Designing The Gp2x's Successor - Hardware Selection Poll

[Epicenter]

Lots of PDAs use regular AAs and often get superior battery life to their Lithium-Ion powered counterparts; the Nino series and some HPCs for example. You claim PDAs are always on; that's true only in the most technical sense. The SoC essentially shuts itself down and all that remains powered is a tiny trickle of current to the RAM to keep whatever you were doing intact, to ensure instantaneous power-on. This drain is unimaginably tiny-- you literally COULD run it off a lemon without problems. In fact a friend of mine's NiMH-powered Nino PDA has been uncharged for weeks and is still going strong-- and this is a unit with a power-sucking MIPS processor!

As for your laughable argument about implementation ... comparing a standards-compliant GPU with OpenGL-ES API with concurrent bus/memory access with the ARM9 main processor and an AFP9 Floating Point/Vector unit with the SAME access .. plus an additional supplemetary DSP .. to an ARM940T processor that can't access RAM on its own and has to have data spoon fed to/from it and has a tiny cache, is comparing apples and oranges, plain and simple. Implementing support for a standards-compliant GPU could be done easily in applications or implemented at the SDL library level to accelerate EXISTING applications without more than a recompile with the new lib, just like adding Paeryn's hardware-accelerated SDL library to one's application. I'm not even touching on the issue of a company like Samsung or TI's excellent documentation of their hardware compared to a company like MagicEyes who keeps it a secret from their customers how it works.

Edit: Magiceyes; not PowerVR.

 

[Yono]

...

RAM? Sure, 96MB+ is the least I'd expect with the '2x having 64MB. You do need to account for losing a bit for the OS, too-- and dedicating part for a framebuffer, etc.

For resolution .. such small 640x480 displays are still quite expensive; 320x240 should really be fine for such a device.

...

I definitely agree with the RAM, it in addition with OpenGL compliance could allow for ports of simpler 3D games (I'm thinking 97/98 era, but correct me if I'm mistaken). Do you think 640x480 handheld screens would drop in price by the time of the next device release? I'm sure that companies like Samsung and such are probably working hard in R&D for that making resolution more cheaply for devices such as cell phones.

 

[Epicenter]

640x480 should get cheaper but I doubt we really need higher; and 320x240 would keep costs down and negate the need to scale up emulator video output. OpenGL would let us get away with a lot more than just 3D, something DaveC doesn't seem to grasp no matter how many times I say it. Some of the most advanced 2D games on the PC side of things are able to do the things they do becaue of 2D OpenGL acceleration on the video card.

 

[iignotus]

A 640x480 4" screen would still be best, and I'd be willing to pay for however much it cost in any next gen open handheld. With a fast enough, accelerated graphics processor, you can filter the video while upscaling and still get fullspeed for most things. I actually like filtering.

/awaits flames

 

[Anhaedra]

If they need high capacity batteries, could they use something that is easily gotten, like iPod batteries? And I would go for option 1, since that has a FPU and 3D acceleration, the lack of an FPU really sucks in the GP2X. Couldn't they give it a 400mhz CPU with FPU and 3D acceleration? Or would that be too expensive?

 

[DaveC]

Lots of PDAs use regular AAs and often get superior battery life to their Lithium-Ion powered counterparts; the Nino series and some HPCs for example. You claim PDAs are always on; that's true only in the most technical sense. The SoC essentially shuts itself down and all that remains powered is a tiny trickle of current to the RAM to keep whatever you were doing intact, to ensure instantaneous power-on. This drain is unimaginably tiny-- you literally COULD run it off a lemon without problems. In fact a friend of mine's NiMH-powered Nino PDA has been uncharged for weeks and is still going strong-- and this is a unit with a power-sucking MIPS processor!

Well every PDA I had was dead in 2-3 weeks. These included the Zodiac and a Cassiopeia PPC. The last PDA I have owned with AAs was an old Apple Newton. If they did this hopefully it would be like that Nino, but still I really could care less about PDA stuff.

A 640x480 4" screen would still be best, and I'd be willing to pay for however much it cost in any next gen open handheld. With a fast enough, accelerated graphics processor, you can filter the video while upscaling and still get fullspeed for most things. I actually like filtering.

/awaits flames

You like filtering? You like blurry pixels? Seriously you don't need filtering as you could just pixel double many things. Filtering would be good for GB/GBC/GG though.

 

[Epicenter]

Well every PDA I had was dead in 2-3 weeks. These included the Zodiac and a Cassiopeia PPC.
...
You like filtering? You like blurry pixels? Seriously you don't need filtering as you could just pixel double many things. Filtering would be good for GB/GBC/GG though.

Well, my ASUS and Dell PDAs usually lasted longer than that. They could stay alive for over a week without being charged or used heavily. The only real issue with LiIon is like you said, proprietary batteries. The biggest thing I see that needs to change about how the machine's powered is to perhaps add 1 or 2 more AA slots for more current overall, and at the very least put a sticker on there stating DO NOT USE DISPOSABLE ALKALINE BATTERIES. Also the way the GP2X divides its power down is markedly inefficient, that could be greatly improved so there is not so much waste.

I really hope they'd just go with 320x240. 640x480 can be a pain with limited benefits given how much more strain it'll put on the GPU for 3D apps everyone will want to run at the new higher res.

Pixel doubling can look awfully blocky; look at GB emulation scaled to 'maintain aspect ratio' in GnuBoy2x. Sure it can look better with a precise multiple of the resolution, but a filter can do a lot of good. I'd recommend something like bilinear filtering rather than some weird TV-imitation like a lot of emulators use. 2xSai and Eagle .. I think they look pretty disgusting. They ruin the artistic merit of the original pixel art and smear things nastily. Now, scaling a 320x240 image to a 16:9 aspect ratio will just plain never look good. Letterboxing it is better .. but there's obvious problems with that. It's why I'm still trying to get Gamepark to change the 'full' XGP res to 320x240 or 640x480 ... the Mini has more advantages-- a 320x240 LCD, a D-Pad .. the only thing it really lacks is the huge RAM capacity and WiFi.

 

[iignotus]

You like filtering?

That sounds familiar.

You like blurry pixels?

What the hell are you on about?

Seriously you don't need filtering as you could just pixel double many things.

You would still be doubling the pixels up, but you would also be adding a filter. A simple resize is too chunky looking sometimes.

Filtering would be good for GB/GBC/GG though.

And then you go on to say how it's actually a good thing...

I don't know where you get this blurry pixel business, you must have used too many shitty bilinear filters in your time. This is the kind of filtering I'm talking about:

Unfiltered SNES at 640x480 in ZSNES.

Same scene with Bilinear and Super Eagle filtering on.

First image, unfiltered, zoomed in (without processing).

Second image, same scene, with the filters applied, zoomed in (without processing).

And it's that good during play. No blurriness to speak of, at all.

Addendum: Long post to make; Epicenter, I think you're unfamiliar with 2xSai, Super Eagle, Super Sai, and other filters. There's no blurring or "nasty smearing" whatsoever, it just looks a lot better and less blocky, especially at 1280x1024 to fit my monitor. Sure it's different, if that's the same thing as this "artistic merit" you speak of, but it is much more pleasing to look at.

There are good filters, and there are bad filters. Of course, I would only recommend using the good ones

EDIT: Better zoomed in pictures.

 

[DaveC]

You would still be doubling the pixels up, but you would also be adding a filter. A simple resize is too chunky looking sometimes.

You don't have to add a filter when doubling.

If we had a 640 x 480 3.5" screen and doubled the pixels for a 320 x 240 image the (4) 640 x 480 sized pixels would be NO blockier than a single pixel on a 320 x 240 3.5" screen.

1:1 still looks the best with no filtering though.

Well, my ASUS and Dell PDAs usually lasted longer than that. They could stay alive for over a week without being charged or used heavily.

That would be unacceptable to me on a gaming device. I would have a dead or low battery after a week of nonuse? see above post, that would be a pain in the ass. I will stick with a device that is always truly OFF thank you.

 

[iignotus]

You don't have to add a filter when doubling.

I didn't say you have to add a filter to double-up the pixels. Please read and understand what I write.

If we had a 640 x 480 3.5" screen and doubled the pixels for a 320 x 240 image the (4) 640 x 480 sized pixels would be NO blockier than a single pixel on a 320 x 240 3.5" screen.

What? Of course it would be blockier. That's the whole point. It would be four times blockier. Look at my images, if you haven't.

1:1 still looks the best with no filtering though.

Very true. But 1:1 on a 640x480 screen would be ridiculous.

 

[Yono]

I'm curious, how do computers deal with the different resolutions without becoming overly blocky?

 

[iignotus]

I'm curious, how do computers deal with the different resolutions without becoming overly blocky?

Explain what you mean.

 

[Epicenter]

They display in a window or use a filter to skew it to fullscreen. But most consoles use a 4:3 aspect ratio and so do VGA-compliant monitors and LCD panels unless you pick some peculiar model with widescreen native resolution. In fact, an LCD monitor just has 1 resolution, e.g. mine is 1280x1024. If I use anything else I get a blurry picture as it has to scale and skew it to the new one and filter it.

Personally, I think 2xSai and Eagle look disgusting, they ruin the original graphical style of the games for me. I'd never want to use them on a handheld, that's for sure.

That would be unacceptable to me on a gaming device. I would have a dead or low battery after a week of nonuse? see above post, that would be a pain in the ass. I will stick with a device that is always truly OFF thank you.

This happens to my NiMH batteries anyway, and it doesn't really bother me very much.

 

[iignotus]

They display in a window or use a filter to skew it to fullscreen. But most consoles use a 4:3 aspect ratio and so do VGA-compliant monitors and LCD panels unless you pick some peculiar model with widescreen native resolution. In fact, an LCD monitor just has 1 resolution, e.g. mine is 1280x1024. If I use anything else I get a blurry picture as it has to scale and skew it to the new one and filter it.

I know this, but what does it have to do with what we're talking about?

 

[Epicenter]

I'm curious, how do computers deal with the different resolutions without becoming overly blocky?

that ...

 

[JaqMs]

I think it would be pretty cool if the GP3X was just a wide touchscreen, no buttons. If touchscreens get better in the future, we could just put the controls (Dpad, analog, buttons, etc) on the touchscreen. That way, there would be no problems with unresponsive controls since the controls could be programmed. Oh well, just a dream.

 

[Epicenter]

Touchscreens have absolutely zero tactile response. I couldn't play that if my life depended on it... a lot of controls do that on the DS and you often have to SLAM your thumb into the thing to get it to register, and that's not good for the panel. It's also very inaccurate. Touch sensors that exceed those of the DS would cost a fortune and there'd still be no response; no upward pressure from the 'button' to signal you when to apply pressure again or to release your thumb more easily resulting in increased fatique and reduced speed at which you could manipulate the controls.

Unless you're sliding windows around and drawing on a SMARTboard flat surfaces make little sense as a control mechanism.

 

[iignotus]

I'm curious, how do computers deal with the different resolutions without becoming overly blocky?

that ...

Oh lmao. Makes sense now. But you know, without a quote, it threw me for a loop.

 

[JaqMs]

Oh, simple. Perhaps there could be attached finger styluses, which you put around your thumb (like a circular strap with a stylus point sticking out, not the ones that point directly outwards from your finger). I guess the only really necessary buttons would be the shoulder buttons.

 

[BradN]

That would be unacceptable to me on a gaming device. I would have a dead or low battery after a week of nonuse? see above post, that would be a pain in the ass. I will stick with a device that is always truly OFF thank you.

Well, after a week of non-use, your battery probably already has lost a few percent of its power, and you might as well keep another set charged just to be ready Some particular cells are probably better resistant to self discharge though (I know sanyo has a special type of 2000mAH for that).

But, if properly implemented (true suspend to flash memory) with just the RTC kept active, it shouldn't use a noticeable amount of power. Think of how long smoke detector / wall clock batteries last.