Do You Intend To Re-order?

[chaoskid42]

I don't know if I'm gonna reorder. I only got one so I could be one of the first people to have one, but now I'm not sure I really want one.

 

[Frogboy]

Add me to the second batch list since I answered the question incorrectly or I guess I should say, prematurely. I originally planned on reordering if I had to and didn't really think much of it until I got the Nigerian Prince email from Craig and the Pandora team. I won't directly accuse them of fraud and don't really think that even but I'm not willing to wager over $350 on it. There just seem to be too many things that could go wrong between now and whenever it is that I would receive my Pandora, if ever. I guess I’m not the gambling type.


Here’s my list of concerns and you guys can dispute them if you’d like. I’d actually like you to do so but as far as I know, these are all facts (or real posibilities) and just make this whole thing too risky for me until I can just order a Pandora and they, or a more local retailer, can just send it to me.

1. The bank that Craig and the Pandora team used to take our initial orders bailed out on them and refunded almost everyone’s money. Obviously, the bank had concerns, enough to turn down all of the money.

2. Whether intentional or not, they pulled a classic bait and switch. Many protected credit card orders are now being directly deposited in their bank accounts with no protection or recourse if you never get your Pandora.

3. The credit card order page still isn’t available and there seems to be this reorder ASAP so that I don’t get nailed on the conversion rates metality, further pushing the previous entry. Obviously the conversion rate thing doesn’t apply to England and possibly Germany (Evil Dragon’s shop?).

4. Whether you want to face it or not, there is the potential that this could, in fact, be a Nigerian Prince scam. I’m not saying that it is but all of the hallmarks are now present.

5. There is now or will soon be over a million dollars (US equivalent) sitting in their bank account(s) that they could just take if they wanted to. A lot of it will have been just freely given to them.

6. Even if all or almost all of the Pandora team are on the up and up, if just one person who has access to the bank account wanted to, he or she could clear it out, disappear and leave most of you and the rest of the team in a very bad place. I have friends that I’ve known for most of my life that I wouldn’t trust giving them access to that much money. I’d like to think that they wouldn’t take it but I wouldn’t take the chance or wouldn’t be all that shocked if they did. I don’t even personally know one member of the team. I’d like to think that they are all cool guys but I can’t take the chance.

7. To the best of my knowledge, they don’t have all of the parts needed yet and don’t know when they are going to. They still need the LCD screens. They still need the cases. Heck, they don’t even have all of the money yet. I really don’t see how they will be able to take all of the orders, get the parts, assemble several units by hand, finish writing the firmware, test out everything that it can do accurately, secure the manufacturing process, ship all of the parts over to the plant, get back all of the assembled Pandoras back, package them up and ship them all out to everyone who ordered. Jan/Feb seems like a best case scenario to me and one that I’d be surprised if they made. It’d be great if they did but I’m not expecting it. No ones know for sure when Pandora will be shipping.


I hate to sound so distrusting but it is just too risky for me. I was under the impression when I ordered that this thing was just about finished and ready to go. All they needed to do was send the parts over to the plant and in a few weeks, the first production Pandoras would be going through the process of shipping out. Now it appears that the firmware and GUI aren’t even fully ready yet. It doesn’t look like it is so close to finished yet even though they are talking about late Dec or January as being likely ship dates. Sorry, I have other things that I can do with that money until they have a finished product and won’t have to worry about any of the above or anything else that I’m not thinking of, going wrong.

I apologize if I offended anyone or caused any problems and I’m not trying to freak people out or anything. I just don’t think that many of you have considered the potential risks involved in this whole process.

 

[gaterooze]

This probably won't put you at ease, but I'll say it anyway... ED, Craigix, mfk and the other Pandora devs have supported this community for many years and have always been above reproach in their businesses.

More objectively, they stand to make a *lot* more money by actually going through with this thing than by running off to the bahamas now with all of our cash. For a start, they had to mortgage their homes to fund the process in the first place (they had spent hundreds of thousands before even taking preorders, remember, the preorder money will just let them break even!). If this was a scam, they wouldn't make any money, they'd lose their property and be fugitives forever. Not very smart. But if they ship the first batch and then take orders for the second? THEN they will start to see the big money, and every batch thereafter. Why rob a bank when you can own one instead?

Remember, they have spent many months developing this and dozens of people have real Pandoras in their possession (just missing the cases/controls, but they're the *cheap* parts). Texas Instruments is even supporting the project, I doubt they would have got in bed with them without seeing sound business plans and finances.

So relax mate

 

[TaG]

I hate to sound so distrusting but it is just too risky for me. I was under the impression when I ordered that this thing was just about finished and ready to go...

I apologize if I offended anyone or caused any problems and I’m not trying to freak people out or anything. I just don’t think that many of you have considered the potential risks involved in this whole process.
I'm not going to argue with most of your post. If any individual considers something risky, or dodgy, there is often little that can be said to change their mind and people have different tolerance levels. Most of those that have been following for any length of time feel 'part of it' and have built up that trust.

I'll give you the point about how complete it was/wasn't at the time of pre-orders. It still seems like there is a lot of work to do and we may never know if all of the stuff outstanding was delayed as some knock-on of the re-order situation or not. At the end of the day we all signed up for a device that wasn't complete and should have expected some delays. Whether the level of delays is 'reasonable' is down to each individual. Openpandora's saving grace is there is still nothing to compete with it.

More objectively, they stand to make a *lot* more money by actually going through with this thing than by running off to the bahamas now with all of our cash. For a start, they had to mortgage their homes to fund the process in the first place (they had spent hundreds of thousands before even taking preorders, remember, the preorder money will just let them break even!).
Having raised hundreds of thousands they obviously had a bit of equity - it would have been a damn site easier to sell up and go to the Bahamas than put themselves through this crazy stuff. It would have been a better scam if they hadn't done any refunds too.

I am 100% certain this is not a scam, because if it were they would be really incompetent scam artists. The major problems seem to be around understanding the amount of time/effort required and the communication. They can be forgiven for not foreseeing some of the things that have happened and they have taken steps to address the communication. But every time they say something people dispute it, argue about it, say they would have preferred something else etc.

Let's hope it is resolved soon so that we can get back to the fun stuff.

 

[TheBrainSquid]

I just got my email today and my refund should be here within 3 days it says. I'm reordering as soon as I get the refund, joy.

 

[Frogboy]

This probably won't put you at ease, but I'll say it anyway... ED, Craigix, mfk and the other Pandora devs have supported this community for many years and have always been above reproach in their businesses.

More objectively, they stand to make a *lot* more money by actually going through with this thing...

Like I said though, it only takes one person to betray the rest. That's still a reasonable concern. Also, if this project fails for any reason, everyone who preordered is out their money. It's just a risk that I'm not willing to take. I'm sure someone else will gladly take my spot.

Most of those that have been following for any length of time feel 'part of it' and have built up that trust.

I've be a pretty active member for a little over a year now. I started following it when they first released the info to the public back when they were still calling it the Craiginator because they didn't have or hadn't yet decided on the name. I do feel like I can trust Craig and the Pandora team and had enough trust to place the preorder in the first place (the first time I’ve ever pre-ordered anything before). That's what scares me.

I'll give you the point about how complete it was/wasn't at the time of pre-orders. It still seems like there is a lot of work to do and we may never know if all of the stuff outstanding was delayed as some knock-on of the re-order situation or not. At the end of the day we all signed up for a device that wasn't complete and should have expected some delays.

I don't like the fact that they told us that the actual manufacturing was going to start one week after orders closed and are obviously nowhere near ready for that. They are still calling for December/January and I don't see how that would even be possible. This kind of false or misleading information doesn't ease any concerns, really.

More objectively, they stand to make a *lot* more money by actually going through with this thing than by running off to the bahamas now with all of our cash.

Do you know the difference between a hustler and a good con-man? A hustler has to get out of town as quick as he can, but a good con-man - he doesn't have to leave until he wants to.

- Gabriel Caine, Diggstown 1992 MGM


Sorry, this quote seemed relevant. Point being, there are lots of ways this could play out. Everyone might even feel sorry Craig and the Pandora team if/when everything goes under as opposed to chasing him out of town with torches and pitchforks.

More objectively, they stand to make For a start, they had to mortgage their homes to fund the process in the first place (they had spent hundreds of thousands before even taking preorders, remember, the preorder money will just let them break even!).

This information could easily be false. I'm guessing that this info comes directly from them.

Having raised hundreds of thousands they obviously had a bit of equity - it would have been a damn site easier to sell up and go to the Bahamas than put themselves through this crazy stuff. It would have been a better scam if they hadn't done any refunds too.

It doesn’t seem that they had a choice in the matter as far as refunds go. Of course, the possibility exists that the refunds are just to get you to do the wire transfer. If it is a scam, it’s obviously not over yet either.

I am 100% certain this is not a scam, because if it were they would be really incompetent scam artists. The major problems seem to be around understanding the amount of time/effort required and the communication. They can be forgiven for not foreseeing some of the things that have happened and they have taken steps to address the communication. But every time they say something people dispute it, argue about it, say they would have preferred something else etc.

I beg to differ. I think that it would be a brilliant scam really. Friends are the easiest marks. A little tinkering, some spare parts, add a dash of Photoshop, a few 3D renders. Heck, let’s even ask the people that we are scamming exactly what they want and pretend to give it to them. Promise the world for a reasonable price and have them willingly deposit millions of dollars of nonrefundable cash without having to produce anything except for hope, which ironically will be lost when Pandora’s box is opened. Maybe they’ll even send out empty boxes or something so that you can actually open the box, release foreboding and be consumed by hopelessness. That is frakkin’ brilliant if you ask me.


Again, I’m not making accusations or anything. These are just possibilities. Sorry, maybe this is common practice in England but I personally wouldn’t wire transfer money to Microsoft to purchase something. Red flags go up in my head when that’s even mentioned as a payment method let alone the suggested and only one available. When I saw that, I figured that I'd come here and everyone would be going crazy but it's quite the opposite. I seem to be in the large minority of people who don't have 100% faith in this whole thing anymore. I really do hope everything works out the way we are all expecting. For real, I want a Pandora just as much as all of you. I'll have to wait for mine though.

 

[mali]

I beg to differ. I think that it would be a brilliant scam really. Friends are the easiest marks. A little tinkering, some spare parts, add a dash of Photoshop, a few 3D renders. Heck, let’s even ask the people that we are scamming exactly what they want and pretend to give it to them. Promise the world for a reasonable price and have them willingly deposit millions of dollars of nonrefundable cash without having to produce anything except for hope, which ironically will be lost when Pandora’s box is opened. Maybe they’ll even send out empty boxes or something so that you can actually open the box, release foreboding and be consumed by hopelessness. That is frakkin’ brilliant if you ask me.

Oh my!

The problem is, that the info isn't easy to access at once, you have to do a little work to see the whole picture. What you write is nonsense, but I'm really too lazy now, to gather the right info in the right order and post it here. Look at the following link to see some of what is going on right now:
http://www.codejedi.com/cgi-bin/blog.cgi
This info is from skeezix, who got a dev-board and takes the time to let us participate.
Thanks skeezix, wesbrown18 and cpasjuste

 

[salasq]

I think that it would be a brilliant scam really.

Brilliant by no means. Return-for-effort ratio would be horribly low, were it a scam.

 

[Olexxy]

@Frogboy
That would be a hell of a very elaborated scam and involving not just Craig and core team but also lots of known developers... The scam of the century I would say ^^

 

[TaG]

@Frogboy.
You have concerns, fair enough. But you do not want a response that would reassure you, so why keep posting? You've made your point. Several times.

 

[Prometheus]

Um, can I just ask how long Craig, ED, and everyone else involved have been doing business? As far as Craig goes, I've been purchasing stuff from GBAX since at least 2003, and I'm fairly sure others have done the same as well. I'm not quite sure if the business has been around longer, though.

If it's a scam, it's a really incredibly intricate one, to be doing good business in retro/open-gaming related fields for over half a decade before producing this machine, isn't it?

 

[Frogboy]

That would be a hell of a very elaborated scam and involving not just Craig and core team but also lots of known developers... The scam of the century I would say ^^

I don't see why the devs would have to be in on it. What do they have right now, beagle boards? Maybe a handful have the actual SoC to work with from what I know.

You have concerns, fair enough. But you do not want a response that would reassure you, so why keep posting? You've made your point. Several times.

Fair enough but I feel that some people, especially some of the younger ones here, might not know what they are getting themselves into. $300+ is a good amount of money especially to a fresh out of highschool kid who works for a minimum salary. They should know that if anything goes wrong and this project goes south, they are out that money. Most people didn't take that chance the first time we ordered because it was done by credit card and had a little protection involved. Wire transfers are pretty much like paying cash. If you are fine with that then more power to you.

If it's a scam, it's a really incredibly intricate one, to be doing good business in retro/open-gaming related fields for over half a decade before producing this machine, isn't it?

I didn't say it was a scam, just that it has the potential to be. Whoever's idea it was to suggest and accept wire transfer as a (or the) form of payment made a serious error in judgement...unless this is a scam of course. That's what we refer to as shady business practices. If this were an American based business, the Better Business Bureau would almost certainly be investigating them right now to make sure they were legitimate.

I'm not trying to start a coup or anything and I really hope everything works out for the better of the community. I really do. I just have to let people know that there is a potential danger here. If I didn't, I'd feel really bad that I didn't say anything. I really don't like the idea that I could easily get chased out of the community but sometimes you just have to speak (and answer others posts when they address you).

 

[mali]

1.
Pandora:
http://www.codejedi.com/blogmedia/entertai...ra/IMG_1037.JPG
Beagle Board:
http://beagleboard.org/hardware

2.
I'm nearly 33 and 249€ is a top deal for that hardware. Don't buy something you can't afford. That's the rule of thumb in general.

3.
This is not an American company. Bank transfer is very usual in EU.

 

[TaG]

I really don't like the idea that I could easily get chased out of the community but sometimes you just have to speak (and answer others posts when they address you).

I don't think anyone is out to chase you from the community - yet. That's why I say, at this point, leave it be a while. You've raised your points, people have heard your message. If you say it too much you sound like a crackpot evangelist.

The one bit we would like you, and others to understand, is that bank transfers are a valid form of payment. They are not as secure as credit card and paypal isn't an option.

 

[Eniko]

I don't know about any other place but in the Netherlands bank transfers as a form of payment are not odd at all. In fact there is a system called Ideal intended to facilitate ordering from online shops by bank transfer, so all you need to do is a quick logon on your online banking system and the money is automagically transferred without going through all the steps yourself.

Even more so than that; credit cards aren't used much at all. Plenty of people don't even have one, and the people who do often buy online from non-dutch online shops, or only got it for a vacation in a different country. Debit cards are completely unheard of, as far as I know.

I dunno, maybe the Netherlands is a country of suckers, but to me the whole bank transfer thing never really triggered any "omg unsafe" bells in my head.

 

[MachRider]

I believed Pandora was legitimate from day one, but I think I won't reorder.

I don't have slightest doubt that Pandora will eventually come out, but I seriously doubt the quality of the released product. There's just too many things developers are leaving open that can go wrong.
For start, final product hasn't been assembled yet, let alone stress-tested. Remember cracked hinges on Nintendo DS Lite? Or faulty screen on current PSP? Or Xbox360 red ring of death.... and all that on multi-billion budget companies....

Delays gave me more time to reconsider and I really think I'll pass on the first batch and I order mine from the second/third batch.


In the meantime, I have ordered a N.O.S. Amiga1200 to keep me occupied during Christmas period, now that Pandora's not coming.

 

[hells_dark]

I undestand your opinion MachRider.
I'll reorder my pandora, but i'm hardly waiting for the photos/videos in order to be more (more) confident.

 

[gaterooze]

Eniko: same in Australia, bank transfers are VERY common. I use them to pay most stuff I buy on eBay, for example, and have never had a problem.

 

[Frogboy]

Ah, I think that I got to the bottom of this, so to speak. If bank transfers are common in Europe, Australia and elsewhere around the world then that explains a lot. It especially explains why I and so few other people got instantly so suspicious and nobody else thought anything of it. Bank transfers are an almost unheard of form of payment in America (possibly North America). It is almost exclusive to scam artists and others who only deal in less than legal business transactions. Everything is credit cards, cash if you are buying something in a store (never online or through the mail), checks and sometimes something called a money order which is basically like cash but has at least a little bit of protection (although not much).

Unfortunately for the Pandora team, I'll guess that they are going to lose upwards of 90% of their American customers at least until the second batch because of that email and because of the fact that they aren't accepting credit cards yet. Even though I get it now, I still can't bring myself to ordering in this way. I hope to see the second batch soon and good luck for all of you after the first batch.

 

[j.pickens]

I'll guess that they are going to lose upwards of 90% of their American customers at least until the second batch because of that email and because of the fact that they aren't accepting credit cards yet.

The poll at the top of this thread shows a 4.9% "will not reorder" response, so your math seems a bit off...