Covid-19 (Coronavirus) - Please stay safe, y'all


ible

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Especially since his behaviour changed drastically...
correlation does not equal causation. autism doesn't tend to show itself until later anyway (when vaccines are taken). some kids get autism without getting vaccines. then their families get pushed out of their antivax support community, being told they did something else wrong. a "no true Scotsman" scenario all over again.

I admit that I went a bit off-topic with that post. Sorry for that. I definitely should not have mentioned many of those things.

Vaccines however are ontopic because there are going to be COVID-19 vaccines and that's a big COVID-19 related deal.
no qualms there (note it wasn't mentioned in my list). but still your anti vaxxer position won't help others, and i'm not going to let others think your position is the norm here.

It was not. There's nothing demeaning about breastfeeding. It's natural, healthy for the baby, and allows the mother to show her love for the baby and bond with the baby. I'm glad for women who have the privilege to be able to breastfeed their babies and I'm also glad for the babies who receive such care. I'm also not blaming mothers who lack the ability to breastfeed their babies. I just asked a question and you're reading way too much in it.
your original post was not taken positively by my spouse, who is a woman. don't try to make it sound like roses now when you were using flippant words and objectifying women/motherhood. being a parent, and being a human, is a beautiful thing, and imperfections are a part of that.
 

TeDaDeS

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Well, often those corporations fund the science, and if you produce non-expected results, you are out, and your conclusions send to /dev/null.
Example: the 16 studies that smoking was not detrimental to health. (and it isn't, really; it's the fertilizer they use on tobaccoplants that produces the polonium)
Well, that's true. But what I mean is that scientific method works both ways. So you can use it for good or for bad. But the method itself is good way to research things.
That research gets corrupted by money is a shame, but this kind of corruption happens in many different fields these days.
One of the weapons against this is science itself. You can do research and proof corruption is happening and (hopefully) fix it.
Obviously you will run into media censorship, police and harassment. But if you have an online platform first you can at least release the knowledge into the wild first.

With Covid-19 I think we see that technology and research can really help. But also it spread really fast due to easy and fast world-wide travel.
I don't feel like religion will solve issues like Covid-19 for us, you might accept it easier but it won't stop the virus itself.
So even if some people think science is bad and should be stopped, I would rather arm people with knowledge and tools to battle bad-actors then keep them in the dark.
That would mean publicly funded research that is open for everyone, including education like universities and hospitals.
 

FBnil

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but it won't stop the virus itself.
Indeed. Pray, but keep rowing towards the shore.

That would mean publicly funded research that is open for everyone, including education like universities and hospitals.
Ok, but the trend now is that there is a battle to get funded, and you get funded only if you do certain research, while other, also important research is struggling. So it might help in some cases (research that is not lucrative, but important in the eyes of the public), but not in others... like coronavirus research, 2 years ago. I wouldn't have given it any importance, just another RNA strand. While other research would get overfunded, if the public was consulted.

You know what scares me? Multi resistant bacterias.
 

λ the β-Redex Reducer

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correlation does not equal causation. autism doesn't tend to show itself until later anyway (when vaccines are taken). some kids get autism without getting vaccines. then their families get pushed out of their antivax support community, being told they did something else wrong. a "no true Scotsman" scenario all over again.
Nope, again it's just a false NTS accusation, For the No True Scotsman I would need to make an universal statement. I would need to say that ALL Scotsmen are X. But I said that SOME cases of autism are caused by vaccines. Specifically, my nephew's was. I never said anything about ALL cases of autism.

For the NTS fallacy our conversaion would need to go like this
Me: ALL cases of autism are due to vaccins
You: I know of cases of autism that are not due to vaccines
Me: Those are not real cases of autism

But instead it goes like this:
Me: SOME cases of autism are due to vaccines
You: I know of cases of autism that are not due to vaccines
Me: That may be true.

And if you say that a disease cannot have multiple different causes then consider cancer. Smoking causes cancer yet many people get cancer without having ever smoked. Or is cancer not a real disease?

your original post was not taken positively by my spouse, who is a woman. don't try to make it sound like roses now when you were using flippant words and objectifying women/motherhood. being a parent, and being a human, is a beautiful thing, and imperfections are a part of that.
If you think that breastfeeding objectifies women, then that's on you. I think that breastfeeding does not objectify women and I never stated otherwise.

As for using the word "tits", it's just a short informal synonym for "breasts". I'm willing to avoid it for you if you find the word offensive but that does not change the fact that nothing was meant with it besides the actual definition of the word. If you're trying to read my entire philosophy on women, motherhood, humanity, and parenthood from that one single use of "tits" then stop it.
 

ible

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Nope, again it's just a false NTS accusation, For the No True Scotsman I would need to make an universal statement. I would need to say that ALL Scotsmen are X. But I said that SOME cases of autism are caused by vaccines. Specifically, my nephew's was. I never said anything about ALL cases of autism.
i'm not referring to your correlation-equals-causation argument here. i'm referring to the fact that some anti-vaxxer communities have pushed out families who end up having autistic children, even if they haven't gotten vaccinated at all. say parents A have child B, who gets autism despite not being vaccinated. community C, to which A and B thought they belonged, since they all didn't vaccinate their children together, now sees the family A and B as outcasts, and blame them for doing *other* things that brought autism to child B. family A+B didn't live naturally enough. it's classic cult mentality; push out people that break your ideal worldview. that's something besides the vaccine -> autism argument.

as for the vaccine causes autism argument, that's completely unfounded, retracted, and supported by no peer-reviewed studies. it's not your brother/sister's fault for vaccinating their child. that's a terrible blame to put on somebody. but that's just the anti-vaxxer way: make everyone else seem unhealthy for their non-natural life choices. but when something comes around when you'll need the science and modern health for, you'll appreciate it being there for you. at what point will your community cast you out, and shun you, for not having lived an ideal, natural life? things to think about before going all-in on a community like that.

And if you say that a disease cannot have multiple different causes then consider cancer. Smoking causes cancer yet many people get cancer without having ever smoked. Or is cancer not a real disease?
yep, and it's pretty clear that smoking causes lung disease. that's supported by evidence. vaccinations do not cause autism; that's supported by no evidence. if you want to debate this on a retro-handheld/programming forum, i think you're a bit crazy. if you think you're better than the scientists/health people who work on this stuff, i'd recommend seeing a therapist.

If you think that breastfeeding objectifies women, then that's on you. I think that breastfeeding does not objectify women and I never stated otherwise.

As for using the word "tits", it's just a short informal synonym for "breasts". I'm willing to avoid it for you if you find the word offensive but that does not change the fact that nothing was meant with it besides the actual definition of the word. If you're trying to read my entire philosophy on women, motherhood, humanity, and parenthood from that one single use of "tits" then stop it.
breasts is the natural word to use if you're wanting to start a respectful dialogue on women, motherhood, and humanity. let's go back and put things in context...

Why would anyone buy baby formula? Women have the best baby formula that they can get coming out of their tits for free whenever they get a baby.
let's agree that that's pretty flippant. and you're trying to make people feel bad if they have to buy baby formula (see my other post, where that actually has killed babies before). at any rate, this is not a respectful tone for a serious conversation, and if you aren't willing to run that statement by any women that you know IRL, unless you enjoy getting slapped upside the head, it's not appropriate to use here either. the first thing that went through my wife's head when she read this was "F this guy" (and i tried to introduce you very neutrally).

i'm not perfect, and i don't always say things perfectly either. but trying to turn this around as if it's my fault for being offended, that's rude.
 

λ the β-Redex Reducer

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it's not your brother/sister's fault for vaccinating their child. that's a terrible blame to put on somebody. but that's just the anti-vaxxer way: make everyone else seem unhealthy for their non-natural life choices.
You really want to make me seem like a bad person and you keep putting words in mouth in attempt to do so. Where did I ever blame my nephew's parents? I blamed the vaccine, not the parents. And in fact they themselves think that the vaccine caused it and have become anti-vaxxers since the incident (without ever having talked with me about vaccines).

i'm not perfect, and i don't always say things perfectly either. but trying to turn this around as if it's my fault for being offended, that's rude.
It's not your fault for being offended at all, you being offended is just you coming from another culture than me. If that was your only accusation then I would have apologised and moved on. I agree that I should have been more conservative so I'm willing to take the blame for that.
But what is your fault is all those horrible false accusations of me objectifying women, trying to make mothers feel bad for not breastfeeding, and driving women into suicide; all based on nothing but me using the word "tits" once. And when I explicitly stated my views on those things for the first time in order to correct your false assumptions you insisted that I must be lying because anyone who has said "tits" must be a woman hating murderer. Do you really not see how nasty and unfounded those accusations are?
 

FBnil

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Manifestation in Netherlands against the draconian measures (take away freedom, for example, the right for the police to warantlessly enter your home to see if you keep the 1.5 meter distance inside your home)
These rules was going to get active July 1st, but are delayed (they still will get active, they always do)


First they said that football supporters were driven to the demonstration place and that is the reason it escalated, but we just see police dispersing normal peaceful people, old people, hitting old ladies with a stoma, or with a dog. And it's hard, that the poliece is not your friend anymore in NL (it was). Now, normally, against young people, sure. But these are older people that need to be handled more carefully (and here, with the BLM police did a step back, but here they just hit that old lady full force with the watergun)

Divide and Conquer: BLM demonstration was approved, this one was not. As it is, it sends a precedent to not allow more manifestations. So our government is kinda pro Antifa (goes with the agenda) and kinda anti population (goes against the agenda)... (edit: add back nuance to that statement, as it is just one incident yet)
 
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FBnil

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as for the vaccine causes autism argument, that's completely unfounded, retracted, and supported by no peer-reviewed studies.
I beg to differ, I've read the study a few years ago. And nobody wants to peer review it because they never will get funded again.
It studied 3 types, which initially, in the vaccine, had different sized nanoparticles, that accreted. So the one with biggest initial size, did not grow as much as the one with the smallest size. If at that moment in time, the kid has an inflammation in the head (due to any cause) then those particles got stuck there, and grew, and stayed there. The paper then stated that this might be the cause.



This seems to work on duckduckgo.com as well.
wow... this is... no way.... no freaking way.... > 10 numbers now, and yes....
 
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TeDaDeS

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Ok, but the trend now is that there is a battle to get funded, and you get funded only if you do certain research, while other, also important research is struggling. So it might help in some cases (research that is not lucrative, but important in the eyes of the public), but not in others... like coronavirus research, 2 years ago. I wouldn't have given it any importance, just another RNA strand. While other research would get overfunded, if the public was consulted.
That's why research needs public funding and shouldn't rely on companies to directly fund.
However all money is useful, so why not allow companies to donate directly? And that small step made companies steer the research direction and censor results they don't want.
So research into free and easy public available solutions are neglected and more expensive medicine can get you a lucrative grand.
On top of that you create a culture were people attack other employees of the university, as this way of working generates income and provides job security.

Having public research would help against the biased or censored results.
With all systems, someone will find a way to exploit it. The system can be made in a manner to prevent this from happening, usually openness is a first step.

First they said that football supporters were driven to the demonstration place and that is the reason it escalated, but we just see police dispersing normal peaceful people, old people, hitting old ladies with a stoma, or with a dog. And it's hard, that the police is not your friend anymore in NL (it was). Now, normally, against young people, sure. But these are older people that need to be handled more carefully (and here, with the BLM police did a step back, but here they just hit that old lady full force with the watergun)
If you look what these people stand for, everyone protesting, it's usually generic and sounds more like an ideology then it's back by real evidence. Defending freedom, against 5G and forced inoculations are things that should be easily proven if based on fact. Usually the protestors are ill informed, but agree with the generic concept which probably every Dutch person would if true. I feel like I'm a quite open person for new views, but until now all groups protesting have weak arguments usually based on personal experience or hearsay, not empirical evidence.

The Netherlands has laws and these rules apply to everyone. If others have to request permission these protestors should do that to. Police only see people that don't comply, they don't discriminate based on age or having a pet.
Also sounds like they were treated nicely until hooligans began making a ruckus.

I was thought people are people. You can dislike a person but not a group of people just bases on some trivial attribute like looks or preferences, cause that's racism. Not to mention the stigma on discrimination, nobody is the same. People demonstrating appear to fight racism by doing the opposite. People fighting for freedom by breaking the law making it so that new laws need to be made to force them to listen. Mix these protestors with motivated ideological poorly informed online mobs and you have the things you see today.

I beg to differ, I've read the study a few years ago. And nobody wants to peer review it because they never will get funded again.
You should never stop people that are going to prove you are right. Don't understand why they don't fund research, these believes can be very harmful if false but are also harmful if proven to be true.
 

ible

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You really want to make me seem like a bad person
yes, being antivax is bad, as it directly hurts people who then become vaccine hesitant. turning more conversations as a platform for your anti-science is also bad. these aren't the forums for these sorts of debates.

It's not your fault for being offended at all, you being offended is just you coming from another culture than me. If that was your only accusation then I would have apologised and moved on. I agree that I should have been more conservative so I'm willing to take the blame for that.
But what is your fault is all those horrible false accusations of me objectifying women, trying to make mothers feel bad for not breastfeeding, and driving women into suicide; all based on nothing but me using the word "tits" once. And when I explicitly stated my views on those things for the first time in order to correct your false assumptions you insisted that I must be lying because anyone who has said "tits" must be a woman hating murderer. Do you really not see how nasty and unfounded those accusations are?
if you read my article, it was the baby who died, not the mother. due to dehydration/starvation from not getting enough food at the breast. but yes, your words were offensive to anyone who has used formula, derogatory towards women, and full of hubris in thinking you know what's best for everyone. i'm gonna keep calling you out on that, because that isn't right.
 

λ the β-Redex Reducer

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being antivax is bad, as it directly hurts people
My uncle and aunt became anti-vax because their son suddenly became mentally handicapped after a vaccine. Do you have any idea what it's like to have your healthy child become autistic in one single day? Do you have any empathy at all? Their careless life became a sequence of misery on that one single day. They are not bad people. Whether you agree with them or not, they're doing their best and they are not bad. They're trying to protect their son and for that you already called them cultists, and now you're saying they're bad and hurting people.

It seems like I'm talking to a wall. The more I call you out on your BS the more offensive and insensitive that you get. Have fun reading industry funded science and pretending that parents who's kids became autistic in one single day are just evil cultists out there to hurt people.
 

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It's healthy to have an argument and learn something new. There is no reason to harm each other over it.

Kids are a precious thing, all (good) parents want to protect their kids from harm. Good thing that Covid-19 doesn't appear to be effecting young people as much as very old ones.

My uncle and aunt became anti-vax because their son suddenly became mentally handicapped after a vaccine.
I thought autism was a development disorder and not a mental handicap, something you always had an don't catch like a flu.
Also I read somewhere that some autistic people thought they are better off then regular people.
And parents usually project their expectations onto their kid. The kid is living it and usually accepts it faster. Studies show kids rate their own happiness higher then the parents rate the kids happiness.
Not every person is the same though and autistic kids do need an adjusted environment to function, so I can imagine the parents need to put energy into managing all of this. So in their perspective the situation might be really bad.

And as I mentioned before, research into these things might give better insight. And people learn new things each day including practices that later appear to be flawed.
But for now research doesn't show a link between the vaccine and autism, but it does show that unvaccinated kids can get measles.
Still we might not know everything but how I see it, almost everyone does it including the people who preach it's safe. So these people are also parents who want their kids to be safe, so at least they really believe it's safe.
However I might be biased on why people think vaccines are bad, as my information comes from research on why people reject vaccines, so you can always let me know what the reason is for this believe.
 

λ the β-Redex Reducer

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The problem with life is that we step into it without any experience and then we must to do many things right the first time or suffer terrible consequences. Life is like getting your first driving lesson and immediately being thrown onto the high-way. Making terrible mistakes and living the rest of your life with scars and regrets is just part of this life. If life was fair then we would first get a few practice rounds before we're being born for real. But alas. We're forced to drive onto the high-way while we're still trying to figure out where the breaks are.

But yeah, it seems like the worse your health is the more dangerous COVID-19 is to you. Seems like it's much like Common Flu in this regard. So as always it's the people that are already with one foot in the grave that are the most vulnerable.
 

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The situation in the US doesn't look good if you look at the graph. The US is big and the graph might not represent well where it is.

us_covid.PNG
 
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ible

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My uncle and aunt became anti-vax because their son suddenly became mentally handicapped after a vaccine. Do you have any idea what it's like to have your healthy child become autistic in one single day? Do you have any empathy at all? Their careless life became a sequence of misery on that one single day. They are not bad people. Whether you agree with them or not, they're doing their best and they are not bad. They're trying to protect their son and for that you already called them cultists, and now you're saying they're bad and hurting people.

It seems like I'm talking to a wall. The more I call you out on your BS the more offensive and insensitive that you get.
i don't mean to be insensitive to people who have autistic kids. i can't imagine what that would be like. but if you want people to be sensitive to you and your family, you should also try it yourself (i.e., with the tits comment, and not making it sound like everyone can do breast feeding like it's the easiest thing in the world). but yes, being anti-vax is actually proven to hurt other people. i'm not going to be overly indulgent about your position on this, because your right to swing your fists ends at my nose, and it should be the same way with the air you breathe in my direction. many terrible things can be traced back to anti-vaxxers: measles outbreaks in Minnesota, people getting measles when they didn't need to, or a lack of herd immunity, or this kid who got tetanus:

a 6-year-old boy in Oregon who cut himself playing on his family farm spent two months in hospital and almost died from a tetanus infection. “When the boy arrived at the emergency department, his muscle spasms were so severe he could not talk or open his mouth and was struggling to breathe,” said the doctor who treated him. The child’s treatment cost near $AU 1m, and the entire episode could have been prevented by a routine vaccination his parents denied him.
as a note, nobody's opinion is going to change here (that's why it feels like you're talking to a wall, and the feeling's mutual). but i don't think it's a good idea to start an anti-science movement in these boards, and let it grow. i'll become a mod to stop it, if necessary.

Have fun reading industry funded science and pretending that parents who's kids became autistic in one single day are just evil cultists out there to hurt people.
i like how you consider the motives of these health industry experts as trash, but don't give the same skepticism towards the motives of members of the antivax community. they're also peddling something, even if it's their own conviction that they want to live by. everyone's trying to make a living, and not everyone is evil on the inside. but if you want to go with that way of thinking, you should also apply it to your own community as well.
 

λ the β-Redex Reducer

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but if you want people to be sensitive to you and your family, you should also try it yourself
No, YOU should. You're the one who cannot hold up to the same standards that you measure me against. I actually let it slide the first time because even though you implied nasty things, I knew that you meant well. I knew that if you thought about it then you would not really want to insult parents like that. Too bad that you do not grant me the same advantage of doubt. Instead, you always assume that I mean only the worst. If I use "tits" because that's how we talk where I come from then you assume I do it to humiliate women (but I talk about men's parts in the same way, do I hate both genders?), if I make a general statement about women getting milk then you assume that I must blame women who do not get milk, etc. But meanwhile you imply the worst things about my family but supposedly it's OK because you meant well. Shall I act like you did towards me?
i don't mean to be insensitive to people who have autistic kids. i can't imagine what that would be like.
"your original post was not taken positively by my family, who is anti-vax. don't try to make it sound like roses now when you were implying they were bad cultists. being a parent, and being a human, is a beautiful thing, and tough decisions are a part of that."

See what I mean? It seems that because I disagree with you, you want to believe that I'm evil and thus you're trying to make the evidence fit your beliefs. But if you assume that I said something because I held certain unstated beliefs, and then I explicitly contradict your assumptions, then you should just accept that. Just like you want others to accept that you did not really mean to imply that family with autistic kids (which make up a large part of anti-vax camp) are evil cultists for trying to protect their kids.

i like how you consider the motives of these health industry experts as trash, but don't give the same skepticism towards the motives of members of the antivax community.
I'm actually quite sure that most people in the health industry mean well. The dentists with X-Ray, the people applying vaccines, etc, most of them genuinely want to help; just as is the case with the anti-vax community. The corruption of the medical industry is mostly confined to the top where the power lies and I only think that because I've thoroughly researched it.

they're also peddling something, even if it's their own conviction that they want to live by. everyone's trying to make a living,
Actually, most people in the debate make no money from whatever they're pebbling in the vaccine debate. The only ones who stand to make big money from their side winning are the leaders of the pro-vaccine movement.


As for the vaccine debate, I'm done. I could cherry pick stories of people getting harmed by vaccines. Nothing is going to change it seems. Both sides have their studies to pick from and both sides have their anecdotes. Granted, the stories of the side with the most money to buy propaganda are easier to find.
 
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TeDaDeS

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As for the vaccine debate, I'm done. I could cherry pick stories of people getting harmed by vaccines. Or I could mention my dog becoming sick after her vaccine, and then vet saying it was not due to the vaccine but due to contact with other dogs despite the fact that my dog never had contact with other dogs at all; but nothing is going to change it seems. Both sides have their studies to pick from and both sides have their anecdotes. Granted, the stories of the side with the most money to buy propaganda are easier to find.
I'm pretty sure things like this happen, and if so it's hard to prove it's caused by a 'safe' product. The problem is that the other 99.99% of the people don't encounter this issue.
Related to Covid-19: I think things like this will happen a lot with a new -not yet fully tested- vaccines.
 
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