Disappointed Again

[Exophase]

GP2X.

That so? Looks like there's a precedent in this community afterall! This is the first I've heard of this. Of course, everyone should know I don't think GPH is perfect.

Nonetheless, if this was what they were doing with the Wiz then it couldn't have worked so well because I know they didn't receive very many preorders at all.

Question: when GP2X was being preordered, what was the exact status? How long after money was taken was it shipped? Were they demoing actual units? Did people have prototype units? Wiz's hardware was almost final back in October 2008 and we all got prototype units well before the release date.

 

[Ravnos]

Question: when GP2X was being preordered, what was the exact status? How long after money was taken was it shipped? Were they demoing actual units? Did people have prototype units? Wiz's hardware was almost final back in October 2008 and we all got prototype units well before the release date.

I think I pre-ordered mine in late-August and received it in mid-December of that year. IIRC we were expecting it to ship in late September, so it was roughly a 3-month delay. Nowhere near the Pandora's monumental delays. There was quite a bit of grumbling back then, too. I also believe that dev-boards were out before the intended September release, but without the final OS. I do remember Squidge having a Quake port up and running before release.

 

[gaterooze]

Comparing to the Pandora, I think that OP are avoiding GPH's mistake in releasing a terribly buggy Mk1 unit, which even had the joystick installed incorrectly. The price you pay is more time. Does anyone recall how long it was until the Mk2 was released?

I will say that GPH made it very clear that pre-orders were funding production. Perhaps when OP took pre-orders they assumed that people knew how it worked with the GP2X so were used to it...

 

[Exophase]

All indications right now show that OP is doing a really good job in trying to get the initial version as good as they can, especially compared to GPH. So I definitely don't think they should have taken less time. Just started taking preorders later. But it's all hindsight.

Not sure if I was totally clear, but I consider "venture capital" in this case to be money going towards funding R&D, not manufacturing/supply costs for the units themselves. What's considered what might be a little blurry, but take it as you will. Although most people here really were under the impression that OP had all the money necessary to go into manufacturing too it can be accepted as a misunderstanding/miscommunication. It's not surprising that most people who ordered Pandora didn't realize how GPH was handling GP2X preorders, since most probably weren't even around for that.

 

[Monk]

Question: when GP2X was being preordered, what was the exact status? How long after money was taken was it shipped? Were they demoing actual units? Did people have prototype units? Wiz's hardware was almost final back in October 2008 and we all got prototype units well before the release date.

I think I pre-ordered mine in late-August and received it in mid-December of that year. IIRC we were expecting it to ship in late September, so it was roughly a 3-month delay. Nowhere near the Pandora's monumental delays. There was quite a bit of grumbling back then, too. I also believe that dev-boards were out before the intended September release, but without the final OS. I do remember Squidge having a Quake port up and running before release.

Some quotes from Craig (I'm surprised more of these haven't popped up this week)

CraigIX:for the customers won't be long, we won't be doing a GPH preorder-then-wait-3-months

CraigIX: December isn't a deadline, it is just a nice goal we have, as I've said we won't release until it is ready and working exactly as we want it.

and just for fun, as it showed up while checking the above quotes,

CraigIX: We will use an off the shelf battery which will be cheap and not some custom only for profit thing.


While I agree most of the first batch customers probably knew better than to trust OpenPandora's "November with luck, almost certainly before Christmas" type estimates, I think OpenPandora should have had a better idea than ANY of the potential customers when they could ship. They may be less experienced than SONY, but they're also more experienced than most of us (e.g. individuals from the OP team have used the same factory that produced the AV cables and is producing the Pandora case before - they are dealing with a known entity ergo they have at least SOME experience with the processes and the company).

And no - I wouldn't think to EXCUSE trolling. I just find it kinda hard to imagine a thread with this title avoiding it

 

[worzyl]

Worzyl wakes up and eats breakfast along with a nice cup of hot H20:

"Hmm...lets see - check my mail then straight back on to the artwork. Hey..actually, let me have a quick check on the Pandora forum"

Clicks on thread.

:blink:

Leaves thread.

Wait, you actually drink hot H₂O without adding anything? You on a diet or something?

Heh heh. Not a diet, but I've never been one for drinking cups of coffee or tea. Well then again, I'll make the tea to dump some biscuits in and then give the rest of the tea to someone else to drink - with the soggy crumbly bits layered neatly at the bottom

But I'll drink it myself if I have too...

So everyone...please do yourselves a favour and try a nice cup of hot H2O! It's just so damn refreshing (as well as the fact that the water here in Lima, Peru is not exactly stomach friendly...)

 

[renegadechic]

my preorder paid for parts as far as i'm concerned. and i would include the mould for the cases as part of the cost for parts.

considering how much was done before the preorders (nubs, board design, etc) and the cases cost about $100,000 i dont see how anyone could claim all the pre-order money went into development. and even if it did its only a small percentage of that money.

frankly, considering the product we are getting now (pandora 1.5 as craig put it) i dont even mind considering what i was expecting to get. now im getting something more capable, and sexier looking than i expected originally, for no extra money. ive had a pretty decent time amusing myself in the wait, ive been in complete awe of some of the mad skills on this messageboard, and i am filled with wonder and expectation which is virtually non existant in my life as a completely jaded 26 year old.

 

[Dunny]

frankly, considering the product we are getting now (pandora 1.5 as craig put it) i dont even mind considering what i was expecting to get. now im getting something more capable, and sexier looking than i expected originally, for no extra money. ive had a pretty decent time amusing myself in the wait, ive been in complete awe of some of the mad skills on this messageboard, and i am filled with wonder and expectation which is virtually non existant in my life as a completely jaded 26 year old.

+1.

And wait until you get to 36. You have no idea what "Jaded" means yet

D.

 

[neko]

If they really were relying on preorder costs in order to develop the machine then that changes things substantially. No longer would it be a matter of "we made one, if you give us the money we'll make one for you too" kind of arrangement that a lot of smaller operations have. I know a lot of you think very highly of what Pandora is trying to do but you can't pretend that they're a non-profit organization. No company should take preorder money as venture capital without very clearly saying that this is what they're doing - it's unfair for them to eventually profit off of something that said "investors" are not given any means of profiting from. Yes, if all you care about is getting a Pandora and you think that it's a great "movement" then maybe the ends will justify the means to you but I don't see that as being fair play.

I ordered in February, when they first re-opened orders that were cancelled due to the banking fiasco. At the time it was made pretty clear that they were going to use the pre-order money to pay for manufacturing. So I went into this knowing that I would not get my money back if openpandora went bankrupt.

Maybe it wasn't clear in October, but all of those orders got refunded. Everyone who re-ordered knew, or should have known, what was going on with the money.

 

[LastPucho]

...

Anyway. I'm done pissing you off. I enjoyed it and apparently you didn't. I succeeded in what I was aiming for.

...

​

Sorry... too tempting :lol: . Just joking...

Relax folks!

PS: If anyone finds this kind of rude, I'll remove it. Just in case this was too much...

 

[Monk]

my preorder paid for parts as far as i'm concerned. and i would include the mould for the cases as part of the cost for parts.

considering how much was done before the preorders (nubs, board design, etc) and the cases cost about $100,000 i dont see how anyone could claim all the pre-order money went into development. and even if it did its only a small percentage of that money.

frankly, considering the product we are getting now (pandora 1.5 as craig put it) i dont even mind considering what i was expecting to get. now im getting something more capable, and sexier looking than i expected originally, for no extra money. ive had a pretty decent time amusing myself in the wait, ive been in complete awe of some of the mad skills on this messageboard, and i am filled with wonder and expectation which is virtually non existant in my life as a completely jaded 26 year old.

I think you have hit on the very reason that people could consider their money as having been used for "development" in your post. FWIW, I'm considerably more jaded at 44 (two birthdays past when I decided to get a Pandora).

When the first "pre-orders" were accepted the motherboard that was proposed would have been a Mk1 or perhaps a Mk2. We are getting (unless I missed a revision) a mk4. That's some development.

Since original orders the nubs have been made, and the onboard firmware has been revised (and at some stage the revised firmware will actually be applied to all 8000 nubs). That's some more development.

The WiFi code isn't yet finished - it's still BEING developed (it is "mostly working" - as have previous versions been).

The 3D driver didn't exist until this year sometime IIRC - it was still being developed.

The case design *STILL* isn't complete - for example, since the original orders the battery cover has lost it screws and become a slide on/off affair, then just the other day we found it had changed again and is now a clip-on cover. That's development, and until they can actually produce working reliable cases the case/mould design is still being developed.

AFAIK they still haven't decided what TYPE of power supply/charger to provide - it SEEMD settled about a year ago but not long ago they were thinking of changing their mind. Not just to a different vendor or a newer model number, but to a different style of power supply (USB instead of the more traditional PSP type connector).

These changes and others (like the RAM and NAND upgrades) have, as you mentioned, mean we will be getting more like "Pandora 1.5" than "Pandora 1.0". That is, I suspect, the development that people consider themselves as having paid for. Perhaps it would more accurately reflect their feelings if we insist that the first batch of Pandoras will be V1.0 - then you can see that the Pandora that was "close to being shipped" this time last year wasn't a 1.0, but more like a 0.75.

Me, mostly I get irked at the combatative nature of this board, but every now and then I get a little shiver of delight as I contemplate what Pandora might, one day, be. Mine's on order

 

[skeezix]

"Wow". Anyway, just for info .. Exo, using 'pre-orders' to get cash to develop is pretty common actually, but I think its called 'fundraising' or something then. "pre-orders" does suggest somethign else perhaps; its not like the device was not already under development, so pre-order wasn't an incorrect term. Its just the devs thought it was further along than it was, so an 'error'. *shrug*

I'm sorry, I don't want to be part of the mess that is this thread But roped in...

Oh, and WhatsHisFace -- you cannot sue someone for taking back their cash, and causing a 'run on the bank'. They're allowed to take back their money. Consider -- you go to the supermarket, and a load of bread is there. Someone else picks it up .. so you sue them for depriving you of it? Rather than the store for not overstocking? Sillyness. You can be angry, and have every right perhaps, but no need to be an irrational loon at the same time

jeff

 

[SirAileron]

So long as OpenPandora isn't financially destroyed, I'm good.

It's really disheartening to see that so many customers don't read. How did they ever manage to order a Pandora in the first place? The level of intelligence of some folk here seems to suggest that half the people who are complaining simply don't have the intelligence to remember that they spent money in the first place. Seeing as how the Pandora is on the level of being a personal project, timeframe rules for personal projects apply. If you still want to complain about how well the production of this product is going (it's actually quite phenomenal, but I guess people with big mouths and loud temperaments don't learn much, since they're too busy talking), read a goddamned book about small business.

You seriously want a textbook example of a successful company starting out? Look at OpenPandora. Stare at it. There isn't anything more academic in the subject of business than what's right in front of you now, right down to every little detail: loss of money due to external company bankruptcy causing investment/purchase to be rendered unavailable, insufficient data on company history to determine accurate timeframe for finished production of an ordered product, distant relations to production companies which causes distrust as far as the tactful disclosure of specific information, initial/perpetual funding bottlenecks due to lack of credit history, and plenty more.

At this point, I don't even care if half of you moaners don't want to read a book on business. Negative, non-constructive feedback only increases stress and tension. Unfortunately, you'll always be around, as even you are just another business statistic accurately portrayed by a textbook and related extensive research. But, as inevitable as you are, you are still incredibly irritating to cognitively parse.


.... goddamn numbers everywhere. Not even a product aimed for more intelligent people is safe from those shitty statistics.

 

[sold]

IMHO (capitalised for emphasis) the "pre-order" angle was kinda lame when you look at it 12 months later, but I don't think the team meant to treat the community like suckers who would fund their endeavor under the guise of a pre-order. I think they genuinely bit off more than they could chew without realising it. Don't forget, they are learning things the hard way. They have more at stake than any one of us who have ponied up the cash. And in the end we are all in on the most excellent open source device to be attempted so far.

 

[Shaun199three]

So long as OpenPandora isn't financially destroyed, I'm good.

It's really disheartening to see that so many customers don't read. How did they ever manage to order a Pandora in the first place? The level of intelligence of some folk here seems to suggest that half the people who are complaining simply don't have the intelligence to remember that they spent money in the first place. Seeing as how the Pandora is on the level of being a personal project, timeframe rules for personal projects apply. If you still want to complain about how well the production of this product is going (it's actually quite phenomenal, but I guess people with big mouths and loud temperaments don't learn much, since they're too busy talking), read a goddamned book about small business.

You seriously want a textbook example of a successful company starting out? Look at OpenPandora. Stare at it. There isn't anything more academic in the subject of business than what's right in front of you now, right down to every little detail: loss of money due to external company bankruptcy causing investment/purchase to be rendered unavailable, insufficient data on company history to determine accurate timeframe for finished production of an ordered product, distant relations to production companies which causes distrust as far as the tactful disclosure of specific information, initial/perpetual funding bottlenecks due to lack of credit history, and plenty more.

At this point, I don't even care if half of you moaners don't want to read a book on business. Negative, non-constructive feedback only increases stress and tension. Unfortunately, you'll always be around, as even you are just another business statistic accurately portrayed by a textbook and related extensive research. But, as inevitable as you are, you are still incredibly irritating to cognitively parse.


.... goddamn numbers everywhere. Not even a product aimed for more intelligent people is safe from those shitty statistics.

I don't really see Open Pandora as a business right now cause I thought they were actually losing money ATM rather than making money. However I do see open pandora as more of an organisation because its more community based (Also the .org). Lol it seems stupid now but when I ordered the Pandora in April I thought it would be finished around May according to various sources including the an email I recieved. I really think for people who wish to order the Pandora they should be informed on the situation because I honestly thought the final prototype was already made and all they needed to do is reproduce it but appparently the case wasn't even finished yet for another several months. Even though heaps of people in this forum are saying that "you should of known what to be expecting", I doubt even the Open Pandora team ever thought it would take this long but yet so many people are being jerks and insulting anybody who questions the progress being made.
Seriously stop trying to question peoples intellegence just because people couldn't be bothered reading something that is totally unnecessary. Smart people are the ones who ask questions rather than pretend to know everything.

 

[CCmachined]

Michael should have the Dpads and final keymats any day now (depending on UPS).

These are the first things shipped from the moulding company, we are paying for parts to come as they are done just to show you things as they arrive.

The keymats were altered based on the feedback on the forum and people with prototype Pandora consoles.

The first 105 are going to ship in October (I can't predict when, as we may have to tweak the moulds). You will see users on this very forum post as they receive them.

Then the rest will start shipping. I know. It's 10 months late. But it's a Pandora 1.5 with dozens of bug fixes and upgraded hardware.

November 08 -> October, most units November 09.

There are twelve months in a year. ^^'

 

[droneb]

I DK, but GRUSO posted something really confusing, about 20% softer, did they already get the keymats or they were talking about the last revision.??

 

[Kimundi]

They did get the final samples (again?) and deemed them to hard.
Now the final keymats will be 20% softer.

 

[gruso]

It was Craig who said that: http://www.gp32x.de...post__p__756590

Black & white avatar + guru badge, perhaps an easy mistake to make in your peripheral vision. Sometimes I mix up people that way too. Just so it's crystal clear, I'm not part of the Pandora team. Any "official" info you hear from me is repeated, quoted, or dug out of old posts. Here comes some of that now...

The keymats being sent to MWeston (which we first heard about here) were production samples. In other words, the final product, but only a handful rather than the whole 4,000. This is so they can catch any last minute issues. That move paid off, as per the first link above. The rubber is just a little bit hard, so they will instruct the factory to make it a little softer when they run off the whole first batch of keymats.

I wonder if MWeston has some sample d-pads now, too...

 

[droneb]

so any ideas when is the new saple running?