying €50 of other stuff from him - otherwise the cable will cost whatever it costs by itself.

 

[BackAssward]

I'm not sure if there's a misunderstanding above, I think ED hasn't put a price on the cable itself yet, but what he said in the quote (assuming I'm reading it right) is that you can still get one 'free' if you are also buying €50 of other stuff from him - otherwise the cable will cost whatever it costs by itself.

Right, Cost again whatever it costs (if that post is still valid), plus the money already spent.

At the other guy: I didn't get mad at any point, I layed out the situation as I saw it, just info no emotion.

Either way, I thought ED took on all the preorder responsibilities from Craig when he took over the Pandora, at least, that is what I remember reading when it happened.

Also, did no one want to reply about the fact that the only way a pre-order person could find out about this was to come here, to this one thread, at just the right time to see it? What about notifying all the existing paying customers?

 

[Timstertoo]

It's not very fair to make such angry posts aimed at EvilDragon. The situation is that Craig broke his promises and if it wasn't for ED, none of his remaining customers would get anything at all: they would not get a Pandora, no cable, and basically all they could do about it is sue Craig's shop, maybe forcing it to declare bankruptcy but the net effect would still be that they wouldn't get anything except a lawyers bill.

EvilDragon not only gave new hope to Craig's customers by producing and shipping their units, all funded by his own generosity (from profits that he could otherwise have used to pay off his debts) and by the generosity of community donations. He is now also spending time and money to actually make the long-awaited TV out cables happen. Again, he is going much further than his legal obligations, by offering a very nice deal to Craig's customers.

Sure, it would be better if Craig would just give everyone the cable they have paid him for, but I don't think that's going to happen. You can and should blame Craig for this. But you shouldn't get angry at ED for trying to help to solve Craig's mess with a compromise solution that is somewhere in the middle between the ideal solution (everyone gets a cable without extra payment) and the current situation (nobody gets a cable at all).

This pretty much sums it up. ED is trying to make the best out of a shitty situation and Craig is selling old refurbished units with and without defects for a very low price through GBAX and pocketing the money. Personally I'd say that if ED is taking care of all the pre orders, ED should also have all the units (broken, sent back, refurbished whatever), parts etc etc that are left and try to salvage every euro he can. 

Oh the riches I would have by now if I had Craig his lack of morals and sense of guilt. Which in fact makes him an even bigger idiot for being in debt. I really can't believe he can look himself in the eye selling Pandoras on GBAX and then not giving ED 100% of the proceeds. Even having the nerve of promoting it here!

I can fully understand BackAssward his feelings on this matter though. And it's hard to keep track of who to be pissed of with if you're not on the forums regularly. And then there's the problem that way back when it all started there was no talk of 2 different companies (not saying there weren't 2 companies, just saying that it wasn't communicated) but we were told to order from whatever shop was closest as it's all OPT and the shop choice would only determine who would physically send it. 

I was hoping that things would get better after the survey and plans could be made but now I know Craig is still keeping control of it and dripfeeding ED badly compliled information it looks as depressing as ever.

 

[BackAssward]

If the people who pre-ordered and paid for cables are going to be SOL and have that money dissapear, they should be notified (I'm not talking a 'nice to have' here, that is the bare minimum of due dilligence). Who to contact and/or blame. What is the future of this, etc.

Simply expecting them to come here and find out on their own is rediculous.

Also, the post about selling them at cost to preorderers and the post about a store voucher seem to be in slight conflict. As such, the most recent one would be the one to look at.

 

[pmprog]

Simply expecting them to come here and find out on their own is rediculous

Craig has mentioned several times that he's sending out emails to pre-orders. I don't know how successful he was at getting through them, but one of them was for a survey about upgrade options etc. etc.

If you didn't receive your mail, then it's probably worth trying to get in touch with Craig to find out why

 

[BackAssward]

Simply expecting them to come here and find out on their own is rediculous

Craig has mentioned several times that he's sending out emails to pre-orders. I don't know how successful he was at getting through them, but one of them was for a survey about upgrade options etc. etc.


If you didn't receive your mail, then it's probably worth trying to get in touch with Craig to find out why

Well, that's something if true. However, I haven't changed my email address with them, and they have me on file since I was in contact with Jaquelin last month. So, if I didn't get an email, how many others didn't also? If that is the case, how do the pre-orderes know they didn't get an email and need to contact Craig?

 

[Nagelfar]

If the people who pre-ordered and paid for cables are going to be SOL and have that money dissapear, they should be notified (I'm not talking a 'nice to have' here, that is the bare minimum of due dilligence). Who to contact and/or blame. What is the future of this, etc.


Simply expecting them to come here and find out on their own is rediculous.


Also, the post about selling them at cost to preorderers and the post about a store voucher seem to be in slight conflict. As such, the most recent one would be the one to look at.

Complain to craig (as I guess you ordered with him, right?) not here and not to ED. How to reach craig? No one knows.  ED never took over craigs customers, craigs customers are still craigs, that they are getting Pandoras (slowly but steadily) is only a matter of goodwill. If you had any money with craig it is gone now.

No one expects you to come here to find out anything, if you want to find out about the current status please contact the shop you ordered, just as you would do with Amazon or any other online retailer, complaining in a forum never helped anybody.

 

[BackAssward]

If the people who pre-ordered and paid for cables are going to be SOL and have that money dissapear, they should be notified (I'm not talking a 'nice to have' here, that is the bare minimum of due dilligence). Who to contact and/or blame. What is the future of this, etc.


Simply expecting them to come here and find out on their own is rediculous.


Also, the post about selling them at cost to preorderers and the post about a store voucher seem to be in slight conflict. As such, the most recent one would be the one to look at.

Complain to craig (as I guess you ordered with him, right?) not here and not to ED. How to reach craig? No one knows.  ED never took over craigs customers, craigs customers are still craigs, that they are getting Pandoras (slowly but steadily) is only a matter of goodwill. If you had any money with craig it is gone now.

No one expects you to come here to find out anything, if you want to find out about the current status please contact the shop you ordered, just as you would do with Amazon or any other online retailer, complaining in a forum never helped anybody.

Well, that's a fun thing: Party A says to talk to party B... party B says to talk to party A; when I asked them last month about the AV cables, I was sent here to the previous news post about the AV cables by Jacquelin.

As for complaining on a forum not helping anybody, what kind of BS is that, it often helps.  I already have more information than if I didn't post at all.  Hey, it got you to reply with information, didn't it?  Also, I would categorize my posts as more 'summation, concern, and confusion', than complaint.  E.g. saying that people need to be notified isn't a complaint, but more concern that they won't be.

Oh, and you do know that the website for open pandora was the one I ordered from, not gbax.  It is still the official site, and these forums are linked there as the official go-to place.  So for all apperences, these forums are the place to talk to someone about my order placed at openpandora.

 

[pmprog]

Well, that's something if true.

Only somebody else in the pre-order queue can tell you that. I'm not, so I wouldn't know.
However:

http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php/topic/10569-emails-to-remaining-preorders/

and

http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php/topic/12566-final-preorders-action-required/

If that is the case, how do the pre-orderes know they didn't get an email and need to contact Craig?

That's a fair point, but if Craig did email everybody and they didn't get the message, I guess he could try again, and what if your mail provider blocks his account? I guess short of him posting out snail mail to everybody (which would cost money he doesn't have), there's not much in the way of options.
Surely though, if you have an order outstanding, especially for this price, you would be keeping tabs on it's status, no?

 

[hmc]

Complaining publicly doesn't help anyone here:

If you complain publicly, this will discourage potential new buyers (to whom such preorder complaints do not apply at all, because they would be serviced immediately), but those new buyers are the ones who actually keep the project running by funding the project. So complaining publicly is completely counterproductive. 

 

[BackAssward]

If that is the case, how do the pre-orderes know they didn't get an email and need to contact Craig?

That's a fair point, but if Craig did email everybody and they didn't get the message, I guess he could try again, and what if your mail provider blocks his account? I guess short of him posting out snail mail to everybody (which would cost money he doesn't have), there's not much in the way of options.

Surely though, if you have an order outstanding, especially for this price, you would be keeping tabs on it's status, no?

Well, I know my email isn't blocking them, since I have an email from craig about the IPC2 BS, and one from Jackquelin from last month, so there's that.

As for the order, some people ordered an item not even having been to the forums, just like any average person does any average online transaction.  Also, for something of a lesser cost like a AV cable, it is easy to let that fall by the wayside.  Regardless, it really isn't the customer's responsibility to ensure they are kept up to date.  As for whether you or I would keep tabs on such a thing, that really isn't relevant.  What other people have as priorities, available time, and responsibilities isn't my place to comment.  I can only say that they shouldn't be expected to be keeping tabs on it.  Especially when it isn't exactly always easy to find the most important info in a forum.  We have unclear comments hidden deep in threads, conflicting statements, no clear indicator on what is an official post and what is a thread comment.  No, forums isn't the way a business should release important information in a scattered way.

The only middle ground I could suggest would be to not expect the average person to get their info from a forum, but the actuall official website.

 

[lingenfr]

This is kind of my point that allowing Craig on these forums isn't helping anyone other than possibly Craig in attracting new and still gullible customers to his website. He doesn't provide information and the perception that griping about Craig here gets action peppers these forums with negativity. I recommend that he be banned and all of the Craig-related griping posts be archived. Those wishing to communicate with Craig can do so via direct communication, his website or KS. Otherwise, this will never end.

FWIW, Craig has nothing to do with these TV-out cables and so is not relevant to the discussion. There is a pre-order thread where pre-ordered TV cables can be discussed. Crapping up so many threads with Craig-griping makes these forums a lot less useful. Also, to those in the US happy independence day.

 

[BackAssward]

Complaining publicly doesn't help anyone here:

If you complain publicly, this will discourage potential new buyers (to whom such preorder complaints do not apply at all, because they would be serviced immediately), but those new buyers are the ones who actually keep the project running by funding the project. So complaining publicly is completely counterproductive. 

You post makes no sense.

Half the posts are that as a consumer, I should go to the source and not here.  Yet this is the only place listed on the website that a customer can go. 

Your comment is trying to appeal to me not as a consumer but a forum member, and that any complaint could hurt the project.  That my concerns should be less important to me than what you think is important.

As a consumer, I don't see how a complaint is conterproductive in any way.  I don't feel I should censor myself and disregard what is important to me, but instead do what you think I should do (what you think is important).  Right now, my concern is about my pre-order, not about other potential customers.  And there is no reason it should be any other way.

As I already said, posting here has already provided a lot of help.  Both to me, and to anyone else like me who may come by wanting to know the things I want to know.

 

[BackAssward]

This is kind of my point that allowing Craig on these forums isn't helping anyone other than possibly Craig in attracting new and still gullible customers to his website. He doesn't provide information and the perception that griping about Craig here gets action peppers these forums with negativity. I recommend that he be banned and all of the Craig-related griping posts be archived. Those wishing to communicate with Craig can do so via direct communication, his website or KS. Otherwise, this will never end.

FWIW, Craig has nothing to do with these TV-out cables and so is not relevant to the discussion. There is a pre-order thread where pre-ordered TV cables can be discussed. Crapping up so many threads with Craig-griping makes these forums a lot less useful. Also, to those in the US happy independence day.

Well then, you better put that on the official website (Hey, if you baught an AV cable from GBAX, even though it was from this official wenbsite using the official email address, and you have no way to know you actually bought from gbax... then f-off, we won't help you). 

If people bought from there, there is no other place for them to go to find out what to do, than here.  Oh, and pre-orders for the AV cables from craig do certainly have a place here to talk about... ED posts about it himself.  Or are you going to delete his posts about it too?

Oh, and I didn't gripe about craig, I gripped that I knew nothing about my situation.  It was others who told me about craig.  So, would you also delete posts that would potentially/eventually lead to craig being mentioned?  As for a pre-order thread, is it in an obvious place?  Is it pinned up top in the openpandora news section (the place listed from the website)?  Is there an obvious and easy way for a non-forum member to know exactly where to go to get their info without siting through tons of posts?

Where is the oficial website's actuall user-friendly news section anyway, because this isn't it.  Some of you have the apperent misconception that customers also need to be members of the forum, educated on it's layout, and have hours to sift through hundreds of posts.  If that is what a customer should be, don't complain if people uninterested in such things, decide not to buy because of the rediculous requirements for being treated like a paying customer.

 

[pmprog]

Well, I know my email isn't blocking them, since I have an email from craig about the IPC2 BS, and one from Jackquelin from last month, so there's that.

So you have had some communication. I don't know what's in them (obviously), but I'm assuming Jacqueline's email wasn't about the weather.

Regardless, it really isn't the customer's responsibility to ensure they are kept up to date.

I agree, but if you hadn't heard from the seller for a long while, would some enquiring go amiss?

The only middle ground I could suggest would be to not expect the average person to get their info from a forum, but the actuall official website.

Again, I agree. And you can find information about it from the Homepage by clicking General Information -> Brief History of the Pandora.
I guess the problem with the website is how do you make it clear enough for the pre-orders, whilst still trying to encourage new purchases. If you went to a seller's page that had a "Are you still waiting for you unit from 2008? Click Here", you'd probably be looking a bit cynical, or at least sceptical, at the site and the seller.

 

[lingenfr]

Continued negativity that decreases the probability of a new person purchasing a Pandora isn't good for anyone, including you. By continuing rants and crapping up a majority of threads with Craig-bashing it reflects poorly on the Pandora and this site. Why would anyone pay the price of a Pandora with the perception that the manufacturers/distributors are unreliable and the community is negative and unhelpful. You are furthering that perception and in fact, that is not the case. The problem is Craig, not any of the current members of the team. I appreciate your situation and hope you get it resolved, but your tactic is working against sales which will delay or prevent your ever getting your Pandora. Not a good situation, but you are only making it worse.

 

[hmc]

Well put, lingenfr, that's what I meant exactly.

Sorry, BackAssward, that I maybe missed that detail for you to understand my point. I hope you understand it now.

 

[BackAssward]

So you have had some communication. I don't know what's in them (obviously), but I'm assuming Jacqueline's email wasn't about the weather.

Yup, I already posted that her replay was to visit EDs last thread on the AV cabled here.  Also, I am just locky that I know I bought from them. I actually bought from openpandora not gbax, so where do I go to find out what I need to know if not here? The only place linked on openpandora.

Well, that's a fun thing: Party A says to talk to party B... party B says to talk to party A; when I asked them last month about the AV cables, I was sent here to the previous news post about the AV cables by Jacquelin.

...

The only middle ground I could suggest would be to not expect the average person to get their info from a forum, but the actuall official website.

Again, I agree. And you can find information about it from the Homepage by clicking General Information -> Brief History of the Pandora.
I guess the problem with the website is how do you make it clear enough for the pre-orders, whilst still trying to encourage new purchases. If you went to a seller's page that had a "Are you still waiting for you unit from 2008? Click Here", you'd probably be looking a bit cynical, or at least sceptical, at the site and the seller.

True. But where does that leave people. I'm told not to complain here but to rifle through threads to find info (which isn't a fair request of me or any customer). And the info won't be posted on the site because it looks bad. So, we're left with no actuall suggestions of what a customer can do.