All Refunds Not Sent Yet

[btgarner]

What fees??? Are you talking about the difference in amounts that people are seeing due to the changes in exchange rates with UK pounds? That's the only reason that people aren't seeing 100% of their money back in some cases, especially those of us in the U.S.

In the US, you are getting dinged with 2 separate fees.

1. There is a Currency Conversion Fee (seems to be 2-5% depending on your bank). This is a fee
that is assessed on any transaction done in foreign currency. This doing multiple ordered over your
credit card will invoke multiple instances of these.

2. The Currency Conversion Rate "fee" -- this is the fee that is making it so that your $358 order is
only going to get you a $303 refund.

There is a third fee that I have seen mentioned: that future Credit Card orders will be charged a
processing fee for the luxery of using credit cards (which as many have pointed out, is a violation
of the merchant's agreement that they agree to when they agree to accept credit cards). You
can report this to Visa and MasterCard, but do not expect to get a refund on it. You might be able to,
but in all likelihood all that will happen is that the business will be told to knock it off, and if more
complaints are received, their ability to accept cards can be revoked.

#2 is only relevant if you are canceling your order. If you are, Call your CC bank after you have
gotten the refund and let them know that it was not done properly since you lost $55 (or whatever)
and received NO MERCHANDISE. They should be able to correct this as this is deemed a MERCHANT
ERROR since the refund was not handled correctly. If they cannot, then simply contest both the initial
charge and the refund charge (be sure to do both). You may also be able to get fee #1 waived since
no real transaction took place.

Good luck.

And for the record: I received my "Action Required" note yesterday, after it had been announced that
no more emails were going out.

 

[Prometheus]

(which as many have pointed out, is a violation
of the merchant's agreement that they agree to when they agree to accept credit cards)

I have to ask, are you sure about that? What about the various airlines, restaurants, and so on, who put a "Credit Card Surcharge" on your bill if you pay via credit card? :blink:

 

[Wolfspirit]

Well... I just got the email today, but no refund yet. In case anyone is wondering my location, I am in the U.S. in Ohio. Hopefully I get my full refund and not 50 dollars less like the previous guy mentioned. I'm not sure I would want to pay another 50 again for the pandora when I was promised it was a certain price to begin with. I'll inform the board once my refund goes through as to whether my bank does this or not. Thanks.

 

[gaterooze]

2. The Currency Conversion Rate "fee" -- this is the fee that is making it so that your $358 order is only going to get you a $303 refund.

THIS IS NOT A FEE.

You paid, e.g. 199 pounds. This was calculated at current exchange rates as, e.g. US$330 and removed from your account.

You were refunded *199 pounds*. This was calculated at current exchange rates as, e.g. US$300 and added to your account.

When you reorder, you will pay 199 pounds. This will be calculated at current exchange rates as, e.g. US$300.17 and removed from your account.

Your own bank may charge you fees on top of this.

I truly cannot believe how foolish some people are being about this. Why the hell did you preorder such an ambitious project in the first place if this is how you react to the slightest hiccup? I mean, really, what is the big deal? As an individual, you simply have to resend your order (2 minutes work) and you might be out $10, however in exchange you will be getting *double the RAM and NAND*.

If 2 minutes of effort to enter your details again and $10 is enough to make you jump ship, when you're now getting even more for your money... oy. There will be hundreds lining up to take your place. I'd even grab a second!

Hopefully I get my full refund and not 50 dollars less like the previous guy mentioned. I'm not sure I would want to pay another 50 again for the pandora when I was promised it was a certain price to begin with.

Please see my post above -- that comment was written by someone who forgot about or does not understand currency fluctuation. You get refunded exactly the price you paid (in UK pounds), and that is converted at whatever current rate your currency is trading at. For me in Australia, I'm actually getting back $50 MORE than I paid.

You won't have to pay any extra to reorder (apart from a small credit card fee, perhaps, which will be like $5). You'll get refunded almost exactly the amount it will cost to reorder. The only difference will be currency fluctuations over the next few days, which could be a few cents in either direction but really nothing to worry about.

 

[btgarner]

I have to ask, are you sure about that? What about the various airlines, restaurants, and so on, who put a "Credit Card Surcharge" on your bill if you pay via credit card? :blink:

In the US, yes (which is what I said in the original post).

from the Visa Merchant Agreement (http://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/rules_for_visa_merchants.pdf):

QUOTE

No Surcharging
"... you may not impose any surcharge on a Visa transaction ..."



That is not to say that the rules may be different elsewhere, but as a US card holder, I am entitled to use my Visa Card without a surcharge from any merchant who accepts it.

 

[Olexxy]

That seems strange to have different laws applicable... In the uk clearly there is surcharge applied by airliners for instance. As visa is an international system, I don't think that it's the user status ( you being american citizen) that prevails but I guess it's the laws of the shop's registered country that is applicable to the transaction (otherwise fiscal paradise would not exist). Afaik there's no law in the uk preventing additonal fees for cc usage.

 

[gaterooze]

That is not to say that the rules may be different elsewhere, but as a US card holder, I am entitled to use my Visa Card without a surcharge from any merchant who accepts it.

From a US merchant, yes. That doesn't cover international merchants. I've used my Visa to pay for airline tickets in Australia and have had to pay credit card ordering surcharges.

 

[btgarner]

2. The Currency Conversion Rate "fee" -- this is the fee that is making it so that your $358 order is only going to get you a $303 refund.

THIS IS NOT A FEE.

Thanks -- that is why the word fee is in double quotes. it may not be a fee, but the net effect is the same.

When you reorder, you will pay 199 pounds. This will be calculated at current exchange rates as, e.g. US$300.17 and removed from your account.

You are assuming that all these persons are reordering, and you are correct, if they are, then the net loss
is not there. You are paying at the original conversion rate. I think, though, form context that it is pretty obvious that this whole experience has soured quite a few persons on how this was handled, and we really want nothing to do with the project at this point. it has been posted that we can get a refund at any time, so we are opting for that. the refunds should be handled properly, that is the original charge should be canceled, if this were to happen then the amount refunded would match the amount paid. However this is not what folks are reporting as happening. it is a small difference, but it is a difference that is costing some foreigners who ordered a fair amount of cash.

I truly cannot believe how foolish some people are being about this. Why the hell did you preorder such an ambitious project in the first place if this is how you react to the slightest hiccup? I mean, really, what is the big deal? As an individual, you simply have to resend your order (2 minutes work) and you might be out $10, however in exchange you will be getting *double the RAM and NAND*.

Pre-orders were taken with an estimated delivery date.
Delivery date not going to be met.
Refunds requested.

Is it that hard to understand? Why should I have to lose 37 UKP when I have not received any product, nor will I?

QUOTE

Please see my post above -- that comment was written by someone who forgot about or does not understand currency fluctuation. You get refunded exactly the price you paid (in UK pounds), and that is converted at whatever current rate your currency is trading at. For me in Australia, I'm actually getting back $50 MORE than I paid.


Not sure what post specifically you are referring to, but in my case, it is being posted by someone who is not going to re-order. Get it through your head that not everyone is. I wish the project all the best, but at this point there are other alternatives that will do what I want for a similar price, and are available *now*, so I can no longer support it, at least financially.

Please accept that some of us are not zealots, and that we do not want to throw good money after bad.
That is not saying that I think the project will be a failure, in fact I wish it the best of luck, and maybe at
a later time when the kinks are worked out of the ordering system, I will get in line again. But not now.

I have posted info so that anyone who gets hit by the currency conversion "fee" can hopefully recover at least some of that, and if that helps several persons out there, then the posts have been worth it.

 

[TaG]

I was going to post a serious sensible reply pointing out a few things, just like GunPei2X did. But you know what? It really won't make any difference or stop people moaning. So I'm going to dip out of all these bitch fest threads and keep smilin'.

Please create a seperate sub-forum for these threads. Please...

 

[j.pickens]

I was going to post a serious sensible reply pointing out a few things, just like GunPei2X did. But you know what? It really won't make any difference or stop people moaning. So I'm going to dip out of all these bitch fest threads and keep smilin'.

Please create a seperate sub-forum for these threads. Please...

X+1!!!
Oh, God, yes, please make it one thread, pretty please?

 

[Prometheus]

I have to ask, are you sure about that? What about the various airlines, restaurants, and so on, who put a "Credit Card Surcharge" on your bill if you pay via credit card? :blink:

In the US, yes (which is what I said in the original post).

from the Visa Merchant Agreement (http://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/rules_for_visa_merchants.pdf):

QUOTE

No Surcharging
"... you may not impose any surcharge on a Visa transaction ..."



That is not to say that the rules may be different elsewhere, but as a US card holder, I am entitled to use my Visa Card without a surcharge from any merchant who accepts it.

I did see that you said about the US in your post. However, I asked what I asked because it seemed to me that the US rules would not apply to a British merchant, and thus the "violation many had pointed out" of the merchant's agreement you mentioned surely does not apply, as it is not a violation in the country of the merchant. (Um, I hope that made sense in text form like it did in my head... :lol: My apologies if my wording is poor.)

 

[Wolfspirit]

Hopefully you are not implying that my post was moaning or bitching. With so many posts it can get confusing so please forgive me if you were speaking about someone else. That being said, I understand the nature of this project. I have been an early adopter for many gadgets in the past (gp32, gp2x, etc. just to name some that are related to this community) but I can definitely understand the frustration of some of these people, even I am a bit annoyed by the whole process by I still want the pandora so I will be reordering.

<rant>
Think about this for a second if you will... someone offers you a product with feature 'A' and feature 'B' and tells you that it will be available starting in one month. Then tells everyone there are delays (which is to be expected and is understandable given the circumstances that had happened). To top it off they now say, for the troubles we are going to be adding in feature 'C' and feature 'D'. Awesome, this is good news, even though I have to wait longer I am getting some new features which makes the product even better than before, cool beans... however, due to exchange rates and bank processing fees there is a 'POSSIBILITY' that you may have to pay more money.. maybe even 50 dollars more. Yes, the new features added are worth more than that, but to be honest when I bought the product with feature 'A' and 'B' at a set price, this is what I invested in and put in 350 dollars of my money, not 400 dollars of my money. Yes, this is a homebrew device and company, but either way at the end of the day it's still business. Whether you support the project or not, I don't know too many people who support a project enough to continue to throw money at it especially someone like me who has four kids, 50 dollars can go along way.

Anyways, I'm not bitching, I'm just trying to help you realize that your 'situation' might be different than others. Besides, didn't you say that you actually made money on this? Of course you wouldn't be pissed off.. now if you had to pay an extra 50-100 dollars, you would be backing out as well I assume. So in the end, just because someone will end up deciding to not re-order does not make then any less of a supporter of the project than you or I, they are just in a different situation. </rant>

 

[gaterooze]

however, due to exchange rates and bank processing fees there is a 'POSSIBILITY' that you may have to pay more money.. maybe even 50 dollars more.

Dude, where is this coming from? No one, I repeat NO ONE, is going to have to pay anywhere near $50 more to reorder. At MOST it will be about $5-10 in bank charges. That's all.

 

[Sphinxter]

Day 8 after the letter, no refund.

 

[ShyGuy]

What? People are obviously not using their heads, here. Listen. There are two separate issues; let me make this very clear for you:

CURRENCY EXCHANGE RATE FLUCTUATION
Since US purchasers are the main voice here, I'll focus on US exchange rates. On October 5, 2008, the USD -> GBP exchange rate was 0.56460. That means our $329.99 was worth ~186.31 GBP. Today, the exchange rate is 0.68020. That same 186.31 GBP is only worth $273.90 now!

This is the same amount after exchange rates are taken into effect.

Prices on most goods don't fluctuate directly with the strength of the dollar, so unfortunately that $273.90 has less purchasing power than your $329.99 of October 5th. However, if you reorder your Pandora you should only have to pay (roughly) $273.90 and you won't lose a dime. More importantly, Craig and co won't benefit in any way - this isn't some elaborate scam to make bank on exchange rates. It actually gets worse for them, which I'll explore next.

CREDIT CARD FEES/SURCHARGES
When you initially bought your preorder you weren't charged a credit card surcharge. GBAX absorbed fee themselves, as they should have. Take a moment to understand this: Craig has already paid the fee once. This is very important.

Now that we're having to reorder, any purchases via credit card will incur another credit card fee. This has people up in arms, thinking they'll be the ones responsible for covering the fee. The reason bank transfer is preferred is so GBAX doesn't have to incur the credit card fee a second time. When the reorder page is brought up, I highly doubt the fee will be passed onto you.

Note: as specified earlier, there are other fees that may find their way into your reorder price, for example exchange rate conversion. At the worst, you may have to spend maybe $5 or $10 more than the $273.90 I calculated above.

Can we try to have fewer knee-jerk reactions and more intelligent conversation now?

EDIT: One more thing I'd like to mention. If you're dissatisfied with the situation, please communicate with GBAX and negotiate a refund directly. Making a ton of noise to the credit card processor can only be a bad thing for the rest of us who only want to reorder. If it turns out that GBAX gets blacklisted by their credit card processor because of one too many whiners - who haven't stopped to analyze the situation, the whole project will be in dire straights and I will personally be fuckin' pissed.

 

[krooked]

usually i have to go to the local McDonald's to see such bickering over simple tasks. now i can get it at home lucky me

 

[Tom`]

...

Everything you say is totally correct.

However...

People in the US paid a fixed price in USD - $339. Any conversion to GBP was handled transparently to the customer. So when the US refund comes, and it's less than $339, anyone who doesn't re-order is going to be out some amount of money based on currency fluctuations. The thing is, there was no real information on the order page that I can remember that indicated a specific amount in pounds that was being paid, so it's fairly reasonable that those who aren't going to re-order are going to be upset. I would be, too.

It doesn't make any difference to me, because I plan to re-order if and when I actually receive a refund, and it certainly doesn't reflect any nefarious intent on the part of the Pandora team, but in the end people are still losing quite a bit of money - having up to $70 just disappear is non-trivial for lots of people, even if it's not actually anyone's fault.

 

[ShyGuy]

Totally valid point, and it was undoubtedly an oversight on GBAX's part. For that I do agree they're partially responsible. Unfortunately there's nothing they can do without being down far more money cumulatively.

My main points were essentially that there's nothing to "investigate," no scam, and almost definitely no credit card surcharges to be paid when we reorder. I'm essentially worried that the hysterical people are going to end up jeopardizing the project for the rest of us.

 

[cranker]

It's simple really...No one likes to lose money........However, supporting this project and having the chance to be the FIRST to have this system has a price and whoever is not comfortable with the possiblities of delays , losing some money or even worse problems that may be encountered along the way should have waited until the system was actually available.......that's the price in this case take it or leave it. I fully support the pandora team on this project with it's ups and downs. Without them there would be no pandora and without us there would be no pandora.........we need each other.....................too much complaining !!! If you don't have the money to spare then you should not have pre-oered. Investing in a new product always involves risks AND rewards and I am pretty sure we all were aware of what we were getting into. it's not like buying a DS or PSP.

Go pandora This is an investment you are making based on the team making it and the community supporting it. The reward is worth the risk to me. That would be the only reason I invested in this project. If the potential reward was not greater that the potential risk no one would have forked over their hard earned cash. So many questions being asked so many times for things that are out of our control anyway....just slows things down.....my opinion.


Cheers

 

[Yigguth]

When will the credit card reorder page be up? I'm starting to lose my patience