Your Holy gaming Grail for Pandora 2..?

[Prometheus]

to Prometheus: but janitors get all those shiny keys!

We also get to clean up poop.

 

[SNESFAN]

I see people on here act like they have more pull in what goes down than others... we're all just customers


and I was saying that when the finger was being pointed at me

nobody was "pointing finger"(s) at you, and whoever these fictitious people are who embody those things you mentioned above, certainly have yet to post in this thread..,

.... yes they were


wizardstan... you are now imaginary

You say "how about this..." but it isn't your position to make any such compromise.

 

[ImmaculateChimp]

hmm.....umm...nope....I just don't see it.. :huh: how does any of that indicate that WizardStan is imaginary?

 

[SNESFAN]

the situation was... he perceived me saying "how bout this" as me trying to somehow meet him halfway


where I am in no position to do so because... I'm literally in no position to do so... I'm a customer


I meant it more as a "throw this idea out there", not a "meet you in the middle"


...and here's the real twist to it.. in the page before he said this

heck, I even bowed to you and suggested that it could be the primary!

but agian... I understood, we're just talking hypothecticals

 

[Binky]

Just chiming in: A P2 forum area would be good, as long as it carried a big "hypothetically brainstorming" banner to stop people assuming it was coming out in Two Months time.

 

[vcoleiro1]

I don't think you could find one persobn on this forum, who would even for a second think a new Pandora could come out any where near that quickly given our past experience - lol

 

[Binky]

But someone randomly Googling for "handheld emulator" might assume something similar, and not buy Pandora(1) as a result.

 

[vcoleiro1]

Thats a point I guess. Dont know what wording you would use though

 

[WizardStan]

but agian... I understood, we're just talking hypothecticals

No, your situation was hypothetical, a situation that you, being not Craig, can't actually make happen.


My situation is the very real situation of Craig right now suggesting that he is planning radical design changes that would either make Linux impossible or uninteresting on the Pandora 2. I wasn't trying to compromise with you, I was trying to explain to you why the current, very real, situation is dangerous, and why Craig (who you said was absolutely doing the right thing) was wrong.


If you cannot understand the difference between these and still think that I'm speaking out of turn in voicing my concerns, then I'm sorry, but I think there is something very wrong with the way you think.


edit: yes, that's an ad hominem. I'm starting to get very frustrated with these circles.

 

[SNESFAN]

Then stop responding to me if I'm making you that frustrated.


Maybe you see it as talking in circles because you only see one path for this to go down, and you are defending your stance with your own stance...


Me and u are two completely different markets, we may agree with certain bullet points but at our roots we are different.


While you actually seem to be getting upset I don't agree with all your points I'm equally as frusterated you don't agree with mine.


I would still not say suggesting and very real in the same sentance though.


Calm down, enjoy your hobby, if you enjoy argueing then maybe you are enjoying yourself. If you are freaking out about Craig doing basically the same thing we do.... designing and dreaming of the future, then I see a grim fate in your near future.... we are talking about the possible road something may go down potentially several years from now.


Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk

 

[WizardStan]

I'm getting frustrated because you aren't even acknowledging that the concerns are in any way valid. You're being dismissive and it is insulting.


I have only ever had one key point in this, everything else I've said has been trying to wrap my brain around why you are opposed to this one important thing.


The other day, in this very thread, Craig said that they may have no choice but to drop Linux support depending on the SoC they use. This flies in the face of reality that shows that Linux support is greater for ARM processors now than it was 4 years ago, and it would take either effort or pure apathy and bad luck to choose one which wouldn't be mostly backwards compatible with the current Pandora, and you encouraged him for this post.


This leads to the one thing I have been saying from the start, and it is a very simple yes or no question: do you or do you not believe that someone who has followed this project faithfully for four years, through all the good and the bad, has contributed to its progress, should be concerned that Craig is planning on making a device, calling it a successor, and marketing it to an entirely new community without any regards for the existing community and the hard work that was put into the first one?

 

[SNESFAN]

I'm being dimissive to your concern with the same level dismissiveness as that of whenever this whole android topic comes up, same stupid video, support is comming or just wait, if the community wants it they will make and support... sound familiar?


Anyway I gave the same money and waited just as long so my interests should be equally as important as anyone else's... barring certain exceptions of course.


So yes to that question


If what you say is true about almost certain support unless he just happens to stumble apon one without backwards support or even targets said Soc. Then support should be a non issue ... both projects should be done in the same timeframe as long as he acknoledges linux's existance and gives boards to the ones capable and say make it happen.... then you would have two options.


Or am I still missing it?


Guarenteeing support? Funded support? Rma-able support? We promise to continue working on it support? What is your definition of official support?


Still waiting on my instant on stndby and 3.0 kernel with the current official support though... how much is enough?


Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk

 

[TrashyMG]

Your still missing it.


Just collecting my rage here:


Wizardstan didn't just give the same money as the rest of us, but spent time contributing to the development of our current Operating System and many other projects. And yes he does deserve extra sway on these forums.


I suggest if you really want Android on the Pandora 2, take the time you have been arguing here and help work on the Droidora project being currently worked on...

 

[craigix]

I'm getting frustrated because you aren't even acknowledging that the concerns are in any way valid. You're being dismissive and it is insulting.


I have only ever had one key point in this, everything else I've said has been trying to wrap my brain around why you are opposed to this one important thing.


The other day, in this very thread, Craig said that they may have no choice but to drop Linux support depending on the SoC they use. This flies in the face of reality that shows that Linux support is greater for ARM processors now than it was 4 years ago, and it would take either effort or pure apathy and bad luck to choose one which wouldn't be mostly backwards compatible with the current Pandora, and you encouraged him for this post.


This leads to the one thing I have been saying from the start, and it is a very simple yes or no question: do you or do you not believe that someone who has followed this project faithfully for four years, through all the good and the bad, has contributed to its progress, should be concerned that Craig is planning on making a device, calling it a successor, and marketing it to an entirely new community without any regards for the existing community and the hard work that was put into the first one?

Will you please stop making things up and claiming I've said them. Here is what I've said, several times over:


Linux may be in a worse position than on the current Pandora due to lack of cooperation from next gen SoC manufacturers. I cannot guarantee we will be able to get adequate support. You may want to speak to some of the Pandora OS developers to understand what a difficult situation the OMAP3 was, and how much work it was - and if they think they would be willing to do it all over again.


You possibly don't realise what a nightmare we had getting documents, support etc. for the OMAP3 and this was with someone on the 'inside' at TI.


We don't believe we will have that sort of assistance again.


We suspect we will just be given a working Android build and told 'that's it'.


I've also said numerous times the device will be as open as it can be, but I cannot know the situation with things like 3D drivers this time, wifi, BT etc.


The initial version of the P2 may ship with *just* Android as we won't have had the time or have been able to find the developers willing to port linux to it. The Linux situation on the initial release of the P2 I'd estimate will be far FAR worse than the P1 situation.


The radical redesign of the P2 is complex, only on the drawing board, and when you see it you will understand the situation a lot more.


We don't really want to go in to preorders, huge forum arguments, painting the bike shed etc. this time.


I'd rather do an iCP and project3 and just have it available right away, we are planning to do this. I am putting my own money behind it again.


I have other investments outside this bubble which let me pay for these things.

 

[WizardStan]

I'm being dimissive to your concern with the same level dismissiveness as that of whenever this whole android topic comes up, same stupid video, support is comming or just wait, if the community wants it they will make and support... sound familiar?

No, it doesn't sound familiar because it's a different situation entirely. In the case of the Pandora 1, you want support added for something that doesn't currently have support, something which I would be entirely in favour of happening but have no interest in working on myself. Kudos if it actually works out, and I will sing high praises when it finally reaches a point that it meets your desires, seriously, but it would require effort. If I've been dismissive, it's because of that effort, not because of the goal. No one has ever said what you want is stupid.


In the case of the Pandora 2, the fear is shutting out the already existing support that would be done for them at almost no work if he'd just listen to what people are trying to tell him. You are being dismissive of the situation, in essence you are telling me that it is stupid that I should even think about such a thing.

Guarenteeing support? Funded support? Rma-able support? We promise to continue working on it support? What is your definition of official support?

I've said this twice now, all OPT has to do is exactly what they're doing now: mention Angstrom, host it, offer it directly as a choice (either primary or alternative, whatever). Mention it in the feature list and in any press releases. No actual work needs to be done by Craig, the community is doing most of the effort. All he has to do is take that effort into consideration when the time comes to choose a SoC. Given a choice between several processors that does what he wants for the price he is looking for, ask for advice from the community on which would also offer Linux support. That's it! Allay the fears that Craig is black boxing this with no consideration for backwards compatibility, that's all I've been asking.

Will you please stop making things up and claiming I've said them. Here is what I've said, several times over:

I'm not making things up. This is exactly what you said:

Good luck even getting alternative drivers for obscure Linux builds these days, I can't see the SoC manufacturers even answering your emails - we barely got what we needed for the Pandora1 back when Android didn't even exist.

This is entirely contrary to the situation. Linux support for ARM SoCs is even stronger now than it was 4 years ago, and that is probably greatly in part to the weight of Google requesting open source drivers for Android. It's like you are trying to make excuses to avoid the Linux crowd entirely, and that's what feels so wrong about the statements you've made on this, that you are intentionally trying to shut out the core audience that has followed the Pandora for four years. Whether that is what you meant or not, that is what it sounds like. I'm not alone in this assessment.

 

[Binky]

@Craig if we will only understand when we see the design, why can't we see it?


Although simple is good, a true Pandora successor will have palmtop functionality too. android isn't really in a state to supply that atm.


---


Would it be possible to take the android core (hardware drivers, things that make apps work) and port a Pandora2-specific interface layer (inc desktop) and PND support?


Then we get something which is much closer to real Linux, but all the hardware compatibility is done for us.

 

[craigix]

This is entirely contrary to the situation. Linux support for ARM SoCs is even stronger now than it was 4 years ago, and that is probably greatly in part to the weight of Google requesting open source drivers for Android. It's like you are trying to make excuses to avoid the Linux crowd entirely, and that's what feels so wrong about the statements you've made on this, that you are intentionally trying to shut out the core audience that has followed the Pandora for four years. Whether that is what you meant or not, that is what it sounds like. I'm not alone in this assessment.

No, please read this carefully:


We cannot just click our fingers and have a custom linux build made for the Pandora2. Making the current Pandora linux was a 4 year unfinished nightmare.


What I am saying is 'hope' is all you have that a working quality build for a P2 will ever happen.


Google getting drivers for Android is not the issue. All that means is that the hardware will work fantastically when using Android on the P2.


They require someone to put them in to any Pandora2 linux build as well as hundreds of other man hours in getting everything else to work.


We launched the P1 with a hacked Linux build which just about worked.


The P2 may be launched with a fantastically working Android build but with a Linux build in a very poor state.


That's all I keep saying.


I've already said the Pandora2, if it happens, will retain the exact same functionality of the P1, ie Keyboard, nubs, dpad etc.

 

[fusion_power]

Then lets hope all the Android Apps will also support Keyboard, nubs, D-Pad etc...


I don't like all these touchscreen only Games, very bad trend imho. I'm not sure if a "Pandora 2" can instantly support default android apps and games with physical controls and keyboard. Would be bad if every app needs manual tweaks like it has to be done for the iControlpad.


Instant Pandora controls support for (most of the) Android Apps would be the burner, pretty neat selling argument if you ask me.

 

[SNESFAN]

As much as im not listening and dismissing you, you seem to be doing yhe same to Craig, you are underestimateing or flat out rejecting his concerns of it taking more effort or time than you think.


Straight up questions for you... yes or no... if Craig makes a strong effort to find a chipset that supports both OS's but even in an optimum support level, linux is not ready when the hardware and android is, should that hold up release to the public?


What if its the other way around if android was the one that was holding it up and Linux was good to go... should it ship without or remove support for it?


Either situation, should offial support and advertisement be added later if it was in a solid workable state?


Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk

 

[craigix]

Maybe I should also ask, Wizardstan, are you volunteering to do some of the enormous amount of work involved? Or are you hoping someone else will do it?