Designing The Gp2x's Successor - Hardware Selection Poll

[Epicenter]

There's a 'sleep' mode available on the S3C2460 and a lot of other SoCs, maybe you could. But you'd need switching logic to do it and it would add cost to the unit..

 

[JyCet]

Hum Samsung S3C2460 is a very good SOC cpu but I prefere TI OMAP2420
http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbu...;contentId=4671
(with 3 components you have a complete board)

... and please a touchscreen to emulate a mouse !!!

 

[Winterkid]

Perhaps a second dpad or an analogue stick to go with? I find FPS with lookup/lookdown are tougher to play without. I don't know about the touchscreen for mouse thing. Would be great for RTS or for OS navigation or even a paint program or OCR obviously, but I don't know about much else.

 

[Epicenter]

Hum Samsung S3C2460 is a very good SOC cpu but I prefere TI OMAP2420
http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbu...;contentId=4671
(with 3 components you have a complete board)

... and please a touchscreen to emulate a mouse !!!

Haha, that was my first choice! It cost a fortune though compared to S3C2460 and the ARM9ES-J still provided the FPU and vector processing capabilities of the ARM11-- at much lower cost and comparable clockrate with a little overclocking.

Perhaps a second dpad or an analogue stick to go with? I find FPS with lookup/lookdown are tougher to play without. I don't know about the touchscreen for mouse thing. Would be great for RTS or for OS navigation or even a paint program or OCR obviously, but I don't know about much else.

Both a D-Pad and an Analog stick would be a formidable combo if it was engineered to be comfortable. A touchscreen would be a great feature for PDA Functionality and WiFi internet use; it's a PDA SoC, why shouldn't the machine have a decent PDA featureset to take full advantage? Assuming price is not going to be absurd with a touchscreen of course! PDA displays cost a fortune most of the time.

 

[stinch]

The PSP is NOT OPEN, you can't compare the struggles of people on a closed system to those of a scene full of people on a GPL console .

I think it could still be a usefull comparison. Look at how the hardware in the gp2x is being utilised. It doesn't matter that it's a gpl colsole running linux if the OS and SDK don't use any of the fancy hardware. Most of us have to wait for the clever people to figure out how it all works so they can produce libaries the rest of us can use. That's a process that just takes time when there are a limited number of capable people doing it in their spare time. Using a SOC with a boat load of bells and whistles is pointless if the system ends up obsolete before anybody works out how to use it. A simpler SOC with a faster cpu could reach it's potential quicker and be easier to program for.

 

[Epicenter]

That's not the most realistic comparison possible. The GP2X has undocumented hardware that doesn't comply to any APIs or standards. MagicEyes withholds documentation to make money. Samsung makes all this information readily available. Also their components use standard APIs-- e.g. unlike the GP2X Blitter which Paeryn had to reverse-engineer, the S3C2460's 2D/3D accelerator is a rather famous PowerVR MBX Lite part with the standard OpenGL-ES API that's intercompatible with SDL *already*.

 

[DaveC]

A touchscreen would be a great feature for PDA Functionality and WiFi internet use; it's a PDA SoC, why shouldn't the machine have a decent PDA featureset to take full advantage? Assuming price is not going to be absurd with a touchscreen of course! PDA displays cost a fortune most of the time.

PDA features also mean propriatary li-ion batteries that are always draining whether in use or not.

This sucks for 2 reasons.

One, once the special battery dies and the unit is discontinued you have a brick (see: Zodiac and Gizmondo). The GP32 is still useable even though they don't make them or the parts for it because it uses standard batteries.

Second, if you don't constantly use and charge it the battery runs itself down meaning when you go to use it you need to wait 4 or so hours before you can do anything. I really don't want to have to babtsit the thing by having to remember to "feed" it constantly, a pain in the ass. Also Li-ion batteries deteriorate if you let them sit uncharged so you *have* to keep after it even if you don't use it, if you want it to continue working.

Lets not get to overcomplicated here.

 

[Winterkid]

Yeah, the proprietary battery sounds like a headache. *scratches head* What about a cell phone or a cordless phone battery? Easy to change, easy to find/buy, last for a long time, various voltages/amps.

Edit: Probably be much cheaper than a proprietary battery/charging system too.

 

[AcidiC]

Yeah, the proprietary battery sounds like a headache. *scratches head* What about a cell phone or a cordless phone battery? Easy to change, easy to find/buy, last for a long time, various voltages/amps.

Edit: Probably be much cheaper than a proprietary battery/charging system too.

I actually thought this myself a little while ago, after I had dropped the phone and the battery cover flew off
The ones my phone uses are supplied by dick smith, it seems like a good idea

 

[Epicenter]

PDA features also mean propriatary li-ion batteries that are always draining whether in use or not.

This sucks for 2 reasons...

I'm sorry, but what the fuck are you talking about? It's an integrated circuit; it takes 1.5 Volts DC, it doesn't care where it comes from-- a Lithium Ion pack, a NiMH battery pair, a pair of Lithium Disposable AAs, or an array of lemons and a step-up transformer. Just because PDAs typically use Lithium Ion packs nowadays has no bearing on what variety of battery MUST be used with a PDA-oriented SoC or a touch-screen. All that is speical about a PDA-oriented model is that it contains support for a touch screen, a wide variety of removable media, SDIO, standby/sleep modes, etc.

Your logic is getting more and more ridiculous. Seriously, did you even look at the technical docs on the chips we're discussing?

 

[sam fisher]

PDA features also mean propriatary li-ion batteries that are always draining whether in use or not.

This sucks for 2 reasons...

I'm sorry, but what the fuck are you talking about? It's an integrated circuit; it takes 1.5 Volts DC, it doesn't care where it comes from-- a Lithium Ion pack, a NiMH battery pair, a pair of Lithium Disposable AAs, or an array of lemons and a step-up transformer. Just because PDAs typically use Lithium Ion packs nowadays has no bearing on what variety of battery MUST be used with a PDA-oriented SoC or a touch-screen. All that is speical about a PDA-oriented model is that it contains support for a touch screen, a wide variety of removable media, SDIO, standby/sleep modes, etc.

Your logic is getting more and more ridiculous. Seriously, did you even look at the technical docs on the chips we're discussing?

Out of interest, how large would this array of lemons need to be to power the GP2x? Could you give me a link to a lemon compatible step up converter Also what sort of battery time could I expect?

How could I charge said lemon array?

 

[Ravnos]

Lemons aren't rechargeable, so you'd either have to get more lemons (or plant a lemon tree) or clone those lemons to make super-lemons, which are presumably rechargeable.

 

[Tobriand]

Reading through this thread, I'd jump on Option 1 - assuming that, over the next 2 years, a better chipset does not become available.

However, I'd like to point out a proviso GPH must consider before going with it.

Namely, GP are already (apparently) working on a machine containing this. Is there any point in going up against them directly with what ammounts to an identical device in terms of whack, considering there are already people who are likely to go with the XGP when it arrives in addition to the 2x. Surely you just lose the ability to sell to half your demographic who've already got the same hardware?

 

[DaveC]

PDA features also mean propriatary li-ion batteries that are always draining whether in use or not.

This sucks for 2 reasons...

I'm sorry, but what the fuck are you talking about? It's an integrated circuit; it takes 1.5 Volts DC, it doesn't care where it comes from-- a Lithium Ion pack, a NiMH battery pair, a pair of Lithium Disposable AAs, or an array of lemons and a step-up transformer. Just because PDAs typically use Lithium Ion packs nowadays has no bearing on what variety of battery MUST be used with a PDA-oriented SoC or a touch-screen. All that is speical about a PDA-oriented model is that it contains support for a touch screen, a wide variety of removable media, SDIO, standby/sleep modes, etc.

Your logic is getting more and more ridiculous. Seriously, did you even look at the technical docs on the chips we're discussing?

Look smartass, do some research about battery types before spouting your condescending crap.

Do you really want to be buying new disposable lithium AA batteries every 2 weeks? I sure as hell don't.

NiMH batteries are *terrible* for slow drain always on devices, that is why no one uses them for that purpose you need to "do some research" it looks like :rolleyes: Do you want to have to charge every 2 days? I don't.

This leaves Li-Ion packs. There is no real standard for these (like there is for AAs etc) which will end up in some custom pack.

Even if you do find some widely used Li-ion it still doesn't solve the problem of having to charge the damn thing all of the time even if not in use due to the always on PDA functions. Have you ever owned a PDA? I have had a few and they were always the same, they drained the battery even when not in use. Like I said in my previous post they are a pain in the ass to have to keep after all of the time.

Now you want to make this thing into a PDA. You are missing the whole point of the GP2X type device. It is meant to be a *low cost* open GAMING platform that is relatively hassle free. All of this stuff about touchscreens, PDA functions, ever draining li-ion batteries, wireless, etc in addition to a decent CPU speed, lots of RAM is just going to just drive up cost.

 

[Epicenter]

Did I say I wanted it to be a PDA? No. Does the DS have a touch screen? Yes. Is it left on all the time? No. I never said any machine replacing the GP2X had to remain on and in a standby state when not in use like a PDA, I just said it was possible to utilize a Sleep mode if you wanted in mid-game or mid-movie or what have you. Would I recommend anyone leave their machine in sleep mode all the time he's not using it? God no.

So .. there is no reason there's a requirement for Lithium Ion batteries. This, for the record, is the least convincing reason you've given against any hardware that's not EXACTLY what the GP2X has right now. :rolleyes:

Namely, GP are already (apparently) working on a machine containing this. Is there any point in going up against them directly with what ammounts to an identical device in terms of whack, considering there are already people who are likely to go with the XGP when it arrives in addition to the 2x. Surely you just lose the ability to sell to half your demographic who've already got the same hardware?

I don't recommend GPH use this chip now that GP is already using it ... I hadn't known this until I spoke to GP about it, which was after my discussion with Craig. It seems GP's got the right idea and I hope they go forward with it; who knows what GPH will use but since they're comfortable using a very similar SoC to GP (e.g. MMSP2 and VRENDER3D both from MagicEyes) it might end up being another Samsung SoC, but perhaps a slightly lower or higher-end model depending on budget constraints and when it actually comes out.

I'm honestly not too concerned just which company comes out 'on top' in these little niche console wars, I'd just like the best possible platform to develop on. I'm just happy to see one of them is interested in using what's essentially my Dream-SoC at that price range for their next console. I couldn't really ask for more.

 

[bitcoder]

Hi guys, first of all Im a developer for many year.
Please take it easy when discussing things, Ive read this post and there are lots of nervous people here.
I think we must talk about the subject and nothing more than that.
Its great to see GPH discussing this with all of us and I hope sincerely that this is the normal to expect them always.
About the options, well, I think option 1 is far better than option 2. Having a dedicated 3D chipset is very important, we dont want just a simple gp2x evolution, we want something that can compete at least with what we have right now... and right now we hava the XGP and the PSP which seem to be great consoles. When we discuss this topic we are several years from the possible deployment of the gp2x successor so at that time anything similar with a PSP is the minimum we can expect.
Things that I consider important that gp3x or whatever should/might have:
- wifi
- integrated usb connector (usb host) so we can connector other hardware without anything else needed
- touch screen
- better constrution material (gp2x is too fragile and the quality of the material is not "great")

I see the gp3x to be more a general purpose console/PDA... the difference if you thing about that is minimal.
Having GPS and something like tomcat would be great to see it work in gp3x. Using a browser also.. why do we need one hw for this, one for that, one for playing, another for browsing, another for agenda? It doesnt make too much sense, in my point of view.
If I remember more things, Ill post them here, please keep the discussion going on.
Regards,
Sergio Freire

 

[DaveC]

... and right now we hava the XGP and the PSP which seem to be great consoles. When we discuss this topic we are several years from the possible deployment of the gp2x successor so at that time anything similar with a PSP is the minimum we can expect.
Things that I consider important that gp3x or whatever should/might have:
- wifi
- integrated usb connector (usb host) so we can connector other hardware without anything else needed
- touch screen
- better constrution material (gp2x is too fragile and the quality of the material is not "great")

I see the gp3x to be more a general purpose console/PDA...
Regards,
Sergio Freire

I think you miss the point of what the GP2X is about.

It is not a system that is in competition with the PSP. It is not about how may polygons it does and the best 3D. If that is what you want just buy a PSP. Another "me too" 3D handheld with very little commercial support is rather pointless.

It is more a system open to homebrew and emulation. If it is the latest 3D you want you are better off with a PSP. Sure you could go crazy and add a bunch of stuff and have a $400 handheld that few will buy.
Why add a bunch of stuff that adds cost for everyone and not everyone will use?

For example I could care less about PDA and wifi, I don't want to pay for it. Plus the more it costs the less popular it will be.

What I think it MUST have all else is optional:

96-128MB useable RAM for those NeoGeo titles etc.

fast CPU that can emulate at least a SNES full speed with all features (transparencies) no FS. Also it should be easy to code it. This rules out 2 core chips.

Good controls, which means *D-PAD*, no more crappy sticks.

4:3 with either 320 x 240 or 640 x 480 resolution. Those are the best resolutions for emulated games without the need for crappy, ugly fractional scaling (640 x 480 can have 2:1 pixel double).

 

[Epicenter]

I'm partially on your side, DaveC-- I don't care how many polygons/sec of 3D it can do, but that's an indicator of GPU horsepower, and therefore how much math it can do per clock tick-- therefore how much 2D work it can handle. e.g. Transparencies! Complex blending and sprite manipulation too, among other things-- and sprites would truly be drawn by a true 2D accelerator-- so you'd see slowdown drawing over a thousand sprites in all likelihood, not a few hundred with the existing blitter. This'd also reduce CPU load making more stressful game logic or CPU/Audio emulation have more cycles to get what it needs to do done in a timely fashion.

As it stands, the CPU in the GP2X is more powerful than what is required to emulate the SNES' relatively weak CPU and audio hardware but the process of simulating the SNES' graphical operations is dragging down the whole thing. Take that (mostly) out of the picture so the CPU doesn't need to worry about it, and you leave cycles for everything else. The FPU/Vector processor in an SoC like the S3C2460 might also be helpful in performing more floating-point intensive operations, esp. ones that cannot benefit from a lookup table.

I fully agree about a D-Pad; of course an analog stick and D-Pad could coexist bound to different Joystick definitions switchable in software. Then programs could pick which to use and the GUI would respond to both in the firmware.

RAM? Sure, 96MB+ is the least I'd expect with the '2x having 64MB. You do need to account for losing a bit for the OS, too-- and dedicating part for a framebuffer, etc.

For resolution .. such small 640x480 displays are still quite expensive; 320x240 should really be fine for such a device.

PDA functionality is as simple as adding a touchscreen and software support for PIM-- WiFi as we've discussed is cheap to add, and it isn't going to kill you to turn it off. If nothing else it'll stop people making topics like 'Waaah, Why doesn't ____ have Wifi, I have sand in my vagina ((('. You didn't complain about having to pay for the camera functionality or MPEG-4 encoding features in the GP2X's MMSP2 did you? Then again, maybe you did. Regardless, with a general purpose device like an SoC you have to expect extra features anyway.

 

[BradN]

I'd like to see a future handheld be able to charge NiMH batteries when connected to the AC. You still have all the freedom of cheap, swappable batteries, and if you're lazy, you can use it pretty much like a proprietary internal battery system. The only problem is you'll get morons trying to charge alkalines and wondering why they're only charging twice and then leaking all over. I bet it could be done without a lot of added unit cost, but it would be trickier to engineer.

 

[DaveC]

I'm partially on your side, DaveC-- I don't care how many polygons/sec of 3D it can do, but that's an indicator of GPU horsepower, and therefore how much math it can do per clock tick-- therefore how much 2D work it can handle. e.g. Transparencies! Complex blending and sprite manipulation too, among other things-- and sprites would truly be drawn by a true 2D accelerator-- so you'd see slowdown drawing over a thousand sprites in all likelihood, not a few hundred with the existing blitter. This'd also reduce CPU load making more stressful game logic or CPU/Audio emulation have more cycles to get what it needs to do done in a timely fashion.

As long as this GPU can actually be used by emulators to take said load off of CPU. Sometimes setting things up and synchronizing for special purpose 3D GPUs to do the work takes more processing time than actually doing it with just brute force on a fast CPU. This makes coding complex as it is now not a simple port and has to be tweaked to be efficient on such a GPU.

I think some tests should be done to see how well it actually works. I remember when the GP2X was announced they were saying how great it will be with 2 cores as one could take load off of the other and perfect SNES would be a breeze. We all now know now that that second core has been proven pretty useless for that. I guess it is theory vs reality.

I fully agree about a D-Pad; of course an analog stick and D-Pad could coexist bound to different Joystick definitions switchable in software. Then programs could pick which to use and the GUI would respond to both in the firmware.

Now you start running out of room. Having two controllers on one handheld gets crowded and one ends up being a bit less accessable. Plus you again have the added cost of components and more assembly costs. With that configuration you would also not have room for buttons near the stick which is useful for vertical shooters and vertical MAME games.

PDA functionality is as simple as adding a touchscreen and software support for PIM-- WiFi as we've discussed is cheap to add, and it isn't going to kill you to turn it off. If nothing else it'll stop people making topics like 'Waaah, Why doesn't ____ have Wifi, I have sand in my vagina ((('.

Well again it is what goes with PDA that is the problem. Only Li-ion batteries are practical for a device that is always on and it drains the battery at all times. I don't want to have to keep after the damn thing constantly and have it dead if I don't use it and charge it every week. Plus when you go to use it your run time is reduced as the battery has been draining itself constantly. It is a pain in the ass, just one more "thing to do" on the list. You also know that leaving li-ion batteries sit uncharged for a while destroys them right? Charging it also wears it out as you have limited charge cycles. You are FORCED to keep the thing charged, whether you use it or not. Basically you are forced to destroy the battery, you just get the choice of how fast to kill it Plus you get the assured death when the battery dies and GP doesn't make them anymore. The device is only good as long as you can buy the custom battery. Fuck that.

I really don't care for the idea of scribbling on the screen scratching it all up either. Yes you can get those protector things but all of those layers of film starts to make the display look a little foggy.

Couldn't we just have an extra SD slot that can be used for the stupid wifi that people can't seem to live without? That way if some of us like me that don't give a rat's ass about wifi can use it for stuff like more storage etc?

You didn't complain about having to pay for the camera functionality or MPEG-4 encoding features in the GP2X's MMSP2 did you? Then again, maybe you did. Regardless, with a general purpose device like an SoC you have to expect extra features anyway.

No I didn't complain about it because the camera functionality of the chip wasn't used. I am referring to the extra cost of the implemented features. If they added a camera and charged an extra $50.00 for it then I would have said it was a waste of money to add.