About ÆØÅ

[bartleby]

I've to deal mostly with customers. It wouldn't be such a good idea to write like that.

if your customers can deal with you doing your business correspondence on a handheld gaming device, they will also cope without umlauts

but seriously: as others have pointed out, keyboards are mappable, there is also a software keyboard, and special characters can be created using combinations of keys. so there will be plenty of ways to get those umlauts... all i'm saying is that we don't really need those charactes printed on the keymat - at least not in the first batch, while there is only one keyboard layout that's supposed to suit users from all over the world. most of them won't have any use for "ö"s or "ü"s, so let's keep those for later, diversified batches or optional replacement keypads...

[edited for spelling]

 

[mali]

I've to deal mostly with customers. It wouldn't be such a good idea to write like that.

if your customers can cope with you doing your business correspondence on a handheld gaming device, they will also cope without umlauts

but seriously: as others have pointed out, keyboards are mappable, there is also a software keyboard, and special characters can be created using combinations of keys. all i'm saying is that we don't really need those charactes printed on the keymat - at least not in the first batch, while there is only one keyboard layout that's supposed to suit users from all over the world. most of them won't have any use for "ö"s or "ü"s, so let's keep those for later, diversified batches or optional replacement keypads...

How should my customers know on which device I type that stuff? And don't get me started on that gaming device/ UMPC debate

Anyway, as I've pointed out in post #46, I've already found a solution - to be precise, salasq found it - I can live with. My concern was, that I'd have to press too many keys to get one umlaut, that apparently isn't the case, so I'm fine. I also could live with ED's version even more. Let's see how it turns out.

 

[hlidegp2x]

I heard modern German can use a two-letter to address those issues :

beta => ss
ä => ae
ö => oe
ü => ue

not sure about "modern", but yes, you can replace them like that. it's usually done that way in crossword puzzles. (but the german "ß" isnt "beta", it's just the letters "s" and "z" morphed together into one character)

I just mean when using something like email. I even see some texts in books using this style while I'm not sure why it is used. And "beta", you're totally right, the sign just looks like a "beta" but i didn't remember its exact name.

 

[bartleby]

Anyway, as I've pointed out in post #46, I've already found a solution - to be precise, salasq found it - I can live with.

oh sorry, i had missed that. so we're agreed then: non need to confuse the world with "ö"s on the first batch standard keymat. better start out with a nice and simple ascii-based qwerty layout and use software mapping to say things like "hellöllö" or "ångström". then maybe later we can have proper regionalized keymats for layouts like azerty or qwertz - with other characters like @ etc also placed where they belong in those regional layouts. that "qwerty plus german umlauts" thing proposed by ed just seemed a bit strange...

[edit: spelling again, oh dear]

 

[MiniSinisterMinister]

When I order something abroad, I enter my address using ae, oe etc. because foreign software cannot process umlauts and turns them into unreadable garbage. :lol:

There are some people on the internet who write German with everything in small letters for convenience. I think that would be comparable to using ae, ue etc. People will know what you mean, but it is non-standard. It looks as if you are someone who prefers to make their own rules.

 

[mali]

I've got some friends, who tend to dismiss those rules. I accept that, but it hurts my eyes everytime I read it. In "official" writing, it's a no-go.

 

[Karel Jansens]

And "beta", you're totally right, the sign just looks like a "beta" but i didn't remember its exact name.

In my day we called it "Ringel-S". I was told it's a combination of an ancient s-shape -- written as a "f", can still be seen in old printed texts -- and a "normal" s.

 

[adtbm]

Hi Karel,

in one way i understand your post...

but on the other ? You are ranting, that EDs Keyboard design is german ?

First of all i think, i remember that there was another post, were they (the devs) allready mentioned,
that there will be (maybe) diffrent keymats in diffrent languages available at a later stage.

Second, if i would design such a device like the Pandora, i would ensure, that first the layout of the main, in the project involved developers countries, is available (German, UK english, US english and Turkey) and then produce diffrent mats for the other countries.

Hey wait thats, what all big developers do... they even release the stuff in there countries first, before they ship it somewhere else.

Or do you want to have your layout now forced to be printed on the keymat ? Or a non country specific layout at all ? That everybody has to "Paint" <- (your Quote) there own letters on the keyboard ?

Next is, that some Japanese or Chinese community member comes along and rants that his letters and signs aren't on the layout (Chinese more than 1000 different symbols ?) Or how's about our Russian Cyrilic friends ?

Come on, somewhere a line MUST be drawn. In the end you still have the possibility to connect a Keyboard with a layout in your language.

...or buy another device that will support your language on the keyboard (sorry, that was harsh)


From my point of view, even if they ship the Pandora with old egyptian letters i WILL take it, because a software remapping isn't that hard, and i trust the devs OR the community, that they will find a way to localize the keyboard for the satisfacionary of each individual community member. Otherwise even i have to connect a Keyboard to it, i still wait to hold it in my hands. andora1: :rolleyes:

 

[MiniSinisterMinister]

According to Wikipedia and my PONS picture dictionary the letter ß does not have a name outside the German language. In German it is often called sharp-s because it stands for an unvoiced s-sound after a long vowel or a diphthong.

adtbm's opinion is more or less the general consensus in the German Forum on the matter. Nearly everyone there thinks a German keypad is essential. I find it puzzling because as recently as the pre-orders last year the Pandora was developed as a gaming-handheld with a built-in keyboard in case the odd emulator or software wants to make use of it. Now the UMPC aspect overshadows everything else and it is compared to portable PCs from big manufacturers. The funny thing is, most other handhelds that are of the same size as the Pandora do not have a keyboard at all. And now a standard keyboard is not enough, a localized version is essential? Maybe, just maybe some users overstimate the usefullness of a 4.7" netbook. The keyboard will be similar to that of a calculator and the screen will be tiny. I cannot imagine doin serious work on it. I use my Samsung NC10 instead.

I would rather care about a browser that makes good use of the screen resolution and a good usability of the touchscreen. Developers should integrate a tablet-mode by turning the screen 90° and holding the Pandora vertical. That would be much more useful in real-life situations for most people than a localized keyboard.

 

[mali]

adtbm's opinion is more or less the general consensus in the German Forum on the matter. Nearly everyone there thinks a German keypad is essential. I find it puzzling because as recently as the pre-orders last year the Pandora was developed as a gaming-handheld with a built-in keyboard in case the odd emulator or software wants to make use of it. Now the UMPC aspect overshadows everything else and it is compared to portable PCs from big manufacturers. The funny thing is, most other handhelds that are of the same size as the Pandora do not have a keyboard at all. And now a standard keyboard is not enough, a localized version is essential? Maybe, just maybe some users overstimate the usefullness of a 4.7" netbook. The keyboard will be similar to that of a calculator and the screen will be tiny. I cannot imagine doin serious work on it. I use my Samsung NC10 instead.

It seems, that you still haven't realized, that many people(me included) bought Pandora because of the UMPC aspects besides its gaming friendlyness. My origin is in the internettablettalk community. I've never owned a gaming-only handheld and never will. I need a general computing friendly keyboard. A dead-key solution works for me, though.
And I don't overestimate the usefulness of a 4.3" netbookhandheld. I know exactly what to expect.

 

[maciek_urbanski]

I for one will cancel my Pandora order if they'll proceed with this keyboard.

In this case - close-to-the-metal SGX driver (yup, I'm working on it) will have to wait for Pandora with normal keyboard.

Why so "drastic" measure ?

Basically it plain rude to say "Germans are more important" that Japanese, Russian, Polish, Spanish people. Everyone should be treated equal and live with Latin character set.

Then - those desperate enough should order & change their keymats if they so choose.

I cannot support project that in such stupid way exhibits blatant favoritism towards one nation over the all others.

Why stupid ? Because even Germans should not use their special characters. Their spelling reform made the essentially obsolete.

So those extra characters are not for all German people but for those objecting to use rules of their own reform...

If Pandora that I already paid for via bank transfer (with extra battery, cable, and something for dev. fund) is to arrive with German keyboard - I'm canceling my order & want my money back. :angry:

 

[mali]

Maciek, you should calm down, seriously. And also you don't know anything about German spelling. I don't know if it is a kind of German hate that leads you. BTW, I've got Polish forefarthers and I've got the same "-ski" at the end of my surname. I respect you very much for your knowledge and I'm willing to take any layout you wish, to keep you in the community. But please, calm down.

 

[Klaus]

Why stupid ? Because even Germans should not use their special characters. Their spelling reform made the essentially obsolete.



I'm German, I don't need the special keys and would very much prefer a compose-key-solution, but what you write here is just plain bullcrap. Maybe you should read the article...

 

[Dutch_Cap]

My two cents: I wouldn't buy a second batch Pandora if the keyboard had special characters for my language, let alone another...

 

[Karel Jansens]

Hi Karel,

in one way i understand your post...

but on the other ? You are ranting, that EDs Keyboard design is german ?

First of all i think, i remember that there was another post, were they (the devs) allready mentioned,
that there will be (maybe) diffrent keymats in diffrent languages available at a later stage.

Second, if i would design such a device like the Pandora, i would ensure, that first the layout of the main, in the project involved developers countries, is available (German, UK english, US english and Turkey) and then produce diffrent mats for the other countries.

Hey wait thats, what all big developers do... they even release the stuff in there countries first, before they ship it somewhere else.

Or do you want to have your layout now forced to be printed on the keymat ? Or a non country specific layout at all ? That everybody has to "Paint" <- (your Quote) there own letters on the keyboard ?

Next is, that some Japanese or Chinese community member comes along and rants that his letters and signs aren't on the layout (Chinese more than 1000 different symbols ?) Or how's about our Russian Cyrilic friends ?

Come on, somewhere a line MUST be drawn. In the end you still have the possibility to connect a Keyboard with a layout in your language.

...or buy another device that will support your language on the keyboard (sorry, that was harsh)

From my point of view, even if they ship the Pandora with old egyptian letters i WILL take it, because a software remapping isn't that hard, and i trust the devs OR the community, that they will find a way to localize the keyboard for the satisfacionary of each individual community member. Otherwise even i have to connect a Keyboard to it, i still wait to hold it in my hands. andora1: :rolleyes:


Way to put words into my mouth.

FYI, there was a poll on this forum about the keyboard layout and forum members clearly decided what layout they preferred. And more FYI, the winning layout was not the layout I preferred.

The bottom line is that OpenPandora (notice the "open" there?) has always publicly claimed to put user input first, and ED's layout blatantly violated that premisse by prioritising certain (proved maginal) market segments above the community wishes. I really don't care if it's German, Spanish, Turkish or proto-Sanskrit; it's just favoritism.

You making it sound as if I wanted my personal keyboard layout to get the goahead, is frankly disingeneous and insulting. So f**k off. , but only slightly so...

Maciek, you should calm down, seriously. And also you don't know anything about German spelling. I don't know if it is a kind of German hate that leads you. BTW, I've got Polish forefarthers and I've got the same "-ski" at the end of my surname. I respect you very much for your knowledge and I'm willing to take any layout you wish, to keep you in the community. But please, calm down.

You lost the war. You don't get a layout.


B)


On a serious note: I'm +1 on the cancelling if the "umlauted layout" goes ahead.

That's serious: I will be asking my money back if OpenPandora chooses to ignore user imput on such an important aspect.

 

[mali]

That's serious: I will be asking my money back if OpenPandora chooses to ignore user imput on such an important aspect.

Hmmm...



Request for lock, this thread is way over IMO

 

[MDave]

Compose key and Alt Gr key, supports ALL languages and symbols. Win - Win situation.

 

[Dutch_Cap]

You lost the war. You don't get a layout.
:rolleyes: *sigh* And my grandpa wants his bike back.

Seriously, if you're going to go there, at least make a good joke. I can give you three better ones right now:

• German characters on my keyboard?! It's like D-Day never happened!
• Well, at least we won't need any Hebrew characters, thanks guys!
• Why are those characters so important to you? You don't need any of them to type "lebensraum".

Request for lock, this thread is way over IMO

 

[MiniSinisterMinister]

What regards the German spelling reform maciek got it completely wrong. All four special letters are still in use. The reform just scrapped a lot of irregluar spelling and replaced it by more logical rules. This was supposed to make it easier for young students to learn the correct spelling. However, many older people were so used to the irregular spelling they learnt by heart when they were young that they would have liked to throw in their weight and quash the reform completely and let rather the young ones have problems with spelling than themselves. The biggest problem was that some major newspapers adopted the reform completely and some only specific changes. This led to "arbitrary-spelling" and young people do not know what the correct spelling is because they see different versions in different sources.

I also argued in the German forum some time ago that a German layout would ruin business opportunities for Evil Dragon as it would piss off non-German customers. ED responded that not all customers would get a Pandora with a German keypad.

I do not think that maciek hates Germans. I wouldn't want a French keypad Pandora myself. Even though I like France.

 

[Karel Jansens]

You lost the war. You don't get a layout.
:rolleyes: *sigh* And my grandpa wants his bike back.

Seriously, if you're going to go there, at least make a good joke. I can give you three better ones right now:

• German characters on my keyboard?! It's like D-Day never happened!
• Well, at least we won't need any Hebrew characters, thanks guys!
• Why are those characters so important to you? You don't need any of them to type "lebensraum".

Request for lock, this thread is way over IMO

What can I say? I like John Cleese.

Still, yours are even worse. Rad, dude.

That's serious: I will be asking my money back if OpenPandora chooses to ignore user imput on such an important aspect.

Hmmm...



Request for lock, this thread is way over IMO

Sissy.