First impressions of my Pandy... mixed feelings...

[scippie]

This post has been promoted to an article

 

[richiz]

First off update to latest hotfix. I haven't experienced any of the issues above after updating to this hotfix.





I went through similar disappointments but after you get things up and going you'll be happy.

1. Power Standby is pointless I know. I think we're waiting for a suspend to ram which should last ages. Don't think it's gonna happen for a while though.
   
2. Scrap midori and arora. Delete any shortcuts you have for them and quickly assign them to history. Then download Fennec and firefox
   
   I'm a fennec fan but use Firefox every now and again.
   
3. Don't use the app store, instead use the Wiki http://pandorawiki.org/Main_Page 0
   The app store is misleading as it appears to be official but in reality it's rarely updated and as of January 2010 (may have been updated now) the app store was still hosting a snes emulator with a bunch of bugs which had been fixed in October. So in short forget the app store. It really should be junked as people are going there thinking it's official and downloading software with bugs that had been fixed a long time ago. Case in point, I was using the snes emu off there (got mine in Jan) and wondering why the save states werent working. Went to the wiki and downloaded a snes emulator with a bunch of bugs fixed and a new rom picker. The wiki is here and community managed and pretty much updated as soon as somethings released.
   
4. Mini menu is awesome, check it out. XFCE is an overbloated waste of time and should only be used if you're going to be multi tasking. If you're just booting up to web browse or play x game/emulator why do you even need a full desktop?
   

Please flash to latest firmware and let us know how you get on...it'd be a shame to get all in a huff to then realise you were using an old firmware full of bugs. My Pandy is extremely stable and I don't get most of the issues you describe.

 

[Bosbeetle]

I wont comment on all your complaints but only on number 11. There isn't a phone around that can charge when it's of, it also starts up or goes into a low power mode but never off.


Most of your problems I don't recognize you could try to put HF4 on it again (if you didnt already) remember the OS is a work in progress. Btw you don't need to use xcfe you can start up in minimenu and have your lightweight desktop environment you want.

 

[Blue Protoman]

Explanation time.


1. You're holding it too long. To go in and out of low power mode, simply hold it to the right until it hits the edge, then let go. Hold it too long and you'll reboot the system.


2. Don't use the built-in browsers. They're bad builds, I think. Download Firefox or Chromium (with your PC) and use those.


3. If the program in question is on your SD card, check the left side of the unit; whenever there's SD card activity, one of two lights blinks. Also, remember that Up on the right nub double-clicks.


7. You expect everything to work immediately? Quoth Craigix, "Oh go and buy a PSP"


9. The icon itself can be a bit fiddly; press the Pandora button (the real, tangible one) to bring it up.


10. It's because we can't use the DSP yet. (All I can say, dunno much about this.)


11. It's because of the way the hardware works; the CPU handles most of the charging.


12. It's probably the software. Don't touch the nubs during boot-up.


That's all I can speak for.

 

[debernardis]

Your unit might be defective. I have mine since jan 21st and none of the problems you report have appeared. I have only found that both Midori and Arora are unstable, and use Firefox for browsing. And I agree that it consumes too much while in standby. But found no problems of slowness or instability of menus or configs. So you better send your Pandy back and ask for a new unit.

 

[WizardStan]

The power-switch: why does it sometimes work fine but usually doesn't respond until having tried it about 10 times or so. Why does it even sometimes reboot the pandora instead of putting it in or out standby? (I don't touch any other button, I first thought that was the reason)

Sounds like a loose battery, actually. Try some folded tissue in the battery compartment to hold it tighter against the pins, see if that helps in any way.

Why does the OS (Xfce) respond relatively good for a while and then doesn't react to almost anything I try anymore? For example: browse with Midori to the Pandora apps site, and download something: usually it works, sometimes Midori crashes... only a full OS reboot will make the system stable again because most things will no longer work.

Midori crashes a lot. Don't use it. It's there because it is lightweight and once they figure out why it keeps crashing it's actually a pretty good browser. Most people use either Chromium or Firefox, downloadable from the app store. Other than that, you'll have to be more specific about your instability.

Why do I never know what the Pandy is doing when I am waiting... waiting... waiting... maybe for nothing to happen? I click a menu option and....... nothing happens. Clicking it again will not solve it.


<snip>

Ok, slow and buggy OS? That is not my experience at all. I don't have an application on my Pandora that doesn't do something within 2 seconds of starting. The menu is snappy. Seriously, no idea what you're talking about. :/


As far as the OS, it runs Linux. There is no "text only" OS. The two front ends it has are XFCE, a full and complete desktop, and minimenu, a finger friendly simple interface. Both are very fast for me. You shouldn't have the time to think about clicking something three times before the first one shows up.

I understand that the OS is still buggy, but why is it soooo buggy? I open up an SD of mine, I browse it fine and then all of a sudden, I go into a folder and nothing happens... I can go back, but can't go further. I've had this with FAT32 and NTFS SD's.

That's Thunar. It's supposed to be fixed in HF5.

The Pandy has been designed for lots of purposes, but the most important is gaming and especially retro-gaming (because new games need to be made first). Lots of emulators can be found on the apps store but some don't work, or work very badly, or when they work fine, the controls really suck and I don't want to configure my controls over and over again for 1000's of games I want to try out. Honestly: when I can't get the controls right from the second time, I lose interest and blame the game... but it's the pandy that is to be blamed: it should work right away. Yesterday, I was playing spy hunter on the C64. Today the controls no longer worked... what's up with that?

You're the first person to complain about controls in vice, I believe.

What's up with the Wifi? I read that people get up to 600KiB/s but I can't even stream a video through my network (that is extremely fast on all other devices) at around 140KiB/s (space 1999 is so great). I read that changing the channel on my router might help but when I don't need to change it for other (portable/non-portable) devices, why should I do it for the Pandy? And even if I change it, I notice that my other devices go slower... that's not right...

Can't tell you anything other than they're working on it. HF5 has a lot of new fixes to the wifi that seems to have helped a lot of people.

Again about the OS: user-friendly??? Sometimes when I push the pandora-start-menu, it opens up after several seconds (so I have pushed again of course). I then get the menu and when I select something, the menu does not disappear (at least that what seems). The selected application starts up but... there is another instance of the menu still open. I can only close that instance by selecting a menu item... Whot??? Why does the OS allow multiple instances of the main menu??? I mean, come on... And then almost all settings windows are too big to fit on the screen! Yea, “shift”-”arrows” to move it does the trick but again... I mean, come on... you know that the screen will always be 800x480, just do it right!

Yeah, that's known They're working on it.

Power consumption: yeah, 10 hours + is great, but why does it have to use that much power in standby? I recently read that standby has been sped up to 125Mhz because it doesn't make a difference. Why do you think that is? Because it's the circuitry around it that take way too much power. A standby mode should have it's own circuit. When I put my smartphone in standby and leave it for a week, it will still have lots of battery power at the end of that week, while I can consume the whole battery in 4 hours by using it heavily. I should be able to charge the Pandy once a week and use it for 2 hours every day. By the way: remember my 100Mhz pentium example? Why does a standby need 125Mhz?

125Mhz was chosen because that's the maximum speed the specification says is valid at the lowest voltage for the CPU. It was originally 14Mhz, the lowest clock speed it can go, but it was discovered that it didn't make a difference whether it was 14 or 125, so it was bumped to 125: in this way, you can actually put it into low power mode and it still be somewhat functional, doing some work, possibly even playing MP3s, at effectively no additional cost.


And the reason it doesn't make much difference has nothing to do with circuitry as you say, it is because the ARM CPU is very clever about energy consumption and the important part was getting it slow enough to reduce the voltage going to the processor.


The reason the Pandora doesn't have as effective a standby yet is because it still isn't shutting everything it can off. It turns down the CPU, shuts off the GPU, LCD, and Wifi, but so much is still live. There's still power going to the nubs, there's still power going to the USB, there's still a lot of things being powered that can effectively be shut off that would save a lot more power, which is exactly how cell phones do it as well: there is no "other circuit" as you suggest: it is one circuit, it's simply that various chips are disabled in low power. The reason your cell phone can do this so well where the Pandora can't is because your cell phone has hundreds of developers using well documented systems working overtime. The Pandora has a couple of guys doing some work in their spare time because they want to.

That's another proof of it: you can 't charge it when totally shut down. Why do you think that is the case? Because that complete circuitry needs power to ask the processor what to do with the incoming power: that's why you can't shut it down and charge it. This also means that the Pandy could be charged almost twice as fast without it. This should be another chip! I am quite sure I could do it with something like a 8055 chip that consumes next to nothing.

You can't charge a cell phone with it totally shut down anymore either. Most phones have a microkernel that loads up instantly and handles the charge, but make no mistake: the phone is still "on". The Pandora can have the same thing, it simply doesn't for the same reason as mentioned above. You'll have to tell me about this 8055 though. I can't find any information on it. Is it superior to the TWL we've already got in any way? Are you certain it can handle lipo batteries? I've recently discovered lipo to be an entirely different beast from li-ion.

Sometimes the nubs don't seem to work very good. I like to use the left nub as mouse and sometimes I can move the pointer fast and sometimes it just won't go faster than terribly slow. Moving it to the center and then again to the left usually solves it. I never have this problem to the right. (yes I know what calibration is) Is this a problem with the nub-hardware or is this software related? I fear that it's the first and that the nubs are still not what they should be...

Turn off mouse acceleration.

It is not at all my intention to piss anyone off with this list, I'm just being realistic here.

I don't think you are being realistic though. You've listed a lot of problems that no one else seems to be experiencing, as well some major misunderstandings about how low power and charge circuits work.


I also think your suggestion to write an entirely new OS is naive. The choice to go with Linux was natural as that gave automatic access to a huge array of games and applications already. If you build an OS from scratch you have nothing.

 

[EvilDragon]

Why does the OS (Xfce) respond relatively good for a while and then doesn't react to almost anything I try anymore? For example: browse with Midori to the Pandora apps site, and download something: usually it works, sometimes Midori crashes... only a full OS reboot will make the system stable again because most things will no longer work.

Midori crashes a lot. Don't use it. It's there because it is lightweight and once they figure out why it keeps crashing it's actually a pretty good browser. Most people use either Chromium or Firefox, downloadable from the app store. Other than that, you'll have to be more specific about your instability.

It's known why it crashes: That's a problem with the combination of WebKit / GTK+ on the OS.


Fixed with more recent versions, so it will be fixed once the next BIG firmware is finished (not just a hotfix).


The first Alpha test might be starting next week.

I understand that the OS is still buggy, but why is it soooo buggy? I open up an SD of mine, I browse it fine and then all of a sudden, I go into a folder and nothing happens... I can go back, but can't go further. I've had this with FAT32 and NTFS SD's.

That's Thunar. It's supposed to be fixed in HF5.

Not fixed in HF5, it's the same issue with GTK+ that Midori has.


Temporary fix: Don't use Detail View, then it won't happen.


Otherwise, wait for the next big OS.

The Pandy has been designed for lots of purposes, but the most important is gaming and especially retro-gaming (because new games need to be made first). Lots of emulators can be found on the apps store but some don't work, or work very badly, or when they work fine, the controls really suck and I don't want to configure my controls over and over again for 1000's of games I want to try out. Honestly: when I can't get the controls right from the second time, I lose interest and blame the game... but it's the pandy that is to be blamed: it should work right away. Yesterday, I was playing spy hunter on the C64. Today the controls no longer worked... what's up with that?

For the same game?


I doubt that happens, as it never happened for me and I play C64 a lot.


Don't forget that a C64 has two joystick ports. Most games used Port 2, some used Port 1 for the first joystick though.


So all you need to do is swap the port in the menu and that's it.


That's not an issue with the Pandora, that's how the C64 worked actually.


I have no idea what other emulators have problems with controls, they all work fine for me, and worked right away.


Care to share some light of which emulators have borked controls for you?

Again about the OS: user-friendly??? Sometimes when I push the pandora-start-menu, it opens up after several seconds (so I have pushed again of course). I then get the menu and when I select something, the menu does not disappear (at least that what seems). The selected application starts up but... there is another instance of the menu still open. I can only close that instance by selecting a menu item... Whot??? Why does the OS allow multiple instances of the main menu??? I mean, come on... And then almost all settings windows are too big to fit on the screen! Yea, “shift”-”arrows” to move it does the trick but again... I mean, come on... you know that the screen will always be 800x480, just do it right!

Well, the desktop is that of a standard PC.


You are very welcome to grab the sourcecodes of the apps where the windows are to big, rearrange them and send us the patches for them.


You'd make some users happy.


The Pandora is a device for running OpenSource software - the software itself is contributed and created by the community.


You are part of that community, so if there's something that annoys you a lot, why not help out to fix it?

It is not at all my intention to piss anyone off with this list, I'm just being realistic here.

Well, everything you posted seems to be software related.


The software is done by the community for the community, so basically, the whole community is to be blamed.


The core team is made up of some very active and helpful guys who didn't get any money for that yet, more and more devs just started to help out.


You mention you did your own OS?


Well, then it shouldn't be hard for you to fix some flaws here and send us patches as well.

 

[tsh]

You miss the point completely with standby mode. No multi-tasking smartphone OS handles standby well at the moment. Android on my Toshiba tablet is just the same. From my perspective, none of your issues are particularly important priorities to work on, but I guess they will improve eventually.

 

[richiz]

I would put suspend to ram as pretty important.

 

[Anihil8ion2199]

I got my Pandora while HF5 RC1 was available, and can attest to the fact that HF5 RC1 (and now RC2) work noticeably better than HF4. It's a good idea to update. I really like Midori, but it does crash, and I'll be waiting for a fix on that. My opinion has been that the software is further along than I thought it would be before getting my Pandora.

 

[chris_c]

That's another proof of it: you can 't charge it when totally shut down.

WRONG! on a number of different levels


Charging is actually very little to do with the cpu, its controlled by the twl4030 while TI didn't release a datasheet for this chip the pin and function compatible TPS65950 has a data sheet - as well as a charging circuit it has a fair bit of other functionality sound, usb etc.


Programming the setting for this chip is far from a trivial task it's very flexible but geared towards mobile phone use, it is likely possible to shutdown the cpu and a lot of other stuff and have the right power switch mode be very, very low power mode. Its also possible that wake on alarm functionality may be achievable - but its not going to happen overnight. These are far from trivial things to just hack together!


running in the current "low power" mode gets you a good 24hrs use even running a light weight console audio player


Which considering whats still running is exceptional...


The OMAP can also shutdown bits of itself that are not in use - for example the dsp if not used is probably consuming practically no power - other sub systems have similar behavior


For many reasons the full potential of the machine is yet to come - the more of the community that contribute the sooner it happens - even if its gui patches it takes the pressure of others to do deeper stuff...


So how do I know these details about the hardware? - am I some kind of "expert"? (be wary of anyone claiming to be an "expert") - No I'm no expert - but I do have google and a pdf reader and I know how to use both!


So before making any assumptions about the hardware I made sure I knew my facts.....

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

also some power switches are a little stiff.This would mean the switch is only just making contact. Thus only sometimes turning on or off.Push the switch to the right with a little force.It should click into place and be fine.At least this was the problem on mine.

 

[scippie]

Hi all,


I need to apologize now... I had seen this video of the mini menu some months ago and it looked like a pure text-mode screen back then. So that's why I hadn't tried it. Much work must have happened since... I tried it out this evening and hooray, that's just what I was talking about above: the slick looking right to the point screen. It works fast and it even starts up programs that won't start in Xfce (how can this be? the OS is the same?). Only settings screens should also be implemented into it, but I am quite sure that that is the intention...


So, forget everything I said about the OS, maybe even inform people better about what GUI to choose. I think the manual that comes with the Pandy is much too brief: no explanation about the power-switch, no explanation about the different GUI's, etc... I know there's the manual from users for users but as you can see, it didn't learn me what I had to know.


Now about some answers: I already upgraded to HF5 RC2, and still have those problems. Of course I have already tried other browsers than Midori. I tried Fennec and Chromium. Fennec has also crashed on me. And when I try to download something in Chromium to a different location than the default Download folder that doesn't seem to point anywhere (?where are the files that were downloaded there? I can't open its location, it doesn't do anything), the download just won't start at all for some reason. Of course I am speaking when used inside Xfce, but I don't think it should make a difference...


I also read that the apps store isn't the official one, that should be pointed out better I believe...


I will check out all the tips about the nubs, vice controls, ... thanks for those.


Anyways, I hope you all don't hate me now and I hope my love for the Pandy will only grow from now on.


Thanks,


Dirk.

 

[gruso]

Most points addressed, but here's my take anyway.


1. That's not normal. At first I thought BP's was right about holding it too long, but Stan's loose / poor contact battery theory sounds pretty likely.


2. That's not normal either. On the topic of web browsers though, I second the idea of getting Firefox or Chrome.


3. Again, not normal. I do find the XCFE menus a little 'sticky' though, maybe this is what you're describing? XFCE on my desktop PC has similar behaviour.


4. Again, not the usual experience. at this point I think you need to flash your firmware. Grab Hotfix5 RC2.


5. I hear what you're saying about our snappy old computers. My 16mhz XT clone, running Dosshell or Xtree, was like lightning. Good times. It feels like there are so many more layers between us and the hardware now. The Pandora desktop can and will be optimised over time. XFCE isn't the fastest desktop environment, but strikes the best balance between performance and usability out of the box (assuming normal conditions, not the issues you're having). Poke around the forums for LXDE too, it's a faster option that you may like better.


6. Sounds like the Thunar bug. Are you in list view by any chance? Try icon view. (Yeah I know, ugh.)


7. Generic advice: Are you making sure to save global config after adjusting controls ? Are you having this issue in other emulators? Remember homebrew coding is done by many individuals, playing to their own rules and standards. If a feature is left out of an app it's not the Pandora's fault.


8. It does appear to be inconsistent between devices. However, if the advice is to experiment with channels, that's what you have to do rather than be indignant about other devices not needing it. OP Ltd attempted to pay big bucks to get drivers, and they got nothing. So like most things it fell back to the same couple of people who have done everything else. Have patience, it will get better. Again, the latest Hotfix should contain noticeable improvements.


9. Some mixed points here. (i) Sounds like an unusual bug, get HF5. (ii) All in good time!


10. Proper standby is coming. Once again the unpaid Notaz will catch that ball by default, and it's a mammoth task, akin to writing drivers.


11. Feature not bug Proper standby would fix this I guess.


12. With revision 1 of the nubs, we had the 'nub dance', a manual calibration routine you would run on bootup. The new nubs are said not to need it, but it might be worth trying (in addition to adjusting mouse acceleration settings suggested earlier). To do the nub dance, center the nubs and reboot the unit. While the Pandora logo is on screen, push both nubs up to the top, then release and let them go to center. Then bottom, release, left, release, and repeat for the bootup period.


---------------------------------------------


In summary, get the latest Hotfix. Hotfix 5 RC2 is essentially a full firmware flash (it will be a PND-format 'updater' soon) but I think the reflash is the way to go for you anwyay.


I'll also say that even putting aside some of the unique issues you seem to be having, you're not alone in needing to warm to it a little. My first days were shaky, as the device was unlike anything I'd ever used. It has the kind of quirks you expect to find in a device that is not just meant for homebrew, but has effectively been homebrewed itself. I thought the GP2X would have prepared me suitably, but no, the Pandora is another animal all together. I wrote a story about my shaky first day(s) here.


[edit] Just missed your last post. Disregard anything irrelevant in mine! And no, no one is gong to hate you. If you only read one of my paragraphs, read the last one.

 

[fraseyboy]

1. Don't use the app store, instead use the Wiki http://pandorawiki.org/Main_Page 0
   The app store is misleading as it appears to be official but in reality it's rarely updated and as of January 2010 (may have been updated now) the app store was still hosting a snes emulator with a bunch of bugs which had been fixed in October. So in short forget the app store. It really should be junked as people are going there thinking it's official and downloading software with bugs that had been fixed a long time ago. Case in point, I was using the snes emu off there (got mine in Jan) and wondering why the save states werent working. Went to the wiki and downloaded a snes emulator with a bunch of bugs fixed and a new rom picker. The wiki is here and community managed and pretty much updated as soon as somethings released.
   

Really? Why doesn't someone do something about it? The wiki isn't exactly Pandora friendly and the app store really succeeds at this. Wouldn't there be a way to feed all new wiki releases to the app store?

 

[Asiyura]

Really? Why doesn't someone do something about it? The wiki isn't exactly Pandora friendly and the app store really succeeds at this. Wouldn't there be a way to feed all new wiki releases to the app store?

Because the app store is maintained by Craig IIRC.


Since he still have lots of Pandoras to build, he doesn't have enough time to tinker the app store.


-This a personal hypothesis and may not reflect the reality-

 

[ibisum]

There are alternatives to the App Store in the works, and from what I can see some quite *Excellent* solutions too .. just be patient. The beta is in progress.


As for the other points: are you aware that the Pandora will not shut down if it is connected to power?

 

[MarioPandio]

If your already on HF5 RC2 and still getting this weird behaviour in XFCE then it sounds like a bad flash somehow. Start over.


Give Skeezix your minimenu feedback in the relevant thread in the beta testing forum as he's always looking for more feedback and useful suggestions.


As ED said, if you can help patch any issues in the OS as you have the know how then please do, as many will thank you for removing the little quirks like the larger screens than the real estate etc.


Glad you like your Pandora now, hope you get the rest sorted


edit : This project of WizardStans maybe of interest to you too

 

[craigix]

I've asked many times for someone to help me keep the appstore up to date.


The latest SNES emu is there though. Actually it all looks up to date in most cases.


If you tell me I'll fix issues.

 

[maplesugarlover]

Craigix, use the wiki lists to keep the appstore up to date