Debs resigns

[EvilDragon]

Well, just my two cents:

Of course it's awful and definitely not nice sending inappropriate eMails.

However, everyone who has a bit of business experience should know upfront that this will happen if you don't communicate with your customers.

So while the emails sent to Debs were out-of-the-loop and improperly worded, they wouldn't have existed if there was more transparent communication.

This is something that should be clear if you run a business.

People who are angry don't think clearly but send curses via mail. Not nice, but normal.

While some might say "Well, he said we're waiting for parts, so there's no need for updates, everything has been said"... well, not true.

Craig could've filled the waiting time with a lot of stuff.

Keymat layout, prototype pictures and videos, even some documentation explaining how things are done and where the current issues are, etc.

People often don't expect leadtimes of 12 weeks, but that's normal in mass production. Yes, you can get stock right away, but it does cost 5 - 10 times the price.

That would've been some neat information, especially as he mentioned he'll document the full process for people who want to know how such things work.

I haven't seen a single video or picture of a working prototype in a casing or similar. Wouldn't that have been something to show and calm everyone down?

While we were waiting for the nubs way way back in Pandoraland, I made multiple videos to keep everyone happy. It made everyone remember what they were waiting for.

It worked, refund requests were rather low, and only a few angry mails happened.

So in a nutshell:

IF there are not enough updates, THEN people will send angry, improper emails

IF people send angry, improper emails THEN the person who responds to the emails will eventually quit

So if Craig would've posted more updates, pictures, videos, documentation, then there would've been no reason for Debs to leave.

 

[PokeParadox]

ED I tend to agree - The main gripe I have is the lack of updates - I am a patient person, but when it was promised that there would be in depth videos of the entire process etc, and we actually get sparse updates on kickstarter very so often, it rubs me the wrong way.

 

[FaeMinx]

Not that this is strictly relevant to the topic at hand, but from my perspective and personal experience I've found that it is identification with thought or the content of thought that leads to being a slave to the ego (or not even realising you have an ego... As ego is purely based within thought).


So wether you think too little or think too much, as long as you are identified with thought, you are likely to be delusional (to greater or lesser degrees depending).


I make the statement that you are neither your thoughts, your emotions, nor your body.


What are you then?


You are the space - the awareness, in which thought, emotion, and sensation can be experienced. If you realise and know yourself as space/consciousness, then you can decide which thoughts and emotions you entertain within yourself and if you choose to act them out or not.


If you do not yet realise yourself as space/consciousness, and instead believe you are your thoughts and how you feel about them, then you will be compelled to act on them... Because if you do not defend your 'position' then you will feel diminished/wronged. And no matter what position you take, it will always be relative... and thus not entirely true. This is what I mean by unconscious behaviour.

 

[Askarus]

OK, let's all come to an end.

If we all would have really made a rational decision we wouldn't have started that discussion.

We would have said that we don't know the exact circumstances for every single email and can't judge.

Instead we saw someone else's opinion and had to respond (supporting the opinion or not)

No matter if there is a big lack of information about what exactly happened.

In the end, did we all choose to write what we wrote, or did we only write because we had to defend our opinion we stated before?

In this whole thread, this post was my only real decision.

This proves: Emotions rule peoples mind and behavior.

Don't you all feel the same way?

 

[FaeMinx]

At our current state of evolution, in general terms, you are correct.


Unless I make an effort to raise my awareness above the level of thought and emotion, then I will act unconsciously. We all do. And just because I am able to be conscious in one moment, doesn't mean I won't slip back into unconscious thinking / behaviour the next.


Raising your consciousness takes effort and discipline, it doesn't happen naturally. Naturally we are prone to asshattery.


That all of us aren't asshats all of the time is actually rather encouraging and give hope that human beings are evolving, however slow that might be.

 

[WizardStan]

There are situations where people don't decide what they do.

No there aren't. You may not have thought about it but your brain still made the decision. It doesn't have to be a conscious thought process, just a process that your brain goes through. If you do something without thinking about it YOU ARE STILL THE PERSON WHO DID THAT THING. Your body, your brain, YOU. No one else made you do that thing, no matter how emotionally manipulated you were. You and you alone, with your hands and mind did the thing. That was the point of the greek story Moxie mentioned: in the past they used to believe that when emotions were high you were entirely literally being controlled by an entity that wasn't you, a spirit. We now know that it's all processes in your brain. If your brain has, for whatever reason, decided to lash out violently then it was your brain that came to that violent decision. Input + past experiences = output. The more thought you put into something the more past experience you can apply and change the outcome, but even without thinking it is still you. I don't know how to make this any clearer.

let me rob you or your spouse of 300 pounds and show up at your door and let us see how civil you will act

If you rob me of $300 and I come to your door and calmly tell you what you have done is wrong and try to reach a satisfactory conclusion for all, that's a decision I have made. If I show up and beat you senseless then it is still my decisions. If I torch your house murdering your entire family over that $300, it is extreme but IT IS STILL ME WHO MADE THE CHOICE TO DO THAT. If you do something that makes me angry and I then commit a violent act against you then I am guilty of committing that violent act. You are not guilty of murdering your family, you are not guilty of beating yourself up, you are guilty of stealing $300 and I would be guilty of the violent acts.

So if Craig would've posted more updates, pictures, videos, documentation, then there would've been no reason for Debs to leave

There's definitely a cause and effect going on here, no one is arguing against that, my problem is when people absolve the abusers of their crime "because they were angry", because it's "human nature". Whatever. If Craig had kept with the updates people wouldn't have gotten so angry as to send such emails but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be bothered by the people sending the emails, that we shouldn't say something against them. "Guys, I know you're angry, but sending death threats never made anything better": good! "Guys, I know you're angry, and it's all Craig's fault, you just couldn't help yourself": bullshit. People stop themselves from being saying and doing violent things every day, is it too much to ask that when people do occasionally slip up that we don't find a way to blame it on someone else?

 

[Askarus]

There are situations where people don't decide what they do.

No there aren't. You may not have thought about it but your brain still made the decision. It doesn't have to be a conscious thought process, just a process that your brain goes through. If you do something without thinking about it YOU ARE STILL THE PERSON WHO DID THAT THING. Your body, your brain, YOU. No one else made you do that thing, no matter how emotionally manipulated you were. You and you alone, with your hands and mind did the thing. That was the point of the greek story Moxie mentioned: in the past they used to believe that when emotions were high you were entirely literally being controlled by an entity that wasn't you, a spirit. We now know that it's all processes in your brain. If your brain has, for whatever reason, decided to lash out violently then it was your brain that came to that violent decision. Input + past experiences = output. The more thought you put into something the more past experience you can apply and change the outcome, but even without thinking it is still you. I don't know how to make this any clearer.

So you said it.

I don't say it's YOU who does the thing.

I say YOU do it automatically without thinking about it.

Your Brain is just part of your body.

Sometimes it decides and you don't even recognize it. In most cases that's what the brain should do.

The brain has to do it's job, like any other part of your body.

According to "Input+past experience=output" it's exactly what I say all the time.

The past experience can't be changed.

If someone gives input then you get an output.

If the past experience is full of negative stuff, then the input will more likely lead to a negative result.

Of course it's still YOU but YOU didn't decide.

The brain just acts as it has to.

And that's what I say all the time.

Thanks for making it clear to everyone.

 

[_wb_]

If we're going to get philosophical about free will and all that, I can recommend the following article (still reading it at the moment, but interesting so far): http://arxiv.org/abs/1306.0159

By the way, I agree with Wizardstan/Moxie and also with EvilDragon/Askarus: people who write such nasty emails or comments are assholes, and Craig is also an asshole for not giving more information, which probably contributed to the nasty-email-writing assholes behaving as assholes.

I don't really understand why people get so upset about something like this. These are "first-world problems", and this reminds me a lot of those spoiled kids who get angry at christmas because they get a white iphone instead of a black one (or was it the other way around). If you want to buy something and get it instantly, go to a shopping mall. Don't make Kickstarter pledges on a project by Craig. And learn how to interpret the words of salesmen like Craig, especially when it's about timing.

 

[Asiyura]

I stand my point : 

1. You're irritated by a situation.
2. You write a mail filled with hateful words with a company as receiver.  - At that point you have consciously made a choice, and that is sending a hate mail to a company made of various people, not the directly to the decision maker.
3. You send the hate mail. - You had all the time needed in the universe to think about what you were doing between the moment you've written your mail and the moment you clicked the send button. You could perfectly delete the mail or erase it's content and write something humanly acceptable instead of injuries (or even incitation to suicide) to another human being.

The way you're saying things is like saying soldiers aren't responsible of their acts. They are, that's why they can object an order. If they do dreadful acts (killing civilians, …) under orders, they're still legally responsible for what they've done.

 

[Askarus]

people who write such nasty emails or comments are assholes

Sorry, no.

Always check the situation.

Never judge peoples behavior without knowing the situation.

 

[vcoleiro1]

This thread is about ripe for closure, I don't see anything that can be added other than fights amongst members.

 

[_wb_]

people who write such nasty emails or comments are assholes

Sorry, no.

Always check the situation.

Never judge peoples behavior without knowing the situation.

I know enough about the situation to judge that behavior consisting of calling someone a whore who should commit suicide, is the behavior of an asshole.

That is not an acceptable way to express your anger, no matter what the context is. It is certainly not an acceptable way to express anger about something as insignificant as delays in the delivery of a kickstarter project. And especially not if the person targeted is not even the one responsible for those delays.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

People make irrational, not well thought out decisions and if they could go back in time and make the choice again perhaps they would change their decision. We are responsible for our actions unless deemed by the state legally insane. However to error is to be human. We don't always say and do the right thing...this is human nature.

What I also say is that Craig is responsible for all of this disgusting behavior because he has so poorly managed this company. These types of responses by the customer is to be expected when money/product owed is involved.

Yes he did not put a gun to their heads to vent or act negatively. But these types of responses are to be expected when a vested owner has lost control of his/her company....and those working unfortunately must accept the brunt of the anger or resign. It is not the employee's fault directly but to work for a immoral,unethical company but one must be culpable if they have the knowledge of foul play.

The owner active or inactive is totally responsible for all feedback good or bad.

Maybe the moral of the story here is don't bite off more jerky than you can chew 

Thought I was done.

 

[WizardStan]

The owner active or inactive is totally responsible for all feedback good or bad.

If your boss gives you a hard time and and one day you simply have had enough and beat him up is the boss responsible for your actions? "He was always yelling at me, I had to beat him up".That's some pretty bad feedback, but I guess the boss is responsible for that since he's the instigator of the emotions, eh?

OR we can call bullshit what it is and that the guy made his own decision to assault the boss. Just because something is expected doesn't mean it should be excused. Stop making excuses for the poor decisions of other people, call them out on it and maybe, just maybe, the day may come when it isn't expected, a day far into the future where writing violent and deplorable emails are so socially unacceptable that people do in fact stop to think about what they're about to send before sending it, and the people that do send them out recognize the mistake they've made and apologize for getting caught up in the moment and acting like an asshole. Wouldn't that be nice, people not being assholes to each other? Not being excused from being an asshole because someone else was an asshole to them first? I think it would be nice.

edit: and just in case there was ever any doubt, I'm not just talking about sending emails here, I'm talking about all bad behavior that people find excuses for. It's still customary to ask a woman who was just raped what she was wearing, suggesting that she is somehow responsible for the actions of her attacker. You walk through a bad neighborhood and get mugged and people say "well what did you expect?": I expect the exact same kind of treatment as if I walked through a good neighborhood and got mugged, I expect the rapist to be captured and punished in the same way regardless of whether the woman was wearing a full body or walking along the street naked, because bad behavior is bad behavior no matter where or why it happens or how common it is.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

The owner active or inactive is totally responsible for all feedback good or bad.

If your boss gives you a hard time and and one day you simply have had enough and beat him up is the boss responsible for your actions? "He was always yelling at me, I had to beat him up".
That's some pretty bad feedback, but I guess the boss is responsible for that since he's the instigator of the emotions, eh?


OR we can call bullshit what it is and that the guy made his own decision to assault the boss. Just because something is expected doesn't mean it should be excused. Stop making excuses for the poor decisions of other people, call them out on it and maybe, just maybe, the day may come when it isn't expected, a day far into the future where writing violent and deplorable emails are so socially unacceptable that people do in fact stop to think about what they're about to send before sending it, and the people that do send them out recognize the mistake they've made and apologize for getting caught up in the moment and acting like an asshole. Wouldn't that be nice, people not being assholes to each other? Not being excused from being an asshole because someone else was an asshole to them first? I think it would be nice.


edit: and just in case there was ever any doubt, I'm not just talking about sending emails here, I'm talking about all bad behavior that people find excuses for. It's still customary to ask a woman who was just raped what she was wearing, suggesting that she is somehow responsible for the actions of her attacker. You walk through a bad neighborhood and get mugged and people say "well what did you expect?": I expect the exact same kind of treatment as if I walked through a good neighborhood and got mugged, I expect the rapist to be captured and punished in the same way regardless of whether the woman was wearing a full body or walking along the street naked, because bad behavior is bad behavior no matter where or why it happens or how common it is.

Yes it would be nice if everyone acted civilly and used the 15% of their brain 100% of the time..in a perfect world yes. The anger examples you cite here are a bit extreme though this behavior happens unfortunately. This ..thank St. Francis.. has not reached that extreme point. People are fallible creatures indeed. Sometimes I wonder if we are the most intelligent. It seems man needs nature but nature does not need man...oh so I rant.

What I am trying to convey is that when MONEY is involved and a product is promised this nasty behavior is to be expected...sad but true. I do not condone it but rather see it as a fact of life. You reap what you sow. I think Craig well deserves any nasty behavior because he himself is exhibiting the same. Again I do think he is directly responsible for this guttersnipe. I wish the world could be devoid of this type of behavior but I do not think it ever will. This is why the prisons are so overcrowded.

I really believe this and cannot fathom any other scenario. :wacko:  Can we please agree to disagree?

 

[WizardStan]

What I am trying to convey is that when MONEY is involved and a product is promised this nasty behavior is to be expected...sad but true. I do not condone it but rather see it as a fact of life. You reap what you sow. I think Craig well deserves any nasty behavior because he himself is exhibiting the same. Again I do think he is directly responsible for this guttersnipe.

So if you steal $300 from me and I come to your house and murder your family you are directly responsible for that? Money was involved, you should have expected me to get angry for stealing my money.

 

[Asiyura]

^what he said and :

I think Craig well deserves any nasty behavior because he himself is exhibiting the same.

Except that it wasn't Craig that was targeted by the suicide incitation and the insults, but Deb who just happen to work for Craig… (well, not anymore)

 

[WizardStan]

Except that it wasn't Craig that was targeted by the suicide incitation and the insults, but Deb who just happen to work for Craig… (well, not anymore)

Even if it was Craig that was the target I still wouldn't say he was directly responsible for the actions of the people sending the emails. I would agree to him being indirectly responsible but I still maintain that the people sending the emails are responsible for their own actions. Angry or not, they hit the send button, and if you excuse the behavior with "that's just the way it is" then it won't change, nothing will get better.

 

[CocoCreekFisherman]

^what he said and :

I think Craig well deserves any nasty behavior because he himself is exhibiting the same.

Except that it wasn't Craig that was targeted by the suicide incitation and the insults, but Deb who just happen to work for Craig… (well, not anymore)

Right..agree^^ but as I mentioned previously...in my opinion..if you work for a shady,unethical company and are aware of it's practices then as an employee you are as guilty as the owner if you let it continue.. I respect the fact that she did resign.

Except that it wasn't Craig that was targeted by the suicide incitation and the insults, but Deb who just happen to work for Craig… (well, not anymore)

Even if it was Craig that was the target I still wouldn't say he was directly responsible for the actions of the people sending the emails. I would agree to him being indirectly responsible but I still maintain that the people sending the emails are responsible for their own actions. Angry or not, they hit the send button, and if you excuse the behavior with "that's just the way it is" then it won't change, nothing will get better.

But it is that way at this point in our world....it is deplorable but it is rampant. Maybe something or someone [Jesus] the Messiah will arrive and set it all straight again??!! Maybe UFO'S will return? SOMETHING please...I agree.

This business situation we are talking about happens on a much much more grandiose scale then we are discussing here. It happens 1000's of times a day all over the world. Again sad but true and a dark side of humanity. Typically the owner/owners are 100% accounted for with this type of scamming or what have you. Wether the law intervenes or a customer takes action it occurs all the time in business.

Not everybody clearly thinks before they act especially when they feel threatened $$$$!! They think but impulsively!! Some will as yourself act proper and I applaud that if you really are of that clothe. Not that you need or seek my approval but it is quite commendable  all the same and more folks should follow that example..in a perfect world maybe .

The old saying...don't act like a impatient virgin. might apply here.

 

[Asiyura]

You know, at first Craig wasn't shady etc.

And she could have needed that job to… you know… eat, sleep with a roof over her head, buy clothes to keep warm…

As I said, I worked in a call-center for an internet provider, in Belgium they're all shady and unethical.

But I had no other choice, I had to get money to live.

So, did I deserve to get insulted and shouted at everyday by customers? I don't think so…