Fishbong
man of poor reputation
The question that i tried to ask is: Why is retreating from Iraq a good thing?
IMO this would be the most unresponsible thing to do.
IMO this would be the most unresponsible thing to do.
virusx
Virus Infected Person
Just my 2 cents...
There is a difference between helping some people to free themselves from a dictator and invade a country with armed forces. Of course there is some good men trying to establish a real democracy in Irak, but I don't think Gw Bush did this with that idea in mind (If he ever had any idea in his own head).
I'm french and I'm really thankful to the USA for what they've done during WW2 for Europe.
But I don't think it's the same for Irak (as it was for Koweit).
For the Womd problem, I think, us, so called developed and civilized world should clean our proper dirt.
How many H and A bomb did Irak launches ? We seriously cannot tell others people what's right or wrong when we've done all this in the first place.
Every wars in this world has always been made for economical reasons. Power and politics always have hiden all this behind some crappy religious or nationalist reasons using the fear we all got for what we don't know.
I hope all this will end one day, really...
sorry for my english <_<
There is a difference between helping some people to free themselves from a dictator and invade a country with armed forces. Of course there is some good men trying to establish a real democracy in Irak, but I don't think Gw Bush did this with that idea in mind (If he ever had any idea in his own head).
I'm french and I'm really thankful to the USA for what they've done during WW2 for Europe.
But I don't think it's the same for Irak (as it was for Koweit).
For the Womd problem, I think, us, so called developed and civilized world should clean our proper dirt.
How many H and A bomb did Irak launches ? We seriously cannot tell others people what's right or wrong when we've done all this in the first place.
Every wars in this world has always been made for economical reasons. Power and politics always have hiden all this behind some crappy religious or nationalist reasons using the fear we all got for what we don't know.
I hope all this will end one day, really...
sorry for my english <_<
Epicenter
Well-Known Member
Yes, let's have all the troops come home and let Iraq descend into an anarchistic hellhole, and after a lot more random bloodshed than is seen now, we'll have a violent coup and a new dictator, followed by lots and lots of ethnic cleansing. Doesn't that sound fun? Rethink your post.Over in the USA this is breaking news. The vote was greatly in favor of a new outlook, and so, the democratic party sweeps into both the house of representatives and the Senate (99.9% likely).
This means a lot for America, including some new stratagies on the War in Iraq, and quite possibly the pulling of US troops
Virusx, the issue is that Iraq was under sanctions restricting development of WMD since the Gulf War after invading their neighbor Kuwait-- and using chemical weapons to kill hundreds of thousands of their own people, and of course Kuwaitis.. like how Germany was under regulation after WWI not to engage in unrestricted U-boat warfare... well much like WWII Germany, Iraq had been violating UN sanctions by launching SCUD missiles exceeding sanctioned range, refusing inspections, hiding and destroying evidence, burying equipment used to refine uranium, they had papers documenting chemical weapons test, mobile chemical weapons development laboratories stocked with antichemical weapons gear ... there was evidence of attempts to get WMDs once more.
But more important than that, Saddam's regime was responsible for the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians for the sake of weapons testing, ethnic cleaning and to oppress the people after an assassination attempt on Saddam. It's not like Iraq could rise up and knock Saddam out of power, he had quite a military underneath him. The US and coalition forces were able to topple him, but it was not even remotely as easy as a lot of Bush-haters love to claim-- like the Iraqi people could just wake up one morning, have some coffee and overthrow the government and establish democracy. It doesn't work that way. Regardless of the unfortunate aftereffects of the war, I do believe Bush's statement of 'history will prove us right'-- there may be a possibility that a democratic Iraq/Afghanistan could help pave the way for a Middle East that's not the clusterfuck it is today.
It's funny, you do something to help people and take a murderous regime out of power, and you are defamed for it. You let murder go on because it doesn't affect the US (I'm looking at you, Rwanda) and you are defamed for it. Which is it going to be? The hated ostrich with his head in the sand or the hated warrior who does what he thinks is the righteous course of action. Or should we take the middleground like the UN-- wait for the slaughter to end and then drop food and fresh water on the fields of corpses and pretend everything's alright?
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Azalin
What was that? It sounded like a, a sound of some
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2006
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- Age
- 34
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- British Columbia
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- www.loremaster.a-host.info
Epicenter, its not that i defame them for helping Iraq, i'm just trying to point out that if the states is going to play the "Righteous defender of justice and freedom" card, then you are going to have to do it in more than one place, and leave the country when its people's ask you to. Was the states involved in the recent conflict between lebanon and isreal? not to me knowledge. Did the state go and "save" yugoslavia or bosnia when it was embroiled in civil war? Nope. Did the states help Rwanada? Nope. Or what about this: N.Korea has nuclear weapons, is run by an insane dictator, and is definetly opressing its people, Why isn't the states attacking them? Apparently they fit the states criteria for places to "liberate and save." Oh, wait, i forgot, N.korea doesn't have any useful natural resources, and its army is actually able to defend the country :rolleyes:
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@Fishbong, yep-you are right. Stupid to go in! Even more stupid to pull out now. We have to stay in some way. Such a mess, conceived by stupid men who just had no vision to see it through to the end. Very happy to see Bush in such a mess, but who is gonna clear up properly after him? I just don't know what to do about Iraq, but just pulling out would be a catastrophe.
@DCGM, stop being such an arrogant, self righteous, egotistical twat, bossing others around, believing that you alone understand the art of debate. You really are ridiculous sometimes!
@DCGM, stop being such an arrogant, self righteous, egotistical twat, bossing others around, believing that you alone understand the art of debate. You really are ridiculous sometimes!
@Fishbong, yep-you are right. Stupid to go in! Even more stupid to pull out now. We have to stay in some way. Such a mess, conceived by stupid men who just had no vision to see it through to the end. Very happy to see Bush in such a mess, but who is gonna clear up properly after him? I just don't know what to do about Iraq, but just pulling out would be a catastrophe.
@DCGM, stop being such an arrogant, self righteous, egotistical twat, bossing others around, believing that you alone understand the art of debate. You really are ridiculous sometimes!
@DCGM, stop being such an arrogant, self righteous, egotistical twat, bossing others around, believing that you alone understand the art of debate. You really are ridiculous sometimes!
Epicenter
Well-Known Member
I don't honestly doubt we do end up taking military action against them eventually with how they are threatening the region and global stability, with the strong probability of selling nuclear weapons to terrorists on the black market, the same threat Saddam would pose-- not using WMD themselves but distributing it to those wieth nothing to lose and no country to worry about retaliation against. North Korea needs something, anything, to prop up the totalitarian regime that is squandering foreign aid on military uses much like Saddam during the 'oil for food' scandal.
North Korea is a tricky proposition because I am certain if we attacked them, they'd love to go out in a blaze of glory and inflict as much damage as possible upon the entire Korean peninsula. And if they had/have the resources to do so, Japan as well. I do not personally believe they have the means yet to deliver a nuclear warhead to a target and detonate it there, there is also evidence to support the possibility their underground nuclear test was set off by conventional explosives and no proper nuclear trigger exists. The way I see it, there will be a confrontation or North Korea will collapse in on itself. The issue isn't natural resources (we didn't invade Iraq for oil, and if we did, our gas would not be achieving record high prices) and it's not about N.Korea defending themselves effectively (the country is in an endless financial crisis and can barely feed its citizens. Its army means very little in an age like this one, where a large standing army means little with the prevalence of air and sea-based warfare and would be more effective for attempting to invade South Korea than to repel an invading force like the US or a US-led coalition.) Right now it seems to me the best course of action is political, not military.
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Goity
VIP Sleaze
Political beliefs suck.
D
dcgms_parachute_account_
Guest
Epicenter and everone who wants to know why I said pulling troops is a good thing:I never said pulling EVERY soldier was a good idea. I just don't think (nor do the democrats) that having this many men and women in that country is a good idea. The GOP want to add more troops. Why?? This is a suicide mission. This demos offer new strategies and and a new perspective on this mess of a war. That's precisely what this nation needs, some new leadership.
We shouldnt have ever been there in the first place, and Bush certainly didnt think this out long term. All he saw were the floating dollar signs over his head. What else is new <_<.
If you don't like it, TOOOOO BAD.
Another point: Why is Bush in iraq helping the people there with OUR OWN MEN, but not doing a thing in Darfur? The people there are being abused and brutally murdered by the janjaweed, and we arent doing anything to stop it. Why? Because Bush cannot profit from it. Look at what's going on. He WILL NOT do anything. It's disgusting.
This entire war is about money, and anyone who's intelligent can see that. We STILL haven't found Bin Laden :lol:. We need to change direction or else we'll continue on the circular path we've been on for the past 3.5 years....
We shouldnt have ever been there in the first place, and Bush certainly didnt think this out long term. All he saw were the floating dollar signs over his head. What else is new <_<.
Excuse me, I created this thread for some friendly discussion and opinions. I'm not going to allow some idiot child who doesnt have the faintest idea what he's talking about call me stupid in my own thread. Notice he hasn't returned? Probably got too complicated for him. Best that he doesnt, as it's only hurting his reputation on these forums.
If you don't like it, TOOOOO BAD.
Another point: Why is Bush in iraq helping the people there with OUR OWN MEN, but not doing a thing in Darfur? The people there are being abused and brutally murdered by the janjaweed, and we arent doing anything to stop it. Why? Because Bush cannot profit from it. Look at what's going on. He WILL NOT do anything. It's disgusting.
This entire war is about money, and anyone who's intelligent can see that. We STILL haven't found Bin Laden :lol:. We need to change direction or else we'll continue on the circular path we've been on for the past 3.5 years....
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LordFu
Member
Wow, people, stop using circular logic to defend our presence in Iraq. Iraq was just part of the Neo-Con agenda for global domination. We didn't go there to defend the people from Saddam. We're arguably worse or as bad as he ever was, for the average Iraqi.
:lol: The Middle East is a "clusterfuck" today, because of Europe and America. Look at history. They overthrew the democratic government of Iran because they refused to give BP a monopoly on their oil. The US then gave Iraq WMDs to fight the non-democratic government that Brittish Intelligence basically created. We were so eager to invade the Middle East in the '70s that we had Israel attack one of our destroyers, killing most of the men aboard, even strafing the life boats (a WAR CRIME!), to try to get the American public behind the idea. We created and funded the terrorist, the dictators, and these problems being dealt with today. Facts. They're a beautiful thing.
Now, I agree, a complete pull-out of Iraq would be disaster for the Iraqi people, and I don't support the idea. But it's time to come clean about the real motives behind going in, and face the future of the situation with honesty, something we've been unable or unwilling to do.
Anyway, on the elections, both corporate parties work for the same masters, so who cares which one's in power? It's the classic "good cop, bad cop" routine. Stop being so blind. Wake up. We are about to lose what little remains of our precious freedom. They have destroyed Habeas Corpus. They have removed our protection from Martial Law. They have eliminated every single protection afforded us in The Bill of Rights! They are building internment camps all across the country! What is really going on here? We are two steps away from Fascism.
It's bigger than Democrat Vs. Republican. This is Government Vs. Us. It's time to stop letting ourselves be so easily divided on idiotic issues like flag burning and gay marriage. It's time that We the People take back control of our government, and you're not going to get it done with the establishment parties. There is no "lesser of two evils". They are the same evil, playing us against each other. All to keep us from realizing who the real enemies of freedom are. Them.
:lol: The Middle East is a "clusterfuck" today, because of Europe and America. Look at history. They overthrew the democratic government of Iran because they refused to give BP a monopoly on their oil. The US then gave Iraq WMDs to fight the non-democratic government that Brittish Intelligence basically created. We were so eager to invade the Middle East in the '70s that we had Israel attack one of our destroyers, killing most of the men aboard, even strafing the life boats (a WAR CRIME!), to try to get the American public behind the idea. We created and funded the terrorist, the dictators, and these problems being dealt with today. Facts. They're a beautiful thing.
Now, I agree, a complete pull-out of Iraq would be disaster for the Iraqi people, and I don't support the idea. But it's time to come clean about the real motives behind going in, and face the future of the situation with honesty, something we've been unable or unwilling to do.
Anyway, on the elections, both corporate parties work for the same masters, so who cares which one's in power? It's the classic "good cop, bad cop" routine. Stop being so blind. Wake up. We are about to lose what little remains of our precious freedom. They have destroyed Habeas Corpus. They have removed our protection from Martial Law. They have eliminated every single protection afforded us in The Bill of Rights! They are building internment camps all across the country! What is really going on here? We are two steps away from Fascism.
It's bigger than Democrat Vs. Republican. This is Government Vs. Us. It's time to stop letting ourselves be so easily divided on idiotic issues like flag burning and gay marriage. It's time that We the People take back control of our government, and you're not going to get it done with the establishment parties. There is no "lesser of two evils". They are the same evil, playing us against each other. All to keep us from realizing who the real enemies of freedom are. Them.
nickspoon
vultum stultum habes
Nihilism is great (I'm all for it myself), but you really should vote. Maybe help make your meaningless existence slightly more enjoyable.I used to vote Libertarian, but got tired of making the trip down to the polls, wasting my time. Same shit as the Mickey Mouse write-in vote.
You humans have my sympathy
With the situation in Iraq, we really should have left them to themselves. It's not our problem until there's oil involved, eh? However, pulling out won't work until the country is at least mildly stable. Now, for obvious reasons, is an especially bad time to start.
I don't lie about being a Bush-hater. He has so far proved to be a useless President. I'm glad the Democrats are in, maybe America will finally get some common sense bashed into it. Hell, maybe most Americans will finally realise they have their own brains.
Disclaimer: I do not live and have never lived in America; my views are from a warped British perspective.
(P.S. I fully endorse the use of the word clusterfuck)
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No, you created this so you could spout your beliefs and belittle other peoples. I agree, Bush is bad, but when someone says something you don't agree with, you just dismiss their views in an arrogant manner. You ain't so old yourself. He called you stupid in your own thread? Oh, the cheek of it. Unbelievable.
Maybe he hasn't come back because he has other things to do? No, stupid idea.
Anyway, as I said. You don't own the debating crown around here, we can all add to a debate.
But as it's your thread, I will say no more. Sorry for contributing to this, your thread.
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Epicenter
Well-Known Member
... ahaha. Ahaha. AHAHAH. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA erhem *cough*
I'd just love to hear some more about this one. Point me to your sources, please. Also, you might be the best person to ask for convincing evidence that the holocaust didn't happen and that the US blew up the WTC on 9/11 to aid the New World Zionist Conspiracy.
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saehn
Graphician
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Goity
VIP Sleaze
Are you... are you talking to yourself?
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Fishbong
man of poor reputation
Oh, its your thread allright.
Say, in your country, is it allowed to shoot someone because he is trespassing your thread?
No? How awfully sad.
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Epicenter
Well-Known Member
No aspect of this article even remotely hints at any sort of 'fact', it drips with controversy. This is something that can, and obviously has been, argued over for decades. It's much easier to write you off as a whackjob conspiracy theorist, however, given your stance on believing the Republican party is trying to achieve world domination (ahahahaha). I'm not wild about either party, but to believe something that outrageous, you must be a few fries short of a Happy Meal. Just keep that in mind when you enter into a debate as one of those things not to say.
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LordFu
Member
Well, lets see, who should we believe, the government or the survivors? Or maybe the men flying the Israeli planes who tried to refuse the attack order? Or maybe the Admiral who was ordered directly by the President not to assist the USS Liberty? Would you take his word for it? All these men insist that it was a planed attack to give America a reason to enter the Six Day War.
"The American crew claims that after Liberty had been torpedoed, Israeli boats circled the ship firing machine guns at descended (unmanned) life rafts and sailors on board the ship."
Argue the facts or shut up. You are a fool.
As for the Neo-Cons and their desire to run the world:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/Rebuildi...casDefenses.pdf
It must be an easy choice to write me off, when it's either that or facing reality.
"The American crew claims that after Liberty had been torpedoed, Israeli boats circled the ship firing machine guns at descended (unmanned) life rafts and sailors on board the ship."
Argue the facts or shut up. You are a fool.
As for the Neo-Cons and their desire to run the world:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/Rebuildi...casDefenses.pdf
It must be an easy choice to write me off, when it's either that or facing reality.
Epicenter
Well-Known Member
Please loosen your tinfoil hat, kind sir. Thank you.
This becomes a confusing statement to hear when it's spoken by someone who lives in their own little world.LordFu said:
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LordFu
Member
Edit: Here's what the Vetrans of Foreign Wars had to say about the Liberty vetran's claims against our government. I'm sure they're not reliable either, right?
http://www.vfw.org/index.cfm?fa=news.magDt...=3&mid=2639
Since you're obviously not bothering to read these links, I'll quote the pertinant information.
Not good enough?
Read this: http://www.washington-report.org/backissue...98/9803026.html
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