Do You Intend To Re-order?

[Tom`]

I'll guess that they are going to lose upwards of 90% of their American customers at least until the second batch because of that email and because of the fact that they aren't accepting credit cards yet.

The poll at the top of this thread shows a 4.9% "will not reorder" response, so your math seems a bit off...

Yes, but I suspect most of those will wait for the credit card page, as am I. Unless there's been some statement that I haven't seen to the effect that credit cards won't be accepted until the second batch is ready?

 

[krooked]

Ah, I think that I got to the bottom of this, so to speak. If bank transfers are common in Europe, Australia and elsewhere around the world then that explains a lot. It especially explains why I and so few other people got instantly so suspicious and nobody else thought anything of it. Bank transfers are an almost unheard of form of payment in America (possibly North America). It is almost exclusive to scam artists and others who only deal in less than legal business transactions. Everything is credit cards, cash if you are buying something in a store (never online or through the mail), checks and sometimes something called a money order which is basically like cash but has at least a little bit of protection (although not much).

Unfortunately for the Pandora team, I'll guess that they are going to lose upwards of 90% of their American customers at least until the second batch because of that email and because of the fact that they aren't accepting credit cards yet. Even though I get it now, I still can't bring myself to ordering in this way. I hope to see the second batch soon and good luck for all of you after the first batch.

i can second that, a bank transfer is for gullible old women who are prime targets for scamming in the states.

I'll guess that they are going to lose upwards of 90% of their American customers at least until the second batch because of that email and because of the fact that they aren't accepting credit cards yet.

The poll at the top of this thread shows a 4.9% "will not reorder" response, so your math seems a bit off...

That is 4.9% of the people who are active members of the community. That said, i think the percentage could be alot bigger if you looked at all the people who ordered but dont check the forums constantly and arent active members. so naturally the people voting this topic are active and more confident pandora members.

 

[dinglebery]

I'll guess that they are going to lose upwards of 90% of their American customers at least until the second batch because of that email and because of the fact that they aren't accepting credit cards yet.

The poll at the top of this thread shows a 4.9% "will not reorder" response, so your math seems a bit off...

Yes, but I suspect most of those will wait for the credit card page, as am I. Unless there's been some statement that I haven't seen to the effect that credit cards won't be accepted until the second batch is ready?


same i havent gotten refunded yet but will order by cc once its available. as is at my bank here in the US currency exchange cost me between 6-8% not sure atm, cc processing fee is like 5 bucks were as a wire or money transfer is an insane surcharge. here in the US its just not that common and most banks are of the "do it at your own risk "stupid" mentality there is no way to recover the money or anything if things go south in general, most personal accounts (not commercial) give you the whole "are you really sure you want to do this ..we cant be held liable..blah blah .. speech if you even suggest a money transfer :> :blink:

 

[senatus]

QUOTE
Here’s my list of concerns and you guys can dispute them if you’d like. I’d actually like you to do so but as far as I know, these are all facts (or real posibilities) and just make this whole thing too risky for me until I can just order a Pandora and they, or a more local retailer, can just send it to me.

1. The bank that Craig and the Pandora team used to take our initial orders bailed out on them and refunded almost everyone’s money. Obviously, the bank had concerns, enough to turn down all of the money.


Which, given the fact that we really know nothing only raises my concern as a buyer. We've been told that the bank was uncooperative. We haven't been told why they are wrong.

QUOTE
3. The credit card order page still isn’t available and there seems to be this reorder ASAP so that I don’t get nailed on the conversion rates metality, further pushing the previous entry. Obviously the conversion rate thing doesn’t apply to England and possibly Germany (Evil Dragon’s shop?).

Agreed. I stand to lose $50 CAD even if I were to reorder immediately. If this were to collapse again (say, because of a failure in their supply chain so that they cannot get the LCD screen for months), we might go through this very dance again.

QUOTE
6. Even if all or almost all of the Pandora team are on the up and up, if just one person who has access to the bank account wanted to, he or she could clear it out, disappear and leave most of you and the rest of the team in a very bad place. I have friends that I’ve known for most of my life that I wouldn’t trust giving them access to that much money. I’d like to think that they wouldn’t take it but I wouldn’t take the chance or wouldn’t be all that shocked if they did. I don’t even personally know one member of the team. I’d like to think that they are all cool guys but I can’t take the chance.


In this regard, I assume that the money is in a corporate account, that requires two to countersign to withdraw. With hopefully the treasurer / finance guy not being one of them. That would be the professional arrangement. However, while I think the Pandora dev team is very technically able, and very dedicated, and probably honest, I have serious concerns about their professional corporate savvy because I don't know and they won't tell us.

I would seriously appreciate knowing at the very least, if this is all being done via a corporation, and who the shareholder(s) are, and who the director(s) are. And yes, I know this is a community project - I am not expecting quarterly updates, I am not a shareholder, but even seeing the basic signs of proper incorporation would vastly raise my confidence in the principals' ability to carry this off from a delivery (as opposed to a design concept and prototype) perspective. Caveat: I am basing this desire because of what I know about Canadian incorporation - it could be very different or totally irrelevant under UK laws.

QUOTE
7. To the best of my knowledge, they don’t have all of the parts needed yet and don’t know when they are going to. They still need the LCD screens. They still need the cases. Heck, they don’t even have all of the money yet. I really don’t see how they will be able to take all of the orders, get the parts, assemble several units by hand, finish writing the firmware, test out everything that it can do accurately, secure the manufacturing process, ship all of the parts over to the plant, get back all of the assembled Pandoras back, package them up and ship them all out to everyone who ordered. Jan/Feb seems like a best case scenario to me and one that I’d be surprised if they made. It’d be great if they did but I’m not expecting it. No ones know for sure when Pandora will be shipping.

That is true. We have gone from an estimate that was short of a promise (target late November / mid December 09), to no estimate at all.

Ultimately, for one reason or another, there is a serious lack of transparency. I am inclined to take my loss and simply wait to see if this device becomes a reality. Given that the Pandora is already going to be delayed at least by a quarter, it doesn't seem like waiting a year for a second batch after the first is a proven reality is that much longer for a better sense of security.

I do believe the Pandora is technically feasible, given the information I have seen posted mostly by MWeston from a hardware design perspective, and the specifications from ARM. The real question is it feasible from a manufacturing and finance basis.

Unfortunately, if a significant number of people think like you and I (and this poll is not indicative - it is a reflection of the most involved and hopeful followers of the project), then there may never be a first batch, because there will be insufficient capital to pay for the parts and manufacturing. Which means that those who go ahead will probably have their money refunded (if Craig & co are honest, which let us assume we are) but again at an exchange loss.

I am not going to apologize for anything I am saying. My concerns are reasonable and if this community-supported product wants the community support, it should start being a little more communicative than a few snippets on a blog and comments on a forum.

I personnaly probably will make the leap of faith and hope if the credit card page goes up and I if am allowed to pay exactly what I was refunded. Does anyone know if this will be case? Not speculation or the "from what I have heard / understand", but official word? And if so, it will be because I can afford to lose another $350 dollars. If you can't tolerate the risk - and it seems higher, not lower, than back in October - then it probably is wiser to wait.

My $0.02 (+$350).

 

[likwidoxigen]

Hell i re-ordered before i was refunded.

 

[Tor]

I just wish the CC reorder link would come up, sooner rather than later. I'll pay up the moment it gets up. I assume this whole bank affair has left the devs without a lot of the funding they need to get things going and I want to put in my share.

As for quality of first batch - we'll see. It would be strange if there weren't any. In any case, they have set off a number of units for warranty handling. If there are other kind of problems, solved in batch 2 or 3, hell I'll order another one at that point - I'm familiar enough with the platform (meaning omap chipset etc.) and the type of device (e.g. a Nokia iT) that I know that this is the device I want.

 

[Brockway]

Already lost $11 for conversion fees from my bank, plus probably $50 from the exchange rate fluctuations. Just don't feel like reordering right now, I'd rather cut my losses since the ship date is still sooo far off. May go with an EEE 900/904ha or something like that instead.

 

[BenTolputt]

My two cents:

The poll is of the "self-selected sample" variety, one of the worst types for obtaining a true sample of the population. It also has no verification on who can answer it (i.e. people could be voting without having ever ordered).

With those problems in mind, there is only 324 responses. Not a bad sample for a total population of 4000 orderers... provided all orderers were equally likely to be reading this board and this thread in particular.

In other words, the poll is non-representative and is useless for the purposes of predicting the behaviour of Pandora orderers as a whole (though probably pretty good at predicting overly-excited orderers ).

Bank Transfers in Australia are pretty common for the payment of bills and so on where there is an existing relationship. I pay my rent, phone bills, electricity, etc using bank-to-bank transfers. I don't purchase things from EBay or other online merchants as bank-to-bank transfers are not secured in cases of fraud.

 

[TaG]

My two cents:

The poll is of the "self-selected sample" variety, one of the worst types for obtaining a true sample of the population. It also has no verification on who can answer it (i.e. people could be voting without having ever ordered).
Damn, your suggesting we were duped into replying to a statistically imperfect poll and that not everything on these boards is gospel truth and fact? Bugger. What is the world(wideweb) coming to.

 

[gorman]

I've not decided.
Currently the whole way of handling this debacle (let's call things by their proper name) surely went a long way in me losing faith in the project.

There's no date for when the CC re-order page will go up, no *clear and logical* explanation regarding the bank problems, no date for when Pandoras will be shipped and in what order.

More than anything else, for this being a "community project", surely the flow of information has been all but community oriented.

 

[BenTolputt]

QUOTE
Damn, your suggesting we were duped into replying to a statistically imperfect poll and that not everything on these boards is gospel truth and fact?

Not only that, but we know you both respond & believe in these things now. There are plans in action to call you directly to gauge possible interest in our "Nigerian funds relocation scheme", all you need to do is give us your bank details and ignore all the people screaming "SCAM!". Should be pretty easy having spent time in these threads

 

[Frogboy]

Not only that, but we know you both respond & believe in these things now. There are plans in action to call you directly to gauge possible interest in our "Nigerian funds relocation scheme", all you need to do is give us your bank details and ignore all the people screaming "SCAM!". Should be pretty easy having spent time in these threads

I never raised my voice, just my concerns. Trust me, if you lived in the US and didn't do much international commerce, you would've been concerned too. Obviously the Pandora team didn't realize how bad that email made them look to the general American population or they would've just said "hang on until the CC page comes up". It might sound silly to everyone in the eastern hemisphere but seriously, they are lucky that they didn't get a much worse reaction from this part of the world (if there are very many of us). I assure you that I wasn't the only one who had red flags go up when I got that email. Craig and the gang are very fortunate to have such a loyal community backing them. And thanks to everyone who discussed my concerns with me civilly. That was very cool of you.

 

[areeve]

I'm heavily leaning towards not reordering and either making do with what I already have in the pocket computing department (an HTC Mogul) or choosing an alternative product.

I'm quite dismayed at losing money over exchange rates because of "the bank". When I applied for our merchant account we were asked what kind of monthly transaction volume and average transaction size we expected. Since then we've gone over and that got flagged and we had to jump through some bank hoops to get things adjusted. This makes me wonder about that whole process in this case. Perhaps it is all because of a lousy bank, but keep in mind what the bank is thinking... a million in funds comes in, they disperse the funds 3 days later, and then 60 days later the chargebacks arrive for whatever reason? The bank is protecting itself. Obviously I don't have all of the details, but I doubt all the blame sits with the bank. Now I'm not going to whine about a loss based on exchange rates because as another poster correctly noted I wouldn't be complaining if that was in my favor. I just didn't think my Pandora order was going to become a short term investment in a foreign currency.

Second, this is a product that I ordered at the end of Sept with a guesstimated ship date of the end of November. I'm still reading about device drivers being completed and the case being finalized. Missing the end of November isn't solely because they can't get the screens unless perhaps it was decided to "take it easy" because it won't ship anyways (and I highly doubt that). The thread on guesstimated ship dates is amusing to say the least with people guessing in Dec '08 and Jan '09. A solid/stable/shipping Pandora and all is a little or maybe even a long ways off yet.

Third, the idea of a pocket machine with game controls was/is a dream come true. I wish this team the best of luck in completing the realization of such a complicated device by such a small team. I certainly don't rule out purchasing one in the future, but I've been a guinea pig for too many pre-orders of unreleased products in the past.

- Alan

 

[jake52]

More than anything else, for this being a "community project", surely the flow of information has been all but community oriented.

This is the key reason I won’t be pre-ordering. I’ve been involved in community projects before and suffered some of the same issues that are being seen here, but the one thing that kept things going throughout was communication. Delays were not our issue as when there was a delay on parts the appropriate community member would stipulate the exact details, so everyone knew exactly where the project was at. We never had to guess where we were on the order queue as each member was told and could see each others position, which was a great source of amusmement. I’d go on but can’t be ar$ed going down in flames by those who feel they are somehow in debt to the special few who hold this ‘community’ to ransom.

 

[eksasol]

I am not reordering mainly because I needed the money, but I don't feel like I badly need a Pandora right away either. I'm probably expecting a little too much from the little machine, I wanted something that can be a compact full machine that is pocket size, but I think I will have to wait a while for more ARM softwares to be developed, and since Ubuntu has plans to port to ARM and there will be multicore ARM cpus in the future. A muticore ARM portable UMPC machine running Ubuntu will be what I'm looking at as my main computer, I guess it could take as much as 2 years maybe for it to materialize into consumer market. So I'm going to save up for a more expensive umpc, but I am still going to closely follow this project which is really interesting.

 

[javaJake]

Hell i re-ordered before i was refunded.
If you're not kidding, your money just went back to the troublesome bank...

 

[mali]

Hell i re-ordered before i was refunded.
If you're not kidding, your money just went back to the troublesome bank...

Surely not. He has gotten the re-fund mail with the right account data(for bank transfer)

 

[javaJake]

Ah, of course. I forgot about bank transfers.

 

[Frogboy]

I wonder how big a hit they are taking from this whole fiasco. From the sounds of the December update on the homepage of OpenPandora.org, it sounds like (and I could easily be wrong here) that 200+ people or so cancelled their orders and/or issued charge-backs...and I am not even one of them (to the surprise of all I'd guess). I'm still expecting to be a second batcher but if they can turn this thing around and show me something that'll convice me that these things are indeed ready to go, I'd definitely have to reconsider my position. A real Pandora would be a nice first step. Knowing that they had all of the parts on hand would also help a lot. Not sure what it would take to flip me at the moment but it would be sweet if they can get there in time.

 

[Qwertyuiop]

...it sounds like (and I could easily be wrong here) that 200+ people or so cancelled their orders and/or issued charge-backs...

I believe there were 200 spares in the first batch...