Back From The Front: Gp2x Vs Psp

[telengard]

<serious snippage>

ColecoVision: Columbo vs Columbo + Gp2xMess
- Both Columbo ports suffer from poor sound quality, confusing control mappings, and sync problems that resemble dropped frames.
- Columbo for PSP has a better GUI but is less stable. During one session I loaded and ran a game, then returned to the GUI, reloaded the same game, and the emulator locked up. Hard reset time.
- GP2XMess includes first-rate ColecoVision emulation. It's only lacking virtual numpad support and real-time save/load. Please note that it does include a virtual keyboard but lacks the numpad portion of a standard keyboard. Since XMess maps numpad keys to numpad buttons on the ColecoVision controller, this results in some confusing control mappings as well.
+ Strongly prefer GP2X running GP2XMess

Just wanted to let the reviewer know I added support for the virtual keypad. Good suggestion. Let me know how it works for you... ask and you receive.

Oh, and from what I can tell in xmess, the 1st pad is mapped to 0-9 and the 2nd pad is mapped to num0-num9. So I think you could have used the regular keyboard. To be honest I never tried it.

~telengard

 

[DaveC]

Just wanted to let the reviewer know I added support for the virtual keypad. Good suggestion. Let me know how it works for you... ask and you receive.
~telengard

Cool is it available yet? Not sure where the link is. I always liked the Coleco.

 

[telengard]

Just wanted to let the reviewer know I added support for the virtual keypad. Good suggestion. Let me know how it works for you... ask and you receive.
~telengard

Cool is it available yet? Not sure where the link is. I always liked the Coleco.

Yep, it's at my homepage. I posted it as a news article but I guess there is some propogation delay associated with that until someone reviews it.

http://users.adelphia.net/~bsturk/gp2x.html

~telengard

 

[vaustein]

@Telengard: Awesome! See, does this kind of interplay between developers and end-users ever happen in the PSP community?

@Exophase: I concede that the SNES comparison was rushed. Aside from that, your post can be neatly summarized as "Why should anyone care about vaustein's subjective opinion?" Right back at you - why should I care what you think?

[EDIT] @Exophase: Ah, I just discovered that you are developing a GBA emulator? Please, don't think my omission of the GBA from the comparison was motivated by willful disregard or flippance. I just happen to use my DS for GBA games. Also, the original post was rushed because I was studying for the GMAT (earned a great score) and @work has been busy lately. If someone else wishes to write a brief, accurate comparison of GBA emulation on GP2X vs PSP, I'd be happy to add it to my original post with credit to the author.

 

[imhotep]

If someone else wishes to write a brief, accurate comparison of GBA emulation on GP2X vs PSP, I'd be happy to add it to my original post with credit to the author.

The dynarec for the GP2X version of gpSP is in such rapid development that I would recommend waiting a few weeks before doing this.

 

[Jaguarandine]

Lol :lol: Generally speaking, Exophase is right. I love the GP2X and the community and all, but if people are really looking for an honest opnion on PSP and GP2X emulation, I don't think anyone can seriously say that GP2X is better here. We've been playing catch-up in terms of emulation to the PSP for the last several months now. Sure, we've come a long way, but still are behind.

Here are my pros over the PSP:
+runs linux (open source); can create your own games; easier porting of many apps; homebew supported by company
+better multimedia otb
+exandable funtionality, great potential
+better screen (no ghosting, stretching, or bluriness)
+tv-out capability, along with support for USB controllers
+Sony's not fighting you every step
+much easier impementation of apps (but not braindead)
+No crappy and expensive proprietary formats

Sure this is the GP2X forums, but certainly we're capable of objective opnions

 

[J201605]

well said.

 

[Exophase]

@telengard: Awesome! See, does this kind of interplay between developers and end-users ever happen in the PSP community?

@Exophase: I concede that the SNES comparison was rushed. Aside from that, your post can be neatly summarized as "Why should anyone care about vaustein's subjective opinion?" Right back at you - why should I care what you think?

[EDIT] @Exophase: Ah, I just discovered that you are developing a GBA emulator? Please, don't think my omission of the GBA from the comparison was motivated by willful disregard or flippance. I just happen to use my DS for GBA games. Also, the original post was rushed because I was studying for the GMAT (earned a great score) and @work has been busy lately. If someone else wishes to write a brief, accurate comparison of GBA emulation on GP2X vs PSP, I'd be happy to add it to my original post with credit to the author.

I didn't take anything you said personally. It's not that I have a problem with your opinions, rather, I understand where you're coming from. And most of the comparisons seem pretty useful to everyone. Which is basically why I think you posted this thread, to make a guide that was actually useful to other people. However, when you insert completely personal reasons for not adequetly comparing SNES emulators, and for not comparing GBA emulators at all, it makes it hard to take the entire list seriously. I think it would have done better with those two completely omitted, but you probably didn't because you recognize that they're amongst the most popular feasibly emulated platforms for the handhelds (next to PS1).

As far as emulators are concerned on PSP vs. GP2X, I can't give a personal statement because I haven't used that many on either platform (at least not extensively). Comparing GBA would be a really weird conflict of interests for me. Still, from what you've said in this post, and from what other people have said, what I gather is that GP2X has more mature emulators on average, for a variety of platforms, while PSP has had more energy focused on the most mainstream platforms (PS1, N64, and GBA all got a ton of dedicated attention with their emulators, somewhat behind are others which have received specific video hardware optimizations and other PSP specific engineering).

Emulation aside, these are my opinions...

PSP pros:
+ More core power (faster CPU, faster RAM)
+ Hardware aceleration which works well for 2D and 3D, along with VFPU
+ Bilinear filtering (contrary to DaveC's belief some people vastly prefer this over blocky scaling :B)
+ Second CPU is less crippled by lack of cache
+ Rechargeable builtin lithium ion battery is less of a hassle than AA's, comes with AC adapter
+ Resolution is good for movies and web browsing
+ Commercial games
+ Somewhat shoddy analog nub (but IMO better than nothing, try using a grip to increase accessability)
+ Powerful SDK on the firmware itself
+ Sturdy build quality

PSP cons:
- More expensive
- Sony firmware battle (I've had a 1.50 since the beginning though)
- Screen has ghosting, which can sometimes be very bad (vsync helps)
- Memory sticks are more expensive than SD cards
- D-pad isn't so good, although you can mod it VERY easily to improve this, with nothing more than a bit
of an NES sleeve and a screwdriver.
- Prone to strange defects over time
- Homebrew community has many selfish brats

GP2X pros:
+ More affordable
+ AA's mean you won't be stuck if you forget a charger
+ Much more memory
+ SD is cheap
+ Overclockable, sometimes ridiculously so
+ Has Linux, bringing with it all the benefits of a nice preemptively multitasking OS
+ Lets you FTP, SSH, Samba, even HTTP serve right out of the box
+ Has an MMU, which besides allowing Linux can be used to speed up emulators (if Linux is hacked around)
+ Has a lot of VRAM
+ The volup/voldown buttons are programmable, giving a great two additional option buttons
+ Cool mods can be done to it like the dpad mods
+ Good community with a lot of knowledgeable devs and nice people

GP2X cons:
- Getting a good AC adapter for it is expensive and doesn't come with the console (so if you need one you can pretty much expect to be paying the same or more than the PSP which comes with one and a case)
- Feels loose and too light (weird complaint, some people might prefer this)
- Common defects out of the box, like broken SD slot, speaker polarity issues.. the former being inexcuseable (does the company not test these at all?)
- D-stick isn't loved by all
- Screen has noticeable interlacing and bad viewing angles (especially north/south)
- The USB and AC adapter connectors are on the side of the GP2X, making it hard to even hold properly while they're plugged in, much less grip it so you can actually press the buttons (seriously amazes me how GPH pulls these things off)
- Kinda crippled without hacks applied (mmuhack) and other oddities persist (such as not returning to the gp2xmenu after a normal quit??)
- Overclocking capabilities are across the board, forcing devs to target the lowest common denominator sometimes (this isn't much of a real con, more like less of a pro above)
- Battery life isn't so hot with typical solutions
- Most of the community thinks it's a million times better than PSP and DS (okay, this one was a little mean XD)

 

[TelcoLou]

I can't seem to find a Sega CD emulator for the PSP.

Instant win for the '2X.

 

[Blah]

- Feels loose and too light (weird complaint, some people might prefer this)
- Common defects out of the box, like broken SD slot, speaker polarity issues.. the former being inexcuseable (does the company not test these at all?)

...

- Screen has noticeable interlacing and bad viewing angles (especially north/south)

Heh, to me it feels tight, and with good batteries in it, its heavier than most other handhelds. The speaker polarity is a old SW issue which has been mostly fixed AFAIK. Also the MK2 screen is really good, no interlacing here. I guess Exophase has an older model.

Thats too bad about your SD slot I hope you can get it fixed, you really deserve it.

 

[Jaguarandine]

Some comments:
-I think the control dpad issues with the psp and gp2x even out. They both have their problems.
-the gp2x is about as expensive as the psp imo because you have to buy a ac adpater seperately. Plus, you'll need a charger and some NIMH batteries because alkalines are just unacceptable. A card reader helps too, because transfer speeds throught the gp2x are slow for some.

Do any apps use the second core of the psp yet? Other than difficulty, I thought it drained the batteries too much.

 

[slaanesh]

+ More core power (faster CPU, faster RAM)

Given some 'C' code and then compiled for both the GP2X and PSP, if they were clocked at the same Mhz, which system would run it more quickly?

@Exophase: I enjoy reading your gpSP Blog and always look forward to new entries!

 

[Exophase]

+ More core power (faster CPU, faster RAM)

Given some 'C' code and then compiled for both the GP2X and PSP, if they were clocked at the same Mhz, which system would run it more quickly?

@Exophase: I enjoy reading your gpSP Blog and always look forward to new entries!

It's difficult to say, the ARM code would probably have less instructions for most things = less cycles for more work and less L1 cache pressure, but less registers meaning more memory spilling (also taking cycles) and sometimes the MIPS way of doing tests works better than flags (just sometimes)... and memory latency/speed would play a role.

Maybe we could get someone to do some benchmarks, that'd be fun. But of course, clock for clock is kinda moot since PSP just has more clock.

Thanks for the support on the blog, good to know someone gets something out of the technical drivel

 

[DaveC]

- Most of the community thinks it's a million times better than PSP and DS (okay, this one was a little mean XD)

+ Bilinear filtering (contrary to DaveC's belief some people vastly prefer this over blocky scaling :

I don't know about that one. I don't think all too many of us think the GP2X is actually "better" than the PSP hardware wise (because it really isn't) I just think that alot of us may just like it better for other reasons. The PSP is obviously better as far as the power of the hardware goes. I have both and I think the PSP is a better machine with more speed and better build quality (well except for mine maybe, I have a 1.5 version and there is a bunch of fingerprints and dust in the screen, sure they are better assembled now) etc. I just like the GP2X better for emus. For me mainly because the resolution matches better for many emus I use and the batteries don't drain themselves in a week even when off etc. I don't care for That XMB on the PSP, way too much scrolling one by one to get to what I want to load (I use Gmenu2X on the GP2X). Maybe there is an alternative PSP launcher? I haven't checked enough. I also think the GP2X has a better d-pad, well ok after modding that is So I guess it is like this: we know the PSP is better, but still like the Gp2X more. Because if we didn't we wouldn't be here, we would be at the PSP forums instead. If that makes any sense

The DS? well the lite is nice, it has nice bright screens. The screen(s) are kind of on the small side though and the low resolution makes it rather useless for emus. The commercial games are decent though and the battery lasts forever.

I think the filtering can look better than blocky scaling too actually. I don't like the filtering compared to 1:1 pixel mapping though. For example I like the 1:1 Genesis on the Gp2X far better than the stretched/filtered Genesis on the PSP. But Gameboy color scaled with filtering for example does look better than Gameboy color just stretched with no filter. So to me 1:1>filtered scaling>blocky scaling.

I would have added to the Gp2X side
+ emulated game screens are larger at 1:1 on the GP2X.

But basically I agree with *most* of what you said.

 

[Exophase]

I don't know about that one. I don't think all too many of us think the GP2X is actually "better" than the PSP hardware wise (because it really isn't) I just think that alot of us may just like it better for other reasons. The PSP is obviously better as far as the power of the hardware goes.

There's a somewhat prevailing opinion that they're about equal because of the performance of some emulators. Some think it's stronger. I don't know what the average opinion/belief is though.

I have both and I think the PSP is a better machine with more speed and better build quality (well except for mine maybe, I have a 1.5 version and there is a bunch of fingerprints and dust in the screen, sure they are better assembled now) etc. I just like the GP2X better for emus. For me mainly because the resolution matches better for many emus I use

I agree, although for GBA I think PSP matches better. Incidentally I've also ported another rather strange program that has a resolution of 640x350, this works better on PSP as well (downscaled of course, but the aspect ratio matches up almost exactly). Odd case though. Someone else ported this to GP2X and it doesn't work so well.

and the batteries don't drain themselves in a week even when off etc.

My PSP is always plugged in when I'm home so this doesn't really matter. I think it's easy to plug in and leave sitting somewhere, it's one of those things you get in the habit of doing (like with cell phones).

I don't care for That XMB on the PSP, way too much scrolling one by one to get to what I want to load (I use Gmenu2X on the GP2X).

I agree, of course I think the default menu on GP2X is even worse.

Maybe there is an alternative PSP launcher? I haven't checked enough.

Yes, there are a number of shells in fact. I hear irshell is one of the best although I haven't used any of them. The custom firmwares also include an option for loading to these directly.

You can also use PSPLink, which will let you launch programs remotely (and debug them). This would be the alternative to telnet/SSHing into it, which IMO is by far the way to go for GP2X development (my views might be a little skewed because I spend far more time developing on both platforms than I do using them)

I also think the GP2X has a better d-pad, well ok after modding that is

Actually, I'd really like your opinion on this mod:

http://ufighterx.com/guides/videogame/pspd.../pspdpadfix.htm

I have a friend who tells me that you don't need to use glue, rather you can just poke a hole in the sleeve and it'll fit snugly inside the dpad. So it should require no materials other than a screwdriver and an NES sleeve, and you can use other material instead of you don't have one (like thin posterboard, I think). I don't have an NES sleeve right now so I can't do it but I'll search around for one..

Mainly I just want to see a modder's opinion on one like this, especially if you manage to do it.

So I guess it is like this: we know the PSP is better, but still like the Gp2X more. Because if we didn't we wouldn't be here, we would be at the PSP forums instead. If that makes any sense

Of course, and I don't think either platform is "better." Rather they have lots of pros and cons, both inherent ones and in what's available for both. And as we see lots of people have both of them and use them. But I do get a lot of vibes around here that the GP2X is a clear winner across the board, and there at least used to be a comparison on the Wiki which I thought was incredibly biased.

The DS? well the lite is nice, it has nice bright screens. The screen(s) are kind of on the small side though and the low resolution makes it rather useless for emus. The commercial games are decent though and the battery lasts forever.

I agree, although somehow a lot of people insist that SNES emulation on DS is fine. Me, I will tolerate upscaling with filtering, and to a much lesser extent downscaling with filtering, but downscaling without filtering is pretty terrible, and clipping has lots of problems as well. But these things don't seem to bother a lot of people for some reason..

I think the filtering can look better than blocky scaling too actually. I don't like the filtering compared to 1:1 pixel mapping though. For example I like the 1:1 Genesis on the Gp2X far better than the stretched/filtered Genesis on the PSP.

I agree. The only time I don't agree is for a large monitor; I can't stand integer scaling because it makes it look very blocky. But a lot of people don't agree with this. In the case of handhelds 1:1 is always desireable if it takes up all or most of the screen real estate.

But Gameboy color scaled with filtering for example does look better than Gameboy color just stretched with no filter. So to me 1:1>filtered scaling>blocky scaling.

I also think the filtering looks better on lower color platforms where the blockiness shows through more, and there's less information overall lost. This is especially true on the original gameboy. I mean this in comparison to filtering on platforms with a lot of colors.

However, I would obviously take filtered scaling over 1:1 when the resolution differently is too great. Unfortunately these platforms don't have large enough resolutions to provide integer multiple scaling in almost any case. I definitely prefer GBA filtered on PSP over unscaled on GP2X, although this makes it more blurry and washed out the screen size is much larger.

I would have added to the Gp2X side
+ emulated game screens are larger at 1:1 on the GP2X.

But basically I agree with *most* of what you said.

Yes. Actually, I meant to mention that and forgot. However, only in some cases is 1:1 truly the most desireable option for everyone, mainly 8bit/16bit era consoles, not necessarily old consoles, computers, handhelds, etc.

(bleh, the quote limit on this forum is annoying)

 

[Gaeryc]

DS isn't for emulators, but if you get supercard,m3 or other thing like that you can play ALL gba and ds games.
Its different than others, it has more games for it (ds and gba games) but less games that you can play with it (you can play snes and genesis games with gp2x, but they aren't for it)

This is good way to practice englis :lol:

 

[DaveC]

There's a somewhat prevailing opinion that they're about equal because of the performance of some emulators. Some think it's stronger. I don't know what the average opinion/belief is though.

I agree, although for GBA I think PSP matches better.

My PSP is always plugged in when I'm home so this doesn't really matter. I think it's easy to plug in and leave sitting somewhere, it's one of those things you get in the habit of doing (like with cell phones).

I agree (XMB not great), of course I think the default menu on GP2X is even worse.

Actually, I'd really like your opinion on this mod:

http://ufighterx.com/guides/videogame/pspd.../pspdpadfix.htm

But I do get a lot of vibes around here that the GP2X is a clear winner across the board, and there at least used to be a comparison on the Wiki which I thought was incredibly biased.

The only time I don't agree is for a large monitor; I can't stand integer scaling because it makes it look very blocky. But a lot of people don't agree with this. In the case of handhelds 1:1 is always desireable if it takes up all or most of the screen real estate.

I also think the filtering looks better on lower color platforms where the blockiness shows through more, and there's less information overall lost. This is especially true on the original gameboy. I mean this in comparison to filtering on platforms with a lot of colors.

only in some cases is 1:1 truly the most desireable option for everyone, mainly 8bit/16bit era consoles, not necessarily old consoles, computers, handhelds, etc.

I think the average belief here is that the PSP is stronger. But again I think many may like the GP2X for other non-power reasons like using Linux, totally open etc.

GBA? Well That one gets to the edge. It gets to opinion. I played your emu on the PSP (brilliant) but it did look rather fuzzy due to the large amount of scaling. 1:1 looked sharp on the PSP but was just too small due to pixel size. At 1:1 on the GP2X the image is about 2.5" which is not *that* much smaller than a real GBA at 2.8" or even smaller running through a DS. *I* prefer the 1:1 screen on the GP2X as it is just so sharp. I can see this being totally personal preference though as it is starting to get to the limit of being too small, kind of on the edge. Of course right now the GBA emu runs alot better on the PSP as it is smoother with better non-stuttering sound. Only you know how close the GP2X version can get. Hopefully it can get relatively close.

I don't know but leaving the PSP plugged in all of the time may not be the best for the batteries. I think Li-ions last better if totally charged, then mostly drained. Not a big deal I guess jut buy another when worn out.

The default menu on the GP2X is definatly worse, honestly and bluntly, it sucks. That is why I use Gmenu2X. It is great for those with alot of apps like me. The grid layout with scroll wrap gets you to your app FAST.

That PSP-Dpad mod looks like it would work. My only concern is that the increased thickness would make it stiffer, but you can't be sure until you test it. It looks pretty simple though so wouldn't hurt to try it. If I did it I could also clean the dust and "pizza-paw" prints out from in there too

Yeah the posts here will be pretty biased. Par for the course on fansites. I read posts on PSP sites saying what a piece of crap the Gp2X is, that is to be expected.

Yes integer scaling on a PC monitor looks bad. The pixel size is just *too large* and it looks a blocky mess. Some filtering is OK there and when you filter an even integer it looks better than filtering a fractional scale.

"filtering looks better on lower color platforms" Well sometimes. If I play NES at 1:1 on the GP2X I like it better not filtered. That is low color but since the image fills enough of the screen it still looks nice and sharp without being too blocky. For GB yes some filtering would be better if scaled or it ends up looking bad due to the fractional scale.

As far as 1:1 being most desirable for everyone probably not. Stretched and filtered is not the most desirable for everyone either. The main reason I like the GP2X resolution and size is that the threshold of image size being acceptable size at 1:1 is better. This means that even though sometimes even if not full screen the image is still large enough on more emus to where it is still desirable to play 1:1 unmolested and sharp more often then it is on the PSP. More emulated systems are past that "size threshold" on the GP2X. Genesis for example is basically just as big on the Gp2X at 1:1 as it is on the PSP but scaled maintaining aspect (at 1:1 it is alot smaller on the PSP). So for the same image size on both (unless you go 16:9 but then it looks weird), it is sharper on the GP2X. I guess this all depends on your tolerances for sharpness, image size, filtering and combinations thereof for many things though.

 

[slaanesh]

There's a somewhat prevailing opinion that they're about equal because of the performance of some emulators. Some think it's stronger. I don't know what the average opinion/belief is though.

I've never though the GP2X was better. Well, at the start I did because of the hype about 2 CPUs. Then I found out that the PSP also has two CPUs. And then I found out that a fair chunk of work needs to be done to make the 2nd CPU on the GP2X useful. For most devs, it will never be used, which seems to be a pity. If only we had a nice SDK that could somehow make use of it...

Anyway, I was thinking the GP2X seems to be highly overclockable. Although this is random amongst individual units.

Is the PSP overclockable? 222Mhz is the "standard" underclocked speed, whilst 266 and 300Mhz are the inbetweens, maxxing out at 333Mhz. Can it go higher than this?

A standard GP2X can always get to 240Mhz, many to 250Mhz. Some even get to 300Mhz. This is ~125% of the original 200Mhz speed.

Can a PSP go higher than 333Mhz through software? Or is this the absolute limit?

 

[Exophase]

There's a somewhat prevailing opinion that they're about equal because of the performance of some emulators. Some think it's stronger. I don't know what the average opinion/belief is though.

I've never though the GP2X was better. Well, at the start I did because of the hype about 2 CPUs. Then I found out that the PSP also has two CPUs. And then I found out that a fair chunk of work needs to be done to make the 2nd CPU on the GP2X useful. For most devs, it will never be used, which seems to be a pity. If only we had a nice SDK that could somehow make use of it...

Anyway, I was thinking the GP2X seems to be highly overclockable. Although this is random amongst individual units.

Is the PSP overclockable? 222Mhz is the "standard" underclocked speed, whilst 266 and 300Mhz are the inbetweens, maxxing out at 333Mhz. Can it go higher than this?

A standard GP2X can always get to 240Mhz, many to 250Mhz. Some even get to 300Mhz. This is ~125% of the original 200Mhz speed.

Can a PSP go higher than 333Mhz through software? Or is this the absolute limit?

It is the limit

All PSPs can do it though.

 

[DaveC]

Anyway, I was thinking the GP2X seems to be highly overclockable. Although this is random amongst individual units.

Is the PSP overclockable? 222Mhz is the "standard" underclocked speed, whilst 266 and 300Mhz are the inbetweens, maxxing out at 333Mhz. Can it go higher than this?

A standard GP2X can always get to 240Mhz, many to 250Mhz. Some even get to 300Mhz. This is ~125% of the original 200Mhz speed.

Can a PSP go higher than 333Mhz through software? Or is this the absolute limit?

I think it is time for me to seek out a 300 MHz MK2. I an sick of my lame 240 MHz not being to run GBA with sound that is not a stuttery mess. I also would like DrPocketSNES to run better and not be so choppy in some games. Then I would mod my unit to use 2 of those standard oversized AA Li-ions to handle the extra load. I wonder where I can get a guaranteed 300 MHz unit, does any store sell units tested to work with high OC anymore?