Wtf? Ok Who Listed This One....

[paulguy]

If I was in the position to sell a bunch of pandoras and I made a good buck off them, I'd donate a percantage to OpenPandora.

I'm honestly thinking of donating a decent amount of money, myself, but not really sure how to go about it... would it be effective to paypal ~$1000 or would I be better to do a money transfer of some sort? Would that even make a dent in the debts and be worth it? I honestly want to see them breaking even on the Pandora as soon as possible because I'd hate to see them go under. I'm looking forward to Pandora 2 in a few years because honestly, I doubt the Pandora will sell at all in ~5 years if not even sooner... at the moment it's even a bit of a hard sell for a good few people because of the delays (And the passing of technology)... I imagine if it was out when planned, they'd be planning a pandora 2 by now. I'm not saying the pandora is bad or anything like that. I find it great for my needs, but in the interest of staying competitive, it might be good to not wait the 5+ years some people have considered before a second pandora.

 

[apink]

Capitalism is the reason why America remains a savage place to live. And I say that as a life long American. This pisses me off for largely the same reason that it pisses me off when the rich get unearned, undeserved tax breaks for having screwed the rest of us over.

Beautifully said.

True that. And true that. But this is not to say that Jumpman is deserving of a roasting here. We all play the game. His game is just more visible right now.

The easy and natural tendancy when we see something as savage as capitalism is to come out with our "lousy so and so" attack. What's really called for is for all of us to walk in the direction of a new paradigm. One less savage, more life-giving. Lots of us are trying. But lets also remember that even those of us who are trying the hardest still need to make a buck in the current paradigm in order to put food on the table, and the current paradigm dictates that in order to make a buck you take advantage of those below.

Jumpman didn't make the rules. Give him a break.

 

[God Ginrai]

I have to say I'm with Mali on this one. Just because Jumpman was selling units on eBay doesn't mean that he is "scum." He took 4 times the risk as any standard customer because he paid for 4 units instead of one. He has supported this project and I think that any of you who believe he is scum are even lower scum than you believe him to be. You have every right to be jealous of him, but such harsh treatment is unacceptable.

Also, on another note, authoreyes: Your posts seem to suggest that you believe he has purchased his Pandoras with the sole intent of selling them. IIRC, Jumpman mentioned that he would like to keep one.

-God Ginrai

 

[Iorgy77]

Your posts seem to suggest that you believe he has purchased his Pandoras with the sole intent of selling them.

err... he did buy them so he could sell them. I have nothing against him doing it, but to cheer him on as some kind of hero is messed up. At the very least he is a douche. He knew the first batch was limited, he got in quick and purchased more than one to make a profit off the limited places. People are still waiting who have more to contribute to the user base than selfish ebay profiteering.

He is no different to a ticket scalper... As if making a living from it excuses it... they are douches too.

 

[bustaballs]

I don't understand the hate. If someone wants to sell something they own and someone else is willing to give them what they think is a fair price, there's not much there to comment on. Supply and demand.

Capitalism is the reason why America remains a savage place to live. And I say that as a life long American. This pisses me off for largely the same reason that it pisses me off when the rich get unearned, undeserved tax breaks for having screwed the rest of us over.

Sure it's not terribly rational, but it's a dick move to sell them on eBay whilst the rest of us have to wait for our number to come up. It's kind of depressing to think that I'd be several units closer if people were hocking them online for outrageous sums of money.

Coincidentally capitalism is also the reason why I've been working at this job since a bit before I pre-ordered and have yet to be fully paid for a single day's worth of work. And why they've been stealing out of my paychecks, refusing to pay the overtime they're obligated to pay and generally behaving like dicks.

Capitalist apologistics isn't fundamentally any stronger a position than the people that think it's a dick move. And probably it's a worse one given the tendency to reward bad behaviour with piles of cash.

You seem to have zero understanding of capitalism. While America was based on capitalism, it has adopted many socialist and corporatist policies since the early-to-mid 1800s. So many, in fact, that most people who actually understand what free markets are would never suggest that current day America is a capitalist system. Free markets create a level playing field for everyone and do not judge or discriminate from person to person. Anti-fraud laws prevent companies from "ripping off" consumers. I recommend some reading material. To start off, pick up "Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt. After that, pick up any book by that same author, Ludwig Von Mises, Friedrich Hayek, or Murray Rothbard. You can also check out classical material from Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine. For modern day economics reading, I suggest Peter Schiff (the guy that predicted the depression) or Ron Paul.

 

[WizardStan]

He knew the first batch was limited, he got in quick and purchased more than one to make a profit off the limited places.

No he didn't, because it wasn't!
The original pre-order run was only going to be 3000. Interest was higher than anticipated, so they started accepting orders beyond the initial 3000, ending up with about 3800. If they had gotten more orders, they would have made more. After pre-orders were "closed", there were still extra units that they were ordering that were not yet claimed. On going, people have been canceling, freeing up spots. In fact, it was only recently, just before they started shipping, that people started mentioning that they had tried to get in on the preorder and told there weren't any left.
In short, anyone who wanted to pre-order a Pandora had 18 months to do so, and anyone who purchased multiple, especially those who purchased before the final decision to cap at 4000, cannot successfully be argued to have taken any from a "limited" number of places.
If you want to call him a douche, there are many arguments you could use. That he has in any way prevented someone else who would otherwise have been getting one from the first batch is not one of them. It is exactly the opposite: because he ordered multiple, he's able to sell on ebay to those that really really want one but for some reason did not purchase during the 18 months that pre-orders were still available.

 

[God Ginrai]

Your posts seem to suggest that you believe he has purchased his Pandoras with the sole intent of selling them.

err... he did buy them so he could sell them. I have nothing against him doing it, but to cheer him on as some kind of hero is messed up. At the very least he is a douche. He knew the first batch was limited, he got in quick and purchased more than one to make a profit off the limited places. People are still waiting who have more to contribute to the user base than selfish ebay profiteering.

He is no different to a ticket scalper... As if making a living from it excuses it... they are douches too.

First of all, there was a second sentence to that thought that suggested that I believe he intended to keep one of them. Second of all, you completely ignored the word "sole." I didn't say he didn't purchase them so he could sell them. I said it was not his sole intent. I took the liberty of looking up the word for you: http://www.tfd.com/sole

sole
adj.
1. Being the only one: the sole survivor of the crash.
2. Of or relating to only one individual or group; exclusive: The court has the sole right to decide.
3. Law Single; unmarried.

In the future, I would appreciate it if you would interpret my words the way they are written instead of the way you want them to be.

-God Ginrai

 

[Iorgy77]

He knew the first batch was limited, he got in quick and purchased more than one to make a profit off the limited places.

No he didn't, because it wasn't!
The original pre-order run was only going to be 3000.

Sounds like a limit to me?

Anything that happened after in regards to limits is irrelevant because this was the limit in place at the time of ordering.

Jumpman is a scalper/douche, plain and simple, he would not have bought four of them if there wasnt a limit in place and availability wasnt going to be an issue, there would be no profit to make from selling them on ebay.

Just because I think he is a douche it doesnt mean he doesnt deserve his money, he took a risk and will get his dividends from it. I feel no ill will towards him for doing it.. some of my best friends are douches.

Also the people buying them from him do deserve to be laughed at...

@God Ginrai: He purchased 3 pandoras with the sole intent of selling them.
happy now?

 

[WizardStan]

Sounds like a limit to me?

Anything that happened after in regards to limits is irrelevant because this was the limit in place at the time of ordering.

Did you miss the part where I said the original limit was lifted allowing as many orders as would come in to be accepted? Because that's what happened. There was no limit on the number imposed until several days after the preorder was opened, and even that limit wasn't reached until just before the Pandora started shipping. To reiterate: he did not steal a spot and prevent someone from obtaining one because the orders have effectively been entirely open until recently.

 

[Iorgy77]

Sounds like a limit to me?

Anything that happened after in regards to limits is irrelevant because this was the limit in place at the time of ordering.

Did you miss the part where I said the original limit was lifted allowing as many orders as would come in to be accepted? Because that's what happened. There was no limit on the number imposed until several days after the preorder was opened, and even that limit wasn't reached until just before the Pandora started shipping. To reiterate: he did not steal a spot and prevent someone from obtaining one because the orders have effectively been entirely open until recently.

I was not arguing that point at all. The point I was trying to make was regarding his intentions. There was a limit in place when he pre-ordered, this is the reason he ordered the 3 extra to rob them from people who actually wanted one and make profit on ebay.

When I mentioned "the people waiting" I meant the people who ordered after him and are still waiting.

 

[Prometheus]

Weren't jumpman's orders spread throughout the queue? I seem to recall him repeatedly making this very clear over the last year-and-a-half...

 

[Iorgy77]

He already has 4 in his posession, so they must have been ordered on day one.

He mentioned having more coming from 3000 onwards.

 

[jonjandran]

Capitalism is the reason why America remains a savage place to live. And I say that as a life long American. This pisses me off for largely the same reason that it pisses me off when the rich get unearned, undeserved tax breaks for having screwed the rest of us over.

Obviously you know nothing of how taxes work in the US either. The rich pay the MAJORITY of the taxes and are taxed at a rate near 40%. Meanwhile the poor pay no taxes and even get refunds for doing absolutely nothing but having kids and not working.

Yes some rich people try to manipulate the system. But tax records are open to the public for most rich people and when reviewed it is downright amazing how much taxes they pay.

Please enlighten yourself before posting nonsense.

 

[Creature XL]

Sounds like a limit to me?

Anything that happened after in regards to limits is irrelevant because this was the limit in place at the time of ordering.

Did you miss the part where I said the original limit was lifted allowing as many orders as would come in to be accepted? Because that's what happened. There was no limit on the number imposed until several days after the preorder was opened, and even that limit wasn't reached until just before the Pandora started shipping. To reiterate: he did not steal a spot and prevent someone from obtaining one because the orders have effectively been entirely open until recently.

Just a bit of detail: He said he bought several spread over the 4000. So he might got one or two in the first hour and the other 2 after all teh cancelling. At this point he knew about the 4000 limit and he MIGHT have bought them because of the limit. I said: he MIGHT. In my last post on this topic I asked (him) a question which would clear up his intentions.

After all, I have no problem with it. Just wanted to make this fact clear

 

[Mjlink]

Weren't jumpman's orders spread throughout the queue? I seem to recall him repeatedly making this very clear over the last year-and-a-half...

I remember this too, however, in the eyes of OP, it would be more fiscally prudent to send out all of his units at once, because I'm sure Craig & Co. are taking a hit on shipping. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would put money on me being correct. I placed my initial order for a Pandora alone, I then went through the purchase flow a second time for accessories and the Dev Fund. I did this because the server was acting sporadically due to the load of orders happening. Both orders were later combined especially once the banking fiasco went down. The fact he put up all the money the 2nd time shows some guts.

I considered buying two units to do the exact same thing myself. I will say this, I had a friend that I turned onto a Pandora a little over a month ago. He's in the tail end of the first batch. It was a risk to shell out $1000+ for 4 Pandoras. But there are still people canceling orders. If pre-orders would have happened a month or two later and I didn't recently buy a GP2X F200/cradle/tv-out/speakers/flatscreen etc, I would have bought two.

I used to sell over $10,000/month on Ebay, so if you find something like the Pandora and you are in the know, you can capitalize on it.

I don't consider this to be like scalping, also something that is now enthused by TicketMaster as they will auction your seats for you. This was a risk that was supposed to happen in two months. 600 days later to ship. Risk.

Peace & Pandora,

Link

 

[Mjlink]

Capitalism is the reason why America remains a savage place to live. And I say that as a life long American. This pisses me off for largely the same reason that it pisses me off when the rich get unearned, undeserved tax breaks for having screwed the rest of us over.

Obviously you know nothing of how taxes work in the US either. The rich pay the MAJORITY of the taxes and are taxed at a rate near 40%. Meanwhile the poor pay no taxes and even get refunds for doing absolutely nothing but having kids and not working.

Yes some rich people try to manipulate the system. But tax records are open to the public for most rich people and when reviewed it is downright amazing how much taxes they pay.

Please enlighten yourself before posting nonsense.

Smart rich people form corporations. Its the legal form of money laundering. Exxon-Mobile is a perfect example of how the working class of America get fleeced by multi-national corporations that make record profits.

Banks aren't setup to protect the working class money. Where did billions of bailout money go? Look at GM... bailed out by the taxpayer. Who is bailing out the banks? The taxpayer. Healthcare? God we're fucked.

So you want to take more money from poor people popping out kids doing nothing? How about giving them a job, rather than outsourcing EVERYTHING?

We are on our way to becoming a 3rd world country in the US of A. Our infrastructure maintenance/overhaul could employ 1000s that are out of work from the greedy developers looking to rape our land, water, and wildlife.

Less than 300 People on the planet have more money than 1/2 the entire global population.

 

[Creature XL]

This thread looks like the right place.
Why is everybody talking of "Taking risks"?
If Pandora would have failed, or will fail(!) OPT makes even more debts and pay us our money back.
So, I can't see the risk.

And about merging orders, except add-on stuff, that would be the biggest heap of BS I have ever seen. Really.
If that were possible, I could refund my order and ask someone who is nearer to the front to order one from me. I owuld have to pay some bucks more, however, it owul dbe better then to wait 2-5 month.

 

[apink]

The rich pay the MAJORITY of the taxes and are taxed at a rate near 40%. Meanwhile the poor pay no taxes and even get refunds for doing absolutely nothing but having kids and not working.

Yes some rich people try to manipulate the system. But tax records are open to the public for most rich people and when reviewed it is downright amazing how much taxes they pay.

Please enlighten yourself before posting nonsense.

After twenty minutes (or so) of research:

-The income tax rate for the rich is in fact near 40%. It was actually 35% in 2010, increasing to 39% in 2011. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States Note that to be in this tax rate you are making over $370,000 per year, thus more than a thousand a day for each day of the year. Also note that this rate is fairly low compared to the past hundred years in the US. Top income tax rates have been above 50% for much of the last century and have been as high as 90%. (See data table further down on same link above.)



-The long-term capitol gains tax rate is much lower: 15% in 2010 going up to 20% in 2011. Thus the tax rate that a Bill Gates and a Warren Buffet pay on their dividends (the majority of their income) is comparable to the income tax rate of someone making $34,000 a year. This is of course before charitable donations are taken into account, which can bring the effective rate down even more.

-Social security taxes add additional burden, but mostly to income below $107,000. The rate is effectively 7.65% for employees and 15.3% for self-employed people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_(United_States)#Tax_on_wages_and_self-employment_income

-The corporate tax burden has fallen dramatically since WWII in this country, from 39% in 1943 to under 10% today.

Yes the rich pay a majority in income taxes. But they also make a majority in income. Given the choice to pay 35% on a thousand a day or 15% on a thousand a month, I think I might choose the higher income even though it incurs a higher tax rate.

 

[mali]

This thread is about to reach a state where it's better suited for the Off Topic section, imo. If at all.

 

[paulguy]

I'm thinking along the lines of authoreyes really in that this kinda makes the pandora in to a bit of a prostitute... It had a kinda warm, fuzzy feeling to the whole project but stuff like this kinda sullies the whole thing a bit. It lost the "purity" as author said and just became just another money-making scheme like the people who do the same with new consoles, though they're already huge corporate cash-cows so there's nothing to corrupt.