4-button Layout Question

[AnonymousTipster]

With regards to the ABXY buttons on the Pandora, which will be the button that you're thumb sits on, and hence is the easiest button to press?

On the xbox and playstation consoles, the bottom button was the default button, which would the most intuitive for selecting items in a menu, say. The right button was usually the 'back' button, which you'd use when you wanted to cancel a command.
On the DS, however, the right button (A) is the 'go' button, and the bottom button ( B ) is the 'back' button.

I think that this is because the DS requires that your thumbs are positioned more vertically than on a console. It's probably mostly to do with ergonomics and which buttons feel most comfortable to press.


What system does the GP2X use, and will the Pandora have a similar ergonomics to either of these layouts?

 

[zacaj]

The GP2X uses every system, although the most dominate is the DS's style.

 

[dsleaf67]

I thought the "DS style" (where right is your go to button) was more of a Japanese thing. For example you check out japanese demos on the PSP and they follow the same standard. Is it the case for other parts of world or just Japan? Maybe some others programmers are starting to adapt it for ergonomics or because its because its what they are used to.

 

[AnonymousTipster]

That's true.
I imported my PSP from Japan, which uses the DS method, but the American and European PSPs use the other method.

It's interesting that the GP2X uses both, depending on the application, though. I'd have thought that there would be one dominant system (probably whatever the firmware UI uses).

I personally prefer the bottom button being the primary one, but it depends on which button is most comfortable on the Pandora (although this might very from person to person). This would also mean that 'X' symbol means confirm (like PSP) and 'B' symbol means back (like xbox).

 

[squeakypants]

A is supposed to be on the right. This is what it should look like:

Of course, that's just the order of the buttons, not the look/shape. I'd rather ABXY than shapes (like PSX). If you don't want to (or can't for legal reasons) do ABXY, definitely do the button numbers. Unless I'm mistaken, on the computer the buttons start with 0, so make sure you have them correspond to their numbers on the computer.

 

[Frogboy]

A is supposed to be on the right. This is what it should look like:

Of course, that's just the order of the buttons, not the look/shape. I'd rather ABXY than shapes (like PSX). If you don't want to (or can't for legal reasons) do ABXY, definitely do the button numbers. Unless I'm mistaken, on the computer the buttons start with 0, so make sure you have them correspond to their numbers on the computer.

The A button on the right is kind of a Nintendo convention that goes back to the original NES. I don't know if anyone else uses this convention. Sega Genesis/Mega Drive used a straight ABC straight across from left to right. Playstation obviously uses symbols and most PC gamepads use numbers. I don't know what the XBox uses. Since there is no usiversal convention, Pandora will likely come up with it's own or borrow the GP2X's for easier porting. Maybe Pandora will come up with something unique like Greek symbols Alpha, Beta, Gamma or something similar in nature. I think the button location pretty much dictates how it will function when using emulators and in original games, the developer will pick what they think is best. Whatever the OS determines is select and back will probably dictate how this works in most original homebrew games.

 

[Spectralist]

Maybe Pandora will come up with something unique like Greek symbols Alpha, Beta, Gamma or something similar in nature.

I hope they go the something unique route. Using ABXY in the GP2X layout will be eternally confusing to someone who is still programmed to think in the SNES layout. And i'm sure the opposite in those more used to the GP2X if they go SNES. Using the greek alphabet or letters that aren't usually used like EIOU. Or even something else entirely would be best. To my taste anyway. Once i get used to a certain layout it takes forever to deprogram me

 

[CoMiKe]

I would like something like:

CODE
---4---
1-----3
---2---


5 for left trigger, 6 for right trigger.

3 for OK, 2 for Back / Cancel, 1 for Cancel.

 

[zacaj]

I think that it should be letters, like ALL the nintendo systems, the GP2X, and the XBox. Also, no matter where the buttons are, a should be go and b should be back, like ALL the Nintendo Systems and the XBox. THere should be some standard of bttons, because its always confusing on the GP2X when someone doesnt use the B go X back that the menu uses. No matter what you use, the triggers HAVE to be L&R. All the systems use L&R, and it makes perfect sense too

 

[Chip]

If we want to establish a menu control convention, we should probably go with the most common. Xbox, Plastation, and Dreamcast use the bottom button as the OK/Enter button. Xbox and Playstation both use the right button as back/cancel. I don't own a PSP, but I assume it works the same as the Playstation.

Have we considered, N, S, E, and W for button labels? I do not believe it has been done before, and you can't get any more intuitive than that. You will never see a button instruction in a game and have to look down and think "which one is that?".


EDIT: Don't know my left from my right.

 

[zacaj]

I thought they used the right button.... NSEW: I like it!

Also: maybe we could have a setting in the OS that lets us set a button as forwards, and a button as back, etc so we could map the buttons however we liked

 

[squeakypants]

Actually, PSX (and all Sony consoles) use it like that too. Lots of games don't, though. If you notice, it's X and O. X means cancel, O means select

 

[Spectralist]

If we want to establish a menu control convention, we should probably go with the most common. Xbox, Plastation, and Dreamcast use the bottom button as the OK/Enter button. Xbox and Playstation both use the right button as back/cancel. I don't own a PSP, but I assume it works the same as the Playstation.

Have we considered, N, S, E, and W for button labels? I do not believe it has been done before, and you can't get any more intuitive than that. You will never see a button instruction in a game and have to look down and think "which one is that?".

EDIT: Don't know my left from my right.


I like the NSEW idea. Although i still prefer the greek idea. The geekiness of it goes well with the homebrew paradigm of the pandora.

As far as convention goes... I doubt many developers will set it up to use the convention if it isn't what they like. Personally if i make anything for pandora it will use right-confirm, bottom-cancel for menus. With the left and bottom buttons being the main action buttons in gameplay. That's what has always seemed most intuitive for me.

 

[AnonymousTipster]

The NSEW idea is quite good.
The main problem with greek characters is that they are non-ascii, which would mean using unicode or adding them to the character set otherwise when you want to render them in text. It'd be simpler to use ASCII characters like 'ABXY' or '1234'

If there were no legal reasons otherwise, I'd like A bottom, B right, X left and Y top, like the XBox controller, simply because it's my controller of choice.

 

[fusion_power]

Typical Homebrew-scene: ten users with ten different opinions. :lol: This was the reason why there never was a useful Button Standard on the GP2X.
Well, because I have big hands, my fingers prefer the top buttons like a or y (gp2x-style). I can live with B as Main Action Button but X for Main usage was always a finger cramp for me, one of the reasons why I've quit playing "Battlejewels" where you do all the action with X and quit etc. with B. :blink:

Now I have a nice 1:1 Pandora...mockup... and I can test every Hand-Position. Because the Action Buttons are so close to the right edge of the Device, my fingers only reach the Y and A buttons (GP2X-style left and top button) good. I also reach the Analog-Pads better than the D-Pad. Would be funny if the left Analog-Pad would switch it's place with the D-Pad :lol:

Whatever. I really hope, there will be a Button standard onto the Pandora. If Emulators need other configs, this can be change of course. But at least the standard should be, that every Pandora software offers more than one way to controll a program (like at the PC), this would solve many problems.

 

[gruso]

My preference is a SNES style layout. For all the systems & games that I know and love, it seems that I'm most comfortable when I know I can play Mario properly, lol. I don't even play it that much, but it's kind of a benchmark for me.

Then again (thinking out loud), that's probably more about gamepad design than button configuration. SNES was spesh in that regard. You just can't roll your thumb between Run and Jump the same way on Xbox or GP2X.

 

[CoMiKe]

Any layout that is standard for all applications is valid for me.

I mean, don't let the Pandora suffer from different button layouts like the GP2X.

 

[Prometheus]

I rather like the SNES' and DS' ways of doing things, with regard to button-standards, myself.

Although i still prefer the greek idea. The geekiness of it goes well with the homebrew paradigm of the pandora.

Not to mention the origin of the name Pandora.

 

[Game_over]

For Playstation it used to been like this:

US/ Other Countries ("SCEA" Standard)
X- Select
O- Cancel

Japan/ Other Countries ("SCEI" Standard)
O- Select
X- Cancel

It's been like that for a while. Now this was mainly followed by first and second party publishers, with the exception of third party publishers like Square-Enix, Konami, and Capcom; who also followed it.

Now it just a matter of comfort, for example, Metal Gear Solid 4 Will default to the SCEA standard.

 

[Exophase]

DS style. A lot of older PS1 games used this style too, and later on when they stopped doing so I would sometimes change it if it lets me. I'm still used to either for PS2 games where I stopped bothering to change it.

I think the DS/SNES/early PS1/Japanese format (right button = OK, bottom button = cancel) is the most familiar for a lot of us and so is the safest bet. I'll probably continue to go for this in my emulators.

Although, what would be a kind of neat way to develop "standard" controls is to have some kind of OS determined way of returning what buttons are supposed to do certain things. Then you just have to react to OK, cancel, back, etc, and they could be configured by a global program. It wouldn't even really have to be OS-centric, maybe could be installed some other way. What is the opinion on something like this?