mali
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I know when it's enough, you don't. It's as simple as thatKarel Jansens said:
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About ÆØÅ
- Thread starter txd
- Start date
peca
Active Member
Come on boys. I'm unhappy with actual ED's layout too, but when we pre-ordered there was nothing promising the better layout than was on pictures. I guess that somebody "don't care", somebody hope "it'll be fixed" and maybe somebody like it.
I stay on board with any layout. I hope for some good US/international/universal that let me define 4 diacritics for Czech language (or even 2 basics and must have). But even if it not happen, I like to get my Pandora. Blank keymat promised and may be custom can be ordered. So in worst scenario I solve this pain in ass later.
If make another layout is easy and not coast more than just one then I'm for allowing choice at least from localized and non-localized layouts.
EDIT: I guess we should wait for answer from someone responsible and pause whining
I stay on board with any layout. I hope for some good US/international/universal that let me define 4 diacritics for Czech language (or even 2 basics and must have). But even if it not happen, I like to get my Pandora. Blank keymat promised and may be custom can be ordered. So in worst scenario I solve this pain in ass later.
If make another layout is easy and not coast more than just one then I'm for allowing choice at least from localized and non-localized layouts.
EDIT: I guess we should wait for answer from someone responsible and pause whining
MDave
ZEQ2 Lite Developer
Yes, it wouldn't be so bad if we can get the mats we want later on. It's just a pain in the ass, because we need to wait for them to be produced, fork out more money to buy them, and possibly void the warranty or accidental damage from opening up your Pandora.peca said:
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maciek_urbanski
Member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2008
- Messages
- 161
Sorry for being too emotional...
But I feel very strongly about this, and for the first time I'm very disappointed in decision of Pandora Team.
I like Germans very much, I interface with them in work quite a lot & I'm very fond of their sense of humor.
So don't think for a sec that my negative emotions are directed towards German people.
I'm disappointed only with Pandora Team (in context of keyboard design). It brings back memories about the worst design decisions I've witnessed - usually because of schedule, but sometimes (like in this case) because of "marketing department"... It resulted in product that was functional, but in some scenarios - very irritating to use.
It is very important to me, but I will not leave the community. If the design will not change I will probably get my Pandora in 2nd or 3rd batch.
And sorry for emotional outbursts... I keep this project close to heart, hence the emotions...
But I feel very strongly about this, and for the first time I'm very disappointed in decision of Pandora Team.
I like Germans very much, I interface with them in work quite a lot & I'm very fond of their sense of humor.
So don't think for a sec that my negative emotions are directed towards German people.
I'm disappointed only with Pandora Team (in context of keyboard design). It brings back memories about the worst design decisions I've witnessed - usually because of schedule, but sometimes (like in this case) because of "marketing department"... It resulted in product that was functional, but in some scenarios - very irritating to use.
It is very important to me, but I will not leave the community. If the design will not change I will probably get my Pandora in 2nd or 3rd batch.
And sorry for emotional outbursts... I keep this project close to heart, hence the emotions...
Blue Ion
Member
I've been reading for several months the forums, even joined ages ago, and this is the only thing that has ticked me enough to post here.
I don't understand why people still think when we are against EDs layout, we want to include our special keys (in my case the ñ since I'm spanish).
What Karel REALLY wants (and so others opposers as well as I) is remove any language specific key. No german keys, no french keys, no turkish, no spanish, nothing; but provide enough punctuations keys to recreate them.
What's more, I fail to see why you need special keys on normal keyboards when spaniards has to use ´ and ¨ and have to "compose" letters to create áéíóú, ü. Heck, we have the letter ñ but to be honest I couldn't care less if I had to do AltGr 4 + n.
Besides something of uttermost importance: Doesn't opening the pandora VOIDS the warranty?
I will not lose the warranty on anything that expansive (it's cheap for what it is, but I demand a warranty for anything above 100€) and specially on anything that's first batch of a model bound to have more problems than later batches. As sad as it may, this means a no go to me. Since we are already very tight on keys, why waste them on characters only a small group of people will ever use.
If we keep the warranty (and the promise of delivery of country specific keymats rather soonish) then, perhaps, is not much of an issue to me.
But, then again, why no make a standard international keymat with the pandora, and then provide keymats for every country.
I don't understand why people still think when we are against EDs layout, we want to include our special keys (in my case the ñ since I'm spanish).
What Karel REALLY wants (and so others opposers as well as I) is remove any language specific key. No german keys, no french keys, no turkish, no spanish, nothing; but provide enough punctuations keys to recreate them.
What's more, I fail to see why you need special keys on normal keyboards when spaniards has to use ´ and ¨ and have to "compose" letters to create áéíóú, ü. Heck, we have the letter ñ but to be honest I couldn't care less if I had to do AltGr 4 + n.
Besides something of uttermost importance: Doesn't opening the pandora VOIDS the warranty?
I will not lose the warranty on anything that expansive (it's cheap for what it is, but I demand a warranty for anything above 100€) and specially on anything that's first batch of a model bound to have more problems than later batches. As sad as it may, this means a no go to me. Since we are already very tight on keys, why waste them on characters only a small group of people will ever use.
If we keep the warranty (and the promise of delivery of country specific keymats rather soonish) then, perhaps, is not much of an issue to me.
But, then again, why no make a standard international keymat with the pandora, and then provide keymats for every country.
Edy
Member
Despite the language favoritisms, there are a couple of (IMHO) common sense questions I cannot find answer for:
1) What's the symbol "§"? What's it used to? I had to open the charmap to write it here. It's captioned as "section sign". Why this symbol is SO important that it deserves a privileged position in the keyboard layout? I can't remember to have seen it ANYWHERE (books, websites, magazines...) EVER.
2) Where's the comma symbol? why isn't it easily accesible? why whoever has designed this layout thinks that "§" is much more important that "comma"?
I've really thought about it but I really cannot find proper answers to these questions. Even the keyboard layout of the firsts renders seems much more complete, neutral and suitable for all regions.
I have a suggestion for keeping the keyboard neutral but also allowing any specific-language symbol to be used. First, just keep the neutral layout from the first renders. Then, enable a button (i.e. Left Trigger) that, while pressed, shows on-screen a drawing of an alternate keyboard layout. While it's pressend and the drawing showed, keypresses on the keyboard would generate the symbols of the alternate layout. Of course, this alternate layout would be software-configurable so there could have presets for ALL countries / regions. This would avoid the need of printing region-specific symbols on the keyboard.
Also, assume that the alternate keyboard drawing is displayed as semi-transparent overlay. Thus, it could be easily used while clearly seeing the generated text.
Anyways, let's just hope that the keyboard layout of the current renders is just a joke or test for calibrating the customers' reactions. Of course it's not finalized, as even the ABXY buttons are still placed in the non-definitive positions: the prototype assembled by MWeston, as well as the software for testing the controls show ABXY in different positions.
Let's cross the fingers.
I'm also spanish and appreciate the inclusion of the "Ñ" symbol, but I would really preffer to have an international keymat with the commonly used keys easily accessible (where's the comma in the latest layout?), and then having to press a combo of button-N to get the Ñ key.
1) What's the symbol "§"? What's it used to? I had to open the charmap to write it here. It's captioned as "section sign". Why this symbol is SO important that it deserves a privileged position in the keyboard layout? I can't remember to have seen it ANYWHERE (books, websites, magazines...) EVER.
2) Where's the comma symbol? why isn't it easily accesible? why whoever has designed this layout thinks that "§" is much more important that "comma"?
I've really thought about it but I really cannot find proper answers to these questions. Even the keyboard layout of the firsts renders seems much more complete, neutral and suitable for all regions.
I have a suggestion for keeping the keyboard neutral but also allowing any specific-language symbol to be used. First, just keep the neutral layout from the first renders. Then, enable a button (i.e. Left Trigger) that, while pressed, shows on-screen a drawing of an alternate keyboard layout. While it's pressend and the drawing showed, keypresses on the keyboard would generate the symbols of the alternate layout. Of course, this alternate layout would be software-configurable so there could have presets for ALL countries / regions. This would avoid the need of printing region-specific symbols on the keyboard.
Also, assume that the alternate keyboard drawing is displayed as semi-transparent overlay. Thus, it could be easily used while clearly seeing the generated text.
Anyways, let's just hope that the keyboard layout of the current renders is just a joke or test for calibrating the customers' reactions. Of course it's not finalized, as even the ABXY buttons are still placed in the non-definitive positions: the prototype assembled by MWeston, as well as the software for testing the controls show ABXY in different positions.
Let's cross the fingers.
Moreover, I believe it would be easier and faster to make an standard international keymat, but then provide the region-specific symbols in software in a way like I suggested above.Blue Ion said:
I'm also spanish and appreciate the inclusion of the "Ñ" symbol, but I would really preffer to have an international keymat with the commonly used keys easily accessible (where's the comma in the latest layout?), and then having to press a combo of button-N to get the Ñ key.
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CoMiKe
Member
I'm spanish. We use special characters (á, é, í, ó, ú, ü and ñ, of course).
BUT I don't want them printed on the keyboard, and I also don't want other regional symbols taking up some valuable space on the keyboard.
I believe that only the basic 128 first ASCII characters should be printed on the keyboard.
Why? Because they are COMMON for the vast majority of languages.
All other regional symbols should be accesible using a compose key combination.
BUT I don't want them printed on the keyboard, and I also don't want other regional symbols taking up some valuable space on the keyboard.
I believe that only the basic 128 first ASCII characters should be printed on the keyboard.
Why? Because they are COMMON for the vast majority of languages.
All other regional symbols should be accesible using a compose key combination.
Bronek
Member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2008
- Messages
- 117
I am among those requesting removal of all language-specific characters. They do not offend me, it's more aesthetic and usability issue (and yes, I do not buy nor use keyboard with diacritic characters of my own language, and there are quite a few). There is one group of special characters I'd actually want to see, though - currency symbols, specifically these four: $ £ € ¥ . Why? Because I actually do use first three, and the last one is just enough to emphasise shared international pedigree of the project.Blue Ion said:
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Karel Jansens
Active Member
It's not so much the actual layout (although the apparent favoritism p*sses me off no end), but when I pre-ordered, I believed I was pre-ordering a device that was community-designed. There has been a clear and unbiased voice of the community on the keyboard layout, one to which none of the developers opposed at the time (and this was before the pre-order date!). And yet now we learn that those same developers apparently chose to ignore that very community decision, in favour of -- of all things! -- an effing marketing decision.peca said:Come on boys. I'm unhappy with actual ED's layout too, but when we pre-ordered there was nothing promising the better layout than was on pictures. I guess that somebody "don't care", somebody hope "it'll be fixed" and maybe somebody like it.
I stay on board with any layout. I hope for some good US/international/universal that let me define 4 diacritics for Czech language (or even 2 basics and must have). But even if it not happen, I like to get my Pandora. Blank keymat promised and may be custom can be ordered. So in worst scenario I solve this pain in ass later.
If make another layout is easy and not coast more than just one then I'm for allowing choice at least from localized and non-localized layouts.
EDIT: I guess we should wait for answer from someone responsible and pause whining
Normally I wouldn't care that much; it's their device and (largely) their money, but this is tantamount to plain breach of promise, something I do care about. Enough even to withdraw my (however insignificant) support to the project if it has to come to that.
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Tor
Active Member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2008
- Messages
- 709
Reading text full of ae, oe, aa, is just horrible in my opinion.mr.miyagi said:Well i'm from denmark too, and yes it would be nice with ÆØÅ, but it's easy to do a workaround:
Æ = ae
Ø = oe
Å = aa
so i dont see it as a problem, i can live with that.
QUOTEpuppydee said:
No maybe not on your keyboard, but they are on a danish keyboard.
Indeed. The problem here is that the physical layout of the keyboard doesn't have room for those. Danish and German keyboards (and some others) are physically different from US keyboards - there are more keys on the right side of the former. On thumb keyboards there's really not much choice - no room.
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