About ÆØÅ

[Karel Jansens]

I'm willing to accept any layout the majority wants, as long as it is a democratic decision. If we want to discuss this again, it should be a Poll on the Community Blog, other language blogs, different language fora. I've avoided to mess about with the discussion on this board about Cosurgi's and Atako's suggestion, because I thought, we would get localised versions, anyway.

dead key provisions

Actually, now that I've spent a moment thinking about this stuff, I find the dead-key solution much better than the compose version.

There has been a discussion and a democratic decision. Go look the poll up, there's absolutely no reason to start all over; your argument that there should be a poll on the blog is just an attempt to get a re-vote, which will only cost more time and is frankly akin to the EU's behaviour in poll results that don'agree with them (i.e. dictatorial BS).

And FYI, the design that won the vote (Kagato's) happens to be not the one I like most. It's still the one that most people prefer and voted for, so that one should go on the keymat without any further discussion.

If not, the "Open" should immediately be removed from "OpenPandora".

 

[mali]

Have you got a link to that poll?

 

[Karel Jansens]

Have you got a link to that poll?

http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showtopic=43762

 

[mali]

So 698/2=349 votes.
Wow.
Votes from people who know enough English to participate in this board.
700 ordered from ED's shop, supposedly most are Germans. The majority ordered at Craig's shop, mixed nationalities, among whom are supposedly some Scandinavians and Turkish. Re-funding will have kicked out an unknown amount of people.

A poll that doesn't favor native English speakers, would be much more democratic, if you ask me.

I'll take Pandora with whichever layout it comes with, but don't say the Community has decided on a layout.

 

[salasq]

Actually, now that I've spent a moment thinking about this stuff, I find the dead-key solution much better than the compose version.

I fail to see an advantage, we'd need a separate dead key for each diacritical, which'd be just plain silly.

Wait! There's an advantage for German - it has just one diactitical -> you could map Compose key as fake dead key for umlauts, and to turn 's' into 'ß'. Voilà!

In which case you'd need exactly as many keypresses for full German alphabet as with ED's design _and_ they'd be more logically positioned.

 

[mali]

Wait! There's an advantage for German - it has just one diactitical -> you could map Compose key as fake dead key for umlauts, and to turn 's' into 'ß'. Voilà!

In which case you'd need exactly as many keypresses for full German alphabet as with ED's design _and_ they'd be more logically positioned.

Sounds good to me If that would be possible to implement in the driver, I would happily use that. I'd just map one of the buttons between the nubs as "universal dead key", then

 

[salasq]

Wait! There's an advantage for German - it has just one diactitical -> you could map Compose key as fake dead key for umlauts, and to turn 's' into 'ß'. Voilà!

In which case you'd need exactly as many keypresses for full German alphabet as with ED's design _and_ they'd be more logically positioned.

Sounds good to me If that would be possible to implement in the driver, I would happily use that. I'd just map one of the buttons between the nubs as "universal dead key", then



I mentioned hijacking one of those for Compose in the other thread just a while ago.

 

[maciek_urbanski]

I'm re-posting this, since there are two concurrent threads about the same thing...

The entire "compose vs non-compose" theme is really a non-issue. <_<

Just make the Fn a dual-function key.

Mode 1:: Press & hold Fn and then press second key - character/function indicated in blue appears/occurs.

Mode 2:: Press & let go Fn and the press second key - diacritics (local language char) shows. To exit from Mode 2 - re-press Fn.

Guys, this is trivial scheme and was used in countless devices... It just works. <_<

 

[mali]

I'm re-posting this, since there are two concurrent threads about the same thing...

The entire "compose vs non-compose" theme is really a non-issue. <_<

Just make the Fn a dual-function key.

Mode 1:: Press & hold Fn and then press second key - character/function indicated in blue appears/occurs.

Mode 2:: Press & let go Fn and the press second key - diacritics (local language char) shows. To exit from Mode 2 - re-press Fn.

Guys, this is trivial scheme and was used in countless devices... It just works. <_<

What if the Fn and the other key are on the same side? Tap and hold is just awkward on a thumb keyboard IMO

 

[Bronek]

I'm going to develop and use bash _shell_ (for terminal, i dont know, maybe the xfce terminal or Eterm, or whatever they will ship it with) but i still want äö, and have nothing against ü etc. For the compose key (example in cosurgi's layout), it will require one to do Fn-Compose(Ctrl)-Fn-¨(K)-a (5 keypresses) to do ä, instead of Fn-something (2 keypresses), so it will be 2.5x harder to write than with ED's layout.

Why don't just you use something like AltGr + a to do ä , i.e. two key presses, like everyone else?

 

[urjaman]

Why don't just you use something like AltGr + a to do ä , i.e. two key presses, like everyone else?

For my current keyboard (layout: Xorg fi, pc105), AltGr + a = ə ... I don't even really know what sign that is. Of course dead key system works eq ¨ + a = ä and that needs only two keypresses on this keyboard, but that would need a full key for ¨ on the pandora (so could just be replaced with Fn-key, thats two keypresses too). Off course i could remap (if it will not be standard) AltGr-a to ä if cosurgi's layout will be used.

 

[Esn]

Eds keypad isn't final. I've already mentioned the comma via email.

That's nice to hear.

But why did you decide on not using either cosurgi's or kagato's keyboard layouts, considering that those were the ones that are clearly the most popular in the community?

 

[peca]

Mode 1:: Press & hold Fn and then press second key - character/function indicated in blue appears/occurs.
Mode 2:: Press & let go Fn and the press second key - diacritics (local language char) shows. To exit from Mode 2 - re-press Fn.

It don't works. We need sticky keys for thumb typing. But something like shift, fn (or alt, fn or ctrl, fn) for altgr or compose can works (I hope). Especially if we have alt and ctrl on shoulder button. Yes I know, there is Cosurgi's opinion that it is hard to reach if typing by fingers on desk. It's just about personal preference.

 

[hlidegp2x]

One example: "Apfel" means "apple" but "Apfel" with two dots on the letter "A" means "apples". However, I am one of the few people affacted by this who could do without a language specific keyboard layout. I wouldn't mind if I had to enter the Umlaute like letters with accents. That is what I do with French accents. It works fine for me.

I heard modern German can use a two-letter to address those issues :

beta => ss
ä => ae
ö => oe
ü => ue

For French, we have some symbol we type as a prefix like `, ^ and ¨

` + [SPACE] => `
^ + [SPACE] => ^
¨ + [SPACE] => ¨
` + a => à
` + e => è
` + o => ò
` + i => ì
^ + u => ù
^ + a => â
^ + e => ê
^ + o => ô
^ + i => î
^ + u => û
¨+ a => ä
¨+ e => ë
¨+ o => ö
¨+ i => ï
¨+ u => ü

But we have no combine way for letter like é (heavily used in French)

 

[bartleby]

Those "Umlaute" are essential in the German language

oh come on, that's just not true. you can easily replace them, just like you would do in a german crossword puzzle: "ä" by "ae", "ö" by "oe", "ü" by ue", "ß" by "ss" (or more accurately, by "sz"). german is my first language, and i never use any of those special characters in emails. back when email was new, it didn't support non-ascii characters properly. so you had to do without them. it's quite easy to get used to. i really don't think that we need those characters on the pandora keyboard, at least not in the first batch. maybe at a later stage, there could be a choice of keymats: azerty, qwertz, you name it. but for now, i think a nice and simple ascii-based qwerty layout will do.

[edit:]

oops, someone beat me to it:

I heard modern German can use a two-letter to address those issues :

beta => ss
ä => ae
ö => oe
ü => ue

not sure about "modern", but yes, you can replace them like that. it's usually done that way in crossword puzzles. (but the german "ß" isnt "beta", it's just the letters "s" and "z" morphed together into one character)

 

[urjaman]

But we have no combine way for letter like é (heavily used in French)

I found q z... writing this with azerty... a way to do this on the X.org azerty. AltGr-? + e ... okay thought that key was M... back to fi...

 

[mali]

Those "Umlaute" are essential in the German language

oh come on, that's just not true. you can easily replace them, just like you would do in a german crossword puzzle: "ä" by "ae", "ö" by "oe", "ü" by ue", "ß" by "ss" (or more accurately, by "sz"). german is my first language, and i never use any of those special characters in emails. back when email was new, it didn't support non-ascii characters properly. so you had to do without them. it's quite easy to get used to. i really don't think that we need those characters on the pandora keyboard, at least not in the first batch. maybe at a later stage, there could be a choice of keymats: azerty, qwertz, you name it. but for now, i think a nice and simple ascii-based qwerty layout will do.
Yes, and you can also skip to capitalise letters :rolleyes:
If it's fine for you, then do it. I don't want to look like a total retard when writing letters/emails.
Was für'n Scheiß.

I heard modern German can use a two-letter to address those issues :

beta => ss
ä => ae
ö => oe
ü => ue

Untrue.

 

[bartleby]

Yes, and you can also skip to capitalise letters

indeed. who needs them?

I don't want to look like a total retard when writing letters/emails.

i think that will depend on what you are saying in those mails rather than on what character set you're using to say it

 

[mali]

Yes, and you can also skip to capitalise letters

indeed. who needs them?

I don't want to look like a total retard when writing letters/emails.

i think that will depend on what you are saying in those mails rather than on what character set you're using to say it

I've to deal mostly with customers. It wouldn't be such a good idea to write like that.

 

[mr.miyagi]

Well i'm from denmark too, and yes it would be nice with ÆØÅ, but it's easy to do a workaround:

Æ = ae
Ø = oe
Å = aa

so i dont see it as a problem, i can live with that.

I don't see any of these ÆØÅ on my standard logitech keyboard just the normal standard keys. They might be on this keyboard somewhere but they're not printed on any of the keys. So really it will be just the same on the Pandora. Everyone types in english on this board so an english keyboard layout would the way to go I think. I wanted to have the playstation button layout printed next to the ABYX buttons so I would know which one was the square, triangle,X or the circle but it won't be possible so we all have to sacrifice something. Would be great since I'll be playing ps1 games on it mostly.

No maybe not on your keyboard, but they are on a danish keyboard.