Distrobution, Mass-quantities Of Sd Cards, Copy-protection, Etc.


@ThantiK
While I understand what you're asking, most developers in this community aren't in it for the money. Most of us (yeah I code) do it for the joy, others take donations on their websites. Selling our programs kind of goes against what the "Open" part of the OpenPandora stands for. I'm sure there will be some commercial apps that appear for the Pandora, but not so many that the console makers will need worry themselves about providing a revenue channel for those applications.

Commercial developers can rest at least somewhat easy knowing that a fairly inexpensive and easy to implement copy protection scheme already exists, and is built into the system should they wish to take advantage of it.

@Butterman
The point of the encrypted area on SD cards is that for the average user it would be too difficult / time consuming to bother with. From what I understand the level of encryption on SD cards is actually quite high. Sure, a cracker could crack the encryption on the game, but that's not the point. He was asking what a distributor could do to prevent a wholesale copy-paste bonanza. Piracy is a fact of life for commercial developers.

I seriously doubt that many people in this community in particular would steal software. Should a commercial product arise, however, the peace of mind in knowing that your software has at least some protection means a lot when the publishing company has invested thousands of dollars to develop something.

The vast majority of games for the Pandora are going to be free. I would not suggest suppressing commercial development because it doesn't fit the communities wishes. A paid group of programmers and graphic designers could turn out some really amazing stuff on a platform like the Pandora. I would be willing to bet that they would get some buyers as well, if the content was worth the cash. The GP2X had a few commercial ventures, and they actually did okay.
 
For the record I would be interested in this personally, if there were enough interest in it from people playing my game, but only if the same company would distribute PC boxes as well, and only as a collector's edition type box.

That way it becomes something you can do for the game you love, to support the developers of the game and so you can have a special collector's edition box to hug and love and pet and call George. And in that context it would only be fair if whoever was doing the boxing would get a decent markup out of it for their effort.

But for me personally that would be on the side of just downloading it for free. Most of this is reasoning from my own perspective that a game is somehow more enjoyable if I have the box and the manual and I laid down money for it. It just feels a bit more real that way.
 
Distribution on physical media might almost make sense if the Pandora were hugely successful and available in retail outlets around the world. It's still working for Sony and Nintendo, but only because both companies are big enough to make it work and dumb enough to not realize physical media is circling the drain.

The future present for digital distribution, DRMed or otherwise, is online. Between Xbox Live Arcade, the Apple App Store, Android Market and STEAM, it's pretty obvious that online digital distribution is both superior to physical media distribution and significantly more secure. It also has the obvious benefit of having effectively zero overhead for developers, so you can charge small amounts (99 cents or less) for small games and apps and not lose your shirt on physical media costs.

In a world where the Pandora was popular enough to have a significant commercial game market, we would have an online distribution and payment system to cater to that market. Popular enough or not, it's still something we'd like to do. We're still working on an integrated package management system, and if at some point it becomes possible for us to accept payments for commercial titles through such a system, we would definitely consider it. If there are developers who want to sell their software through us, we'll do what we can to accommodate them. If everybody decides "Screw it" and doesn't want to bother with a setup like that, we won't bother. The possibilities are pretty much limitless. It all comes down to what people want.

If devs would rather do things on their own and sell collectors SD cards or something similar, that's always an option too. Just remember that "collectors" are a niche segment of what is already a niche market of Pandora owners.
 
Chip said:
In a world where the Pandora was popular enough to have a significant commercial game market, we would have an online distribution and payment system to cater to that market. Popular enough or not, it's still something we'd like to do. We're still working on an integrated package management system, and if at some point it becomes possible for us to accept payments for commercial titles through such a system, we would definitely consider it. If there are developers who want to sell their software through us, we'll do what we can to accommodate them. If everybody decides "Screw it" and doesn't want to bother with a setup like that, we won't bother. The possibilities are pretty much limitless. It all comes down to what people want.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's why all of this was marked as theoretical. In a perfect world (ok, in MY perfect world at least), the pandora will out-sell the nintendo DS and the PSP and we would need something like this. But it also makes sense that from day 1 - we would want to ship pandoras with some sort of framework for this that would auto-upgrade to what it will eventually become.

Obviously a package manager will be included with the distro - because what distro DOESN'T have a package manager? But if we were to step into this half-way through you'd have to instruct users to install it.

But yeah, remember - purely theoretical - I'm not - and as far as I know, nobody has really begun any kind of work on this sort of thing. However this type of thing is usually what can KEEP a product like this *FROM* getting bigger. A community full of FOSS programmers can be tightly knit, and build a great community - but from a purely marketing standpoint if you don't have consumer-friendly models available it won't grow much beyond just that community.
 
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I don't see what the big fuss is about not wanting to go completely digital distribution. I mean Palm pretty much did this like 10 years ago and that was hugely successful. All the devs need to do is create a extension for the package manger to be able to install packages over USB from a host computer. That way people without Wifi or those who wanted to download from their PC's could and install onto the Pandora.

Following Palm application developers, if people release demos and other trials of their software I think this also lessons the reasons for people to pirate the application.
 
Physical distribution is so wrong on so many levels. Even the huge players are ditching it in favor of digital distribution, and for small developers it's really a no-option.

Just look at the IPhone appstore - that's the future. Cheap, crap, impulse-buy showelware.
Steam is going to be exactly like that in a year or so. Most of the "casual" portals are even worse - but at much higher price.

Don't come now and say: but we would develop reeeaaaaly good games™ on the Pandora as the appstore certainly proves otherwise. People are cheap. Both developers and consumers.
And there's no way in the universe that physical distribution is going to get you more than 30(distributor):70(developer) profit split as you would get on appstore. With physical distribution you would have to kick yourselves in the butt from happiness if you get 80:20 out of it.


And if in any case you really DO WANT and are ABLE to develop a proper indie game, then just DO IT, put it up on the web site, develop it for as many platforms as you possibly can, market the sh!t out of it...
Forget about the piracy and all that crap - piracy if free advertising in this case.
Place a $19.99 price tag (if it deserves) on it and sit and wait for the market to decide. This way you look at approx 10:90 profit ratio. If you make any profit, that is.
 
It would be nice to be able to buy collector editions of free (as in gpl) games in this style

http://www.mobygames.com/game/apple2/akala...-doom/cover-art

but I'm afraid that they would only sell one copy, and only if it was a game I liked :)

Any physical sale with DRM that forces to keep the game on the original SD would probably be a nuisance for people who want to travel with many games, however.
 
I agree with what others have said about digital distribution being the way things are going. I use both Steam and Stardock, and one of the best things about them is that re-installing games is a snap, because the install files, DRM, and updates are all managed by the system. I also have an iPhone 3G, and I think the App Store is rightfully advertised as a device feature.

I'm in favor of not only digital distribution but a centralized distribution system with user reviews, modeled after Cydia, Apple's App Store, etc.; and community support, like Steam, XBox Live, etc. I'll lay out an argument for this standpoint. First, the model is specifically advantageous for a network-able device that has a smaller user community, like the Pandora. Realistically, the Pandora is designed for a small, dedicated user group. Second, people don't mind paying for convenience and selection, while preparing and distributing physical media represents a cost to developers, both in time and other resources. Third, as a gaming device, users will definitely get a lot out of a user community that 1) controls personal identity and credit card information; 2) tracks gaming stats and manages gamer identity via avatars; and 3) passively supports "legitimate" software purchases by offering features like updates, news, friends, forums, achievements, etc. Finally, when it comes to non-game applications that enhance device usability, an app store makes that market more viable.

Now, I know these systems are actually really complicated. It's one thing to say, "We should set up something like Steam for the Pandora," and another for a group of people to come up with a system that works and operates continuously with full support. I would guess that Stardock and perhaps Steam are run by a relatively small group of people; whereas Apple already had the iTunes store, and Google added the Android Marketplace to their Google checkout system, and of course they are big companies. Also, certain applications may be well-suited for something like SD cards, especially those that require a modified OS, for instance. But I think something like Steam would be great to shoot for and would definitely make the system easier to use for a wider audience.


Edit:
I actually think the likelihood of real piracy for the Pandora is inherently low. The lower the number of users, the harder it is to distribute software "illegally" or illegitimately. If all applications are available from one official location and absolutely no other legitimate location (for instance, on the developer's own website, posted in forums, etc.) that model should support a small commercial market for a while. By "a while," I mean, up to the point at which the user community is large enough to support P2P file sharing. I don't know what that number is, but it's pretty large compared to the numbers of Pandoras that are being produced. There are a lot of reasons why that works, but it boils down to the fact that people are lazy. People would rather pay $5 for an iPhone app than jailbreak the phone to get the free version of the same app, if they think the app is worth $5. If there are 10,000 Pandoras, and you write an app that is useful enough for 50% of users to impulse buy for $1, but no more than that, that's $5,000. Try to imagine getting the attention of 10,000 individual users if there's no centralized place where people get applications, versus the opposite condition. It would be harder to give away 5,000 copies of the same app for free without a central location for apps.

It's easier to pass around a cold if you all use the same drinking glass.
 
I'm all for that kind of system. I wonder if it could be integrated with Paypal somehow? (I know Paypal is a dirty word at the moment, but the links would be to individual dev accounts, not a central Pandora account). Even free apps could integrate donation options into the download process.

It's easy for me to theorise in one neat paragraph of course. Details aside, I'm a big supporter of the concept.
 
Aren't most people planning on keeping cards in both slots more or less all the time?

If I had a card in both slots I wouldn't take out half my storage capacity just so I could run one particular program. Not only is it a hassle, there's a risk of losing one of my cards.
 
Any physical distribution method would be pointless and costly.
Besides, all of these protection systems can easilly be bypassed. Instead of worrying about so much crap and enraging users with DRM systems, it would be better for commercial developers to just focus on good software and use only basic protection system (i.e. cd keys) and just make their programs available for download after purchase.
I, at least, will refuse to buy any software only available in physical media because there are too many costs involved (the price of the media, recording, packaging, shipping, etc). The latest EA DRM fiasco with spore has proven that excessive copy protection systems do nothing but annoy users (spore is available without any protection at a torrent tracker near you).
 
each slot is a potential 32+ GB. im tired of swapping out (and having to search my house to find) physical disks to play games, everywhere. i was so glad when Payback let me copy the game folder to my nice 4GB SD and it worked. would definitely buy from them again. lock the game to the specific pandora being played on if you must have your beloved DRM, not a stupidly small SD card. i like my freedom to be able to play what i want where i want without risking losing a small(or large if i'm currently playing the small one) card in a bag/jeans pocket.

if people are going to pirate, they will find a way. people understand the Pandora is a small niche market and will be much more inclined to buy a game to support that company making games, regardless. need i remind you what DRM did to online music? companies are too protective over their "return on investment". the reality is a tiny percentage of consumers steal the content, and this would be reduced had their been no restrictive technology (and saving you the cost of implementation for said tech).

im sure people emulating PSX and watching movies in particular will thank you for it. sorry for rant :lol:
 
As far as DRM or "copyright protection" techniques go, they've been a thorn in my side since at least the day I got a floppy drive for my home micro. With increased capacity over the requirements for a single game, any difficulty over making a "compilation collection" of my own, from games I'd legally paid for, was an inconvenience to me. Personally, I'd rather pay money in advance to a developer "pot" for the potential games we MIGHT get for an open product than to buy in to such closed behaviour as DRM again. What if I want to make a compilation? What if my Pandora dies and I buy another one? What if I "upgrade" to Pandora II? Do I have to pay again, and again, and again for the EXACT same software? (discounting upgrades/improvements/new platform-specific versions).

I'm not saying all software should be "Open" in the way that the source should be supplied etc. etc., just that I won't intentionally spend any money on a game that deliberately attempts to hamper my own perfectly legal usage. If I wanted to be involved in THAT closed a situation, I could have bought a PSP or something long ago and gone without the wait, wait, wait for a :pandora1:
 
I think that maybe some sort of online authentification would work well. When the game is run, it compares a key that the user is given when they buy the software (assuming it is a commercial product) to a database online. Though it will only do this when the Pandora has a wifi connection. If the keys do not match, the game locks itself so that it cannot be played.

Although it won't work well if the user only plays the game when there is no connection, but it will serve as some form of annoyance to those who do try to pirate the game. This may not be the best solution, but creating something like this that is annoying (like Securerom and all those other piss annoying DRM) will help get back at those who wish to steal.
 
Mattz said:
I think that maybe some sort of online authentification would work well. When the game is run, it compares a key that the user is given when they buy the software (assuming it is a commercial product) to a database online. Though it will only do this when the Pandora has a wifi connection. If the keys do not match, the game locks itself so that it cannot be played.

Although it won't work well if the user only plays the game when there is no connection, but it will serve as some form of annoyance to those who do try to pirate the game. This may not be the best solution, but creating something like this that is annoying (like Securerom and all those other piss annoying DRM) will help get back at those who wish to steal.
Click to expand...
It also limits legal use of the game to the duration of the server. I can still play "Elite" on a BBC Model B if I so desire - I have the program, and I have the computer (with it's own screen and everything) tucked away in the loft. However, if it required online verification that I really REALLY owned the game, I wouldn't be able to play it any more. The same for Exile, the same for various Repton games, and so on.

Now, actually, I tend to play these on an emulator - where I'd have the same problem if it required internet authorisation, unless someone had cracked it (like they crack every other form of copy protection).

ALL means of "DRM" limit the use of the software by legal fee-paying customers. They ATTEMPT to limit the behaviour of pirates, usually only being successful for a limited time, but are actually an increasing risk of aggrovation for legitimate customers as time passes. If you'r eOK with only renting the games you play, that's not so bad, but I really prefer to buy an unended license to use software where and when and how I choose - whether the author has stopped trading, or is doing well, whether I am near an Intermet conenction or not, whether I manage to connect within a fortnight or not. I'm all about maximising my own ease of use rather than limiting my freedoms. Not copy-protecting stuff does not make it legal for pirates - but treating ME like a pirate does not win my favour either.
 
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Maybe the community can pay pandora games in front, because then the game can be distributed via a website. This way you (the developer) avoid the annoying DRM stuff but still get your money.
Checking if the software is real could be done by the pandora staff, or someone else we can trust.
Other people (downloading the game for free) could donate with paypal if they want.
You could also send the people that pre-paid the game physically (CD/SD whatever).
 
People, you really need to wory less about DRM, copy protection, piracy and such, and worry more about writing games.

The fact is: if you make a good game - people will buy it AND people will pirate it, no matter what protection scheme you use.
Better the game, more money it'll bring you AND more pirated copies will be shared on Piratebay.
That's life, live with it. Fvck DRM.
 
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