Blender On The Pandora

[fusion_power]

I use Blender on my PC and I would like to see a "lite" Version onto the Pandora for quick 3D Ideas and sketches. Of course the crappy Blender GUI MUST be changed COMPLETELY to match to the Pandora. 800x480 is not to small for a 3D Editor, I usualy use only ONE 3D Window on PC and turn it to the viewpoint I need. I don't like it to have Windows for each side of view.
Blender is a good Program with a incedible user and beginner unfriendly Interface. You just can't use it without Training or Tutorials and this shouldn't be.
For Pandora-Usage the Interface has to be stripped radicaly so you have the most possible Space onto the Screen.

Here is where that magical word comes into play again.....

-----Optimization-------

This is the number one problem with peoples perceptions on here, with porting software to the Pandora. It's kinda common (but not so common) sense actually. All ports of something is optimized to get it to work on something. Therefore it should be common knowledge that of course the size won't work for it. The point of a port is to be able to utilize as much of the same functions and features, as possible on a completely different platform; it's almost never aesthetically.

Hope I didn't sound like an ass or anything, just see BenT's point and agree with his thoughts about it.

Many Coders these days don't even know the meaning of the word "Optimization" In times with ultra fast PC's and Hyper-Mega Graphic Cards not even big Companies optimize their products to the Hardware. If it runs to slow, they expect that the Users buy a even faster PC. I hope this "trend" will end some day.

 

[ledro]

I'm actually a longtime user of blender. I remember using blender on an (even for that time) old 32mb pentium 100mhz PC with no 3d accelarated graphics card. It worked fine for low poly graphics for game models.
Blender is very keyboard oriented. So does not rely that much on graphical interface. Also the interface is very scalable.
Using the double analog joystick would provide a interesting way of 3d editing.
Also Blender is very much community driven, just like the pandora project.

I think the pandora would be excellently suited for some lowpoly modelling in the train (and impressing people with your craftmanship).

For me it would be an excellent reason to buy pandora.

Oh, And now that I think of it... blender has also functionality (that I think most blender users don't know of) to use special mouse/pen strokes for the most basic editing function, that would be excellent for the touchscreen.

 

[PoisonedV]

nobody that's serious about 3d modelling/animation will want to use their pandora for the task... so i see blender as major overkill (with a lot of work to port). However, a simple little "3d sketch" sort of program i can see being fun for quite a few people.

Blender is not for people that just want a quick play around in 3d, but i can see its exactly these people who will want to do 3d modelling on their pandora!

Excellent post, my thoughts exactly. Why not something less full featured, stuff like milkshape or anim8r, I believe, for example.

 

[atomicthumbs]

Excellent post, my thoughts exactly. Why not something less full featured, stuff like milkshape or anim8r, I believe, for example.

Personally, I prefer KPOVModeler as it's the only one I can figure out how to operate.

 

[mrsnature]

nobody that's serious about 3d modelling/animation will want to use their pandora for the task... so i see blender as major overkill (with a lot of work to port). However, a simple little "3d sketch" sort of program i can see being fun for quite a few people.

Blender is not for people that just want a quick play around in 3d, but i can see its exactly these people who will want to do 3d modelling on their pandora!

Excellent post, my thoughts exactly. Why not something less full featured, stuff like milkshape or anim8r, I believe, for example.



Thank you :rolleyes: Exactly though. Most of the people here saying they want blender, but simpler. Well, that's NOT blender.

On a side note, as for being difficult to use... i'm a maya man myself, but as with most programs intended for professional use, the initial learning curve is steep, but the pay off is there when you have become experienced and the UI saves you hours of time. So again, a simple 3d modeller with an easy to use interface for beginners is NOT blender.

rant over

 

[BenTolputt]

QUOTE
Why not something less full featured, stuff like milkshape or anim8r


Because Blender is open source & runs on Linux. Milkshape & anim8or are both closed source & windows only. At least the guy who suggested Wings 3D brought up an open-source application (pity Erlang is such a hefty application to port!).

"Serious" Users & Blender:
OK, I kinda have to step in here on this because it's a meme that keeps circling without actually touching reality for a second.

Does anyone really think that ANY art application ported to the Pandora is going to be used "seriously". So-called "serious" artists wanting a portable solution are much more likely to pick up a cheap laptop with wacom tablet or a "tablet pc". That and they're more likely to use Photoshop, Maya, 3D Studio, or the like then Blender (like Linux & Windows, this is a fact whether open-source advocates like it or not)

Combine this meme that because "serious" users will not user Blender on the Pandora, we should port something less capable. This guarantees that serious users will NEVER use it, because we simply give them a toy interface...

Blender Reasoning
The reasons I chose Blender as the target application to convert are as follows:

• Open Source: This goes without saying. No source, no port.
• Multi-Platform: Blender is already multi-platform (Windows, Mac, Linux, FreeBSD, etc) with support for multiple chipsets. As such, the code is already setup for porting making the conversion MUCH easier.
• Community Support: Blender has a strong community based around developing & using the application on multiple platforms. The idea of adding a platform (with a geeky "cool factor") would excite a decent subset of them and provide both access to key developers and/or sell some more Pandora's.
• UI Refactor: Blender is currently undertaking a refactor to enable the UI to be altered to the whims (within reason) of the user. Given the extra controls available on the Pandora - this is an interesting fit.
• Scale Down vs Recode: Blender has a tonne of features, all of which can be hidden/enabled through a customised user interface. As such, one could start with basic modelling, then add in features as they are converted/tested through changes to the UI.
  
  I would much rather "enable" something in a user interface then have to recode it or implement it from scratch to get the same functionality. Starting from less capable applications means either that or leaving it as a "toy only" application. The DS is designed as an "entertainment unit" alone, thing is - they didn't limit all the applications on it to simple toys. As such, we see accomplished concept artists actually using it for some damn cool work.
• Familiarity: A personal one - I'm familiar with Blender. I can't stand some of the user interface decisions (hence my excitement over the upcoming refactor), but I know the code well enough to hack and have used it for some advanced work. With some work, I think it would make an awesome addition to the Pandora.

I'm also willing to put my oney where my mouth is. Given the lack of activity on the other project I tried motivating for the Pandora - I'm looking into how I can devote enough time & resources to this port.

--BenT

 

[PoisonedV]

QUOTE
Why not something less full featured, stuff like milkshape or anim8r

Because Blender is open source & runs on Linux. Milkshape & anim8or are both closed source & windows only. At least the guy who suggested Wings 3D brought up an open-source application (pity Erlang is such a hefty application to port!).

Yes, I know that goddamnit, I'm not an idiot, don't patronize me. I was just referring to them because they are both easier applications for quick models and a easy learning curve.

 

[BenTolputt]

QUOTE
I'm not an idiot, don't patronize me

Apologies if this is how it came across. Such was not my intention. You mentioned two proprietary applications - I was unaware you meant something else...

To make things clearer in the choice of open source "modelling" applications we have:

• Blender: Which I am advocating due to reasons outlined in my previous post. Pretty self-contained in the dependencies to get the basic GUI & functionality (the only "major" library being SDL which we know is already being ported).
• Wings 3D: Of which I am a BIG fan (& user), but whilst I know & use Erlang in server projects, I am not savvy enough to port the language to new (low-end) hardware. Even if I was, I'd then have to port eSDL before I could even get started on porting Wings itself.
• Art of Illusion: Not as advanced as Blender by any means, but not really a "simple" application either. Big portage problem though is that it is written in Java, requiring a Java & Java3D port before one could start porting the app itself.
• K-3D: Another simpler, but not "simple" modeller, which funnily enough given the name requires GTK2 for compilation. I'm not aware of a GTK2 porting effort, and am not interested in porting myself (WAY too large an effort I think for my part-time contribution time).
• Moonlight|3D: Another Java/Java3D effort, but it is subpar any of the others mentioned above so not really worht the effor t(even if Java/Java3D were already ported).

I might have missed one or two, but these are the ones I know about (and given I try to use open source wherever I can in my art work, I think I covered the major bases).

With these options, it would be SIMPLER to port Blender than the others on the list.

Simple Blender is not Blender meme
This is an interesting one. Remember the fact that Blender is currently refactoring the code in order to allow people customise their UI's to what they want. Does that mean if I customise Blender's UI (through the options explicitly added for this purpose) to make it "simpler" it is no longer Blender? This (to me) is like stating that changing the hot-keys, removing the shelves, and re-organizing the menu trees in a Maya installation (all possible to the end-user) makes the application no longer "Maya".

With the upcoming UI refactor, Blender is becoming a "platform" on which different interfaces can expose the same functionality (at least that is the dream/plan). Making a simpler UI to access the same underlying code and then saying it's not Blender would be (to me) like using the Ubuntu GUI (rather than command line) then saying it's not Linux.

That said, I've realised that getting broad consensus for projects is not necessary and so, given the free time, I'm doing it anyway. I await the developer tools and pre-orders with anticipation. I started this thread to see what others though, but have since realised that regardless - it sounds like a good project to me

--BenT

 

[chad78]

I, for one, would like to be the first to welcome our unablely slow and pointless port overlords.

 

[TaG]

I've realised that getting broad consensus for projects is not necessary and so, given the free time, I'm doing it anyway. I await the developer tools and pre-orders with anticipation. .... it sounds like a good project to me

Nice one and good luck. Keep us all posted.

 

[laurens]

What about just porting over the game-engine part, so that 3D games can be made with relative ease on the PC/MAC/Linux, and 'exported' to the Pandora game-runtime?

 

[fusion_power]

What about just porting over the game-engine part, so that 3D games can be made with relative ease on the PC/MAC/Linux, and 'exported' to the Pandora game-runtime?

The Blender "game engine" doesn't even have real lightning, or Shaders or Effects...I'm sure there are more useful components in Blender than these more than basic "game engine"

 

[qwerty15]

And it's slow, even on a decent computer.

 

[mrsnature]

Simple Blender is not Blender meme

My point was, IMO, the only people likely to use a 3d modelling app on the pandora, will not be using the vast majority of features that blender has on offer. Of course, this functionality can be hidden, i was just assuming that with the extensive feature set Blender offers, it would be more work to port successfully.

If, as you say, that Blender is the easiest option to port despite this, then my assumption is wrong. However, i would still assume that overall performance would be reduced by the amount of features that would never be used, but again, I may be wrong.
QUOTE

Combine this meme that because "serious" users will not user Blender on the Pandora, we should port something less capable. This guarantees that serious users will NEVER use it, because we simply give them a toy interface...


Of course, if the extra features come at no expense, then why not. But honestly (and it sounds like you have some experience with 3d modelling) it can't beleive it would be an enjoyable experience trying to model on such a small device, except for a bit of playing around.

Also as far as all these features go, unfortunatly i'm pretty sure that the specs of the pandora (cpu, memory) will not be anywhere near cut out for the task (imagine rendering anything interesting? )
QUOTE

That and they're more likely to use Photoshop, Maya, 3D Studio, or the like then Blender (like Linux & Windows, this is a fact whether open-source advocates like it or not)


it's worth mentioning that nearly every film special effects/animation department primarily use Linux.

Despite everything I said, if somebody WAS willing to go to the trouble of porting Blender, and was successful, then it would be great to play around with.
Edit:
QUOTE

I've realised that getting broad consensus for projects is not necessary and so, given the free time, I'm doing it anyway. I await the developer tools and pre-orders with anticipation. .... it sounds like a good project to me

Good on you, and good luck. Seriously.

 

[Nonis]

I, for one, would like to be the first to welcome our unablely slow and pointless port overlords.

The n64 emulator on the PSP is extremely slow, yet people seem to enjoy having it. A lot of PSP and gp2x ports are slow. So whats the problem with this?

 

[jbr]

The point of the pandora isn't to NOT do anything. It's to do everything it's designed to do well, and then do a bunch more cool stuff that no one thought was possible. What's the point of having an argument about why someone shouldn't do something that won't effect you anyway? If someone wants to port something, read the post and then get on with your life.

 

[mrsnature]

The point of the pandora isn't to NOT do anything. It's to do everything it's designed to do well, and then do a bunch more cool stuff that no one thought was possible. What's the point of having an argument about why someone shouldn't do something that won't effect you anyway? If someone wants to port something, read the post and then get on with your life.

QUOTE

The results of my thoughts are presented below for further ridicule


QUOTE

What are your thoughts?


Sorry if it sounded like I was arguing, I was just giving my opinion, as I thought the point of this thread was

 

[BenTolputt]

mrsnature
Actually, the thread WAS for your thoughts/opinions. I had no issue with you posting such... doesn't mean I agree with all of them, but they were the types of things I was looking for.

I thrive on (genuine) opposition as it refines my thoughts on things. With nothing but agreement or (worse) apathy - I could not expand beyond my own brainstorming.

That said, you do bring up some good points. Blender (as currently interfaced) is not likely to be a winner. Hence the reason I like the timing of Pandora coming out & Blender's UI refactor, as I'll be making simplifications to the interface for Pandora use.

Also of note, compiling in features not immediately used does not necessarily slow down the application. It's not like code "weighs" anything, but more what code is executed. As such, it doesn't matter if (say) the particle simulation code is compiled in if it is never executed. So long as the code never gets run, it only weighs down the application interms of executable size... not something I am terribly worried about. Blender is not that heavy

The port needs to wait until (a.) I have the developer tools & Pandora unit to test on, and (b.) Blender has finished their UI refactoring. By then, perhaps someone else will have ported/created the mini-modeller I'd rather play with!

Until then - it's time to code other stuff

--BenT

 

[Patrick R Ludvigsen]

I enjoy making 3d models using the CAD program for my TI-84... I don't think Blender would be especially useful on the Pandora but fun!

 

[TaG]

I enjoy making 3d models using the CAD program for my TI-84... I don't think Blender would be especially useful on the Pandora but fun!

I don't think a number of apps would be especially useful on the Pandora - but there could be a helluva lot of fun! And I'm sure gonna try a lot of those apps to see whether they can be useful. Or just fun.