About ÆØÅ

[White Flame]

All punctuation should be on the keyboard first. If there are any leftover Fn/Shift key combos, only then should language-specific characters be on the keyboard. With as few keys as it has, I think it should just be punctuation/symbols, with a compose key for language-specific characters.

I do not want to have to do complex chording to type |, `, or \ in the Linux shell just because ö and ä were made easy to type instead.

 

[Mithrildor]

I don't care about this all. As long it's not getting annoying. The only special symbols we use are: é (café) and 's ('s avonds, which means in the evening, earlier it always was "des avonds", or used in the plurar of some words ending with a,e,o,y(sometimes) and i (auto's , means cars) and thats it)

We just use basic QWERTY keyboards in the netherlands (and a part of Belgium)

 

[Bosbeetle]

I don't care about this all. As long it's not getting annoying. The only special symbols we use are: é (café) and 's ('s avonds, which means in the evening, earlier it always was "des avonds", or used in the plurar of some words ending with a,e,o,y(sometimes) and i (auto's , means cars) and thats it)

We just use basic QWERTY keyboards in the netherlands (and a part of Belgium)

But also ë ( coëfficient, zeeëgel)

 

[mali]

And yes, I do mind having those letters in blue on the keyboard, because every time I see them, I'm reminded that apparently "é", "è", "ç", etc... were not important enough to be on there. And guess what? I had to type those letters using weird button combos.

You should be a little less pissed, cause "ç" is there

My compromise suggestion:
They should develop localised layouts and offer them for a few extra bucks, like 10€ to 15€. Everyone who doesn't care gets the English version. Everyone else can pick his favorite and transfer the extra money.

 

[CoMiKe]

There's been a lot of talk and conclusions about keyboard layouts, so why not using on of the keyboard layout proposed by the community?

Kagato's one looks very clever to me:

There are some other options in this thread:
http://www.gp32x.de/board/index.php?showtopic=43762

 

[Bronek]

Every keyboard sold in France has an AZERTY layout with accented letters; every keyboard sold in Belgium has a different AZERTY layout; every keyboard sold in the Netherlands has a QWERTY layout with deadkeys for accents; Thai keyboards have a double layout with a modifier key.

Unless they're going to send the Pandora with a different keyboard layout for every country, this layout is indeed favoritism. Admittedly, normally I wouldn't care that much when a manufacturer makes a dumb design decision, but the developers have always tooted the horn of community input, which they seem to blatantly ignore in this case, apparently (that is how it comes over to me, at least) because one of the developers wants his pet layout on the keyboard no matter what.

And yes, I do mind having those letters in blue on the keyboard, because every time I see them, I'm reminded that apparently "é", "è", "ç", etc... were not important enough to be on there. And guess what? I had to type those letters using weird button combos.

+1

 

[mali]

Every keyboard sold in France has an AZERTY layout with accented letters; every keyboard sold in Belgium has a different AZERTY layout; every keyboard sold in the Netherlands has a QWERTY layout with deadkeys for accents; Thai keyboards have a double layout with a modifier key.

I've took the time to google for French layout and what you say is plain wrong. É and è are secondary printings on number-keys, so don't talk BS, please.

Edit:

German:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout

 

[Dutch_Cap]

I don't care about this all. As long it's not getting annoying. The only special symbols we use are: é (café) and 's ('s avonds, which means in the evening, earlier it always was "des avonds", or used in the plurar of some words ending with a,e,o,y(sometimes) and i (auto's , means cars) and thats it)

We just use basic QWERTY keyboards in the netherlands (and a part of Belgium)

But also ë ( coëfficient, zeeëgel)

Don't forget ö (zoöfiel)

And na-apen used to be spelled naäpen. I think there might still be some obscure words that use ä.

 

[MDave]

Karl Jansens is right, there does seem to be heavy bias towards specifc secondary characters just to make it a little more convienient for a percentage of people who use them. Punctuation characters and symbols are FAR more important, especially for people that are going to develop and use the bash terminal, which is used by people world wide. Mali, or anyone else that strongly want these accented symbols, what is the problem with using Compose key? At least THAT supports all the symbols you want, and not just for your language.

 

[hells_dark]

This debate is ridiculous.
The good choice is obvious..

Please, classic keyboard..

 

[mali]

Punctuation characters and symbols are FAR more important, especially for people that are going to develop and use the bash terminal, which is used by people world wide. Mali, or anyone else that strongly want these accented symbols, what is the problem with using Compose key? At least THAT supports all the symbols you want, and not just for your language.

Which punctuation is missing besides the comma? They are no accented symbols, they are letters. I'd rather wait an additional month, till this is sorted out than having an English layout with many blank spaces because someone was so pissed about having a letter on his keyboard that he doesn't use.

 

[urjaman]

Karl Jansens is right, there does seem to be heavy bias towards specifc secondary characters just to make it a little more convienient for a percentage of people who use them. Punctuation characters and symbols are FAR more important, especially for people that are going to develop and use the bash terminal, which is used by people world wide. Mali, or anyone else that strongly want these accented symbols, what is the problem with using Compose key? At least THAT supports all the symbols you want, and not just for your language.

I'm going to develop and use bash _shell_ (for terminal, i dont know, maybe the xfce terminal or Eterm, or whatever they will ship it with) but i still want äö, and have nothing against ü etc. For the compose key (example in cosurgi's layout), it will require one to do Fn-Compose(Ctrl)-Fn-¨(K)-a (5 keypresses) to do ä, instead of Fn-something (2 keypresses), so it will be 2.5x harder to write than with ED's layout.

 

[WizardStan]

Which punctuation is missing besides the comma? They are no accented symbols, they are letters. I'd rather wait an additional month, till this is sorted out than having an English layout with many blank spaces because someone was so pissed about having a letter on his keyboard that he doesn't use.
Posting here as well for emphasis: do you really NEED your umlauts printed on the keyboard? You can still have them as Fn-whatever, the difference is you'll have to remember where they are, instead of hunt-n-peck at the keyboard. This is not hard: I don't look at my cell keys when sending a text message, and I always strive for correct spelling and punctuation: it takes between 2 and 5 key presses to get to an accented character or punctuation, but they're so rarely used it doesn't actually slow me down at all.
As further argument to compromise, if you really don't know where characters map without a printing, I'm sure we can do something such that when you press the Fn, Ctrl, Compose, or AltGr keys, an onscreen keyboard pops up showing you exactly what each key will now do. I don't know how to make this any simpler.

 

[MDave]

Punctuation characters and symbols are FAR more important, especially for people that are going to develop and use the bash terminal, which is used by people world wide. Mali, or anyone else that strongly want these accented symbols, what is the problem with using Compose key? At least THAT supports all the symbols you want, and not just for your language.

Which punctuation is missing besides the comma? They are no accented symbols, they are letters. I'd rather wait an additional month, till this is sorted out than having an English layout with many blank spaces because someone was so pissed about having a letter on his keyboard that he doesn't use.


Sorry, I mixed up the terminology. Like I pointed out in the other thread, there are universally more important keys. I'm sticking to the other thread to discuss this though.

 

[Karel Jansens]

Every keyboard sold in France has an AZERTY layout with accented letters; every keyboard sold in Belgium has a different AZERTY layout; every keyboard sold in the Netherlands has a QWERTY layout with deadkeys for accents; Thai keyboards have a double layout with a modifier key.

I've took the time to google for French layout and what you say is plain wrong. É and è are secondary printings on number-keys, so don't talk BS, please.

No, they're not. The numbers are shifted keys, the accented letters are the primaries (without modifier keys). The picture you provided is just plain wrong: the ALTGR symbols are supposed to be on the right and the accented letters on the left.

Before accusing someone of talking BS, make sure first your "evidence" isn't even bigger BS.

Edit: I just checked the site where that overlay came from (http://www.trantor.fi) and it appears the fault is indeed theirs: For some reason they think the ALTGR modifiers belong on the left side of the keycap, which goes against any convention I know of. The ALTGR key is on the right and so are the symbols it triggers. Still BS of course, but less yours (but you still didn't double-check, so...).

(also fixed the quotes)

 

[Eniko]

For the record, no self respecting dutch person gives a damn about umlauts or accents or any of that. Yes a few words in our language have them but they're a clear exception and nobody ever has or ever will bat an eyelit about omitting them unless you're typing up an essay.

Just sayin', since I saw dutch mentioned as one of the languages that contains some of these symbols, which lends misleading credibility to the argument to have them.

EDIT: It may have been mentioned in another thread but there's so many of these things about the keypad layout now I can't really keep them sorted out in my head.

 

[mali]

No, they're not. The numbers are shifted keys, the accented letters are the primaries (without modifier keys). The picture you provided is just plain wrong: the ALTGR symbols are supposed to be on the right and the accented letters on the left.

Before accusing someone of talking BS, make sure first your "evidence" isn't even bigger BS.

Ok, I see. It's my BS. The Wikipedia version looks different. That's what you get, when you take something google gives you without double-checking :rolleyes:

 

[Karel Jansens]

For the record, no self respecting dutch person gives a damn about umlauts or accents or any of that. Yes a few words in our language have them but they're a clear exception and nobody ever has or ever will bat an eyelit about omitting them unless you're typing up an essay.

Just sayin', since I saw dutch mentioned as one of the languages that contains some of these symbols, which lends misleading credibility to the argument to have them.

EDIT: It may have been mentioned in another thread but there's so many of these things about the keypad layout now I can't really keep them sorted out in my head.

I didn't so much give the Dutch keyboard example because of the actual use of accented letters in Dutch, as to illustrate that Dutch QWERTY is yet another different keyboard layout (mostly a smarter one, with the dead key provisions, which is why I'm using one right now).

In any case, whether you like it or not, your post is yet another argument against ED's Layout From Hell.

 

[mali]

I'm willing to accept any layout the majority wants, as long as it is a democratic decision. If we want to discuss this again, it should be a Poll on the Community Blog, other language blogs, different language fora. I've avoided to mess about with the discussion on this board about Cosurgi's and Atako's suggestion, because I thought, we would get localised versions, anyway.

dead key provisions

Actually, now that I've spent a moment thinking about this stuff, I find the dead-key solution much better than the compose version.

 

[Eniko]

In any case, whether you like it or not, your post is yet another argument against ED's Layout From Hell.
It probably is! Personally I don't see the added value of quick access to letters with umlaut, let alone the ringel-s. Just wanted to make sure people weren't gonna go "see! the dutch use umlauts too!" since that's kinda misleading.